Mormon Temple in Rome, happening today

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Hi Parker - If temple open houses are for LDS children then why do so many non-LDS get invitations from neighbors, co-workers, and friends?
Lax16,

What I wrote was that they are for LDS children and for non-LDS people (which includes adults and children who are non-LDS). I’ve never given out an invitation to one, but I assume those who have done so wanted their non-LDS friend to know they were invited to see inside so they would have a basic understanding about the temples and not think there is some “mystery” about them or about what happens within those temples after they are dedicated.
I can’t tell you how many non-members were riding the shuttle bus up to the Draper temple with their LDS neighbors. Also, I know a whole middle school from a Catholic school that went on a field trip there. The school was invited by an LDS family. That’s how I know about the punch and cookies - it was served to them.
Like I had written, the cookies seem to be for the children who attend, whether LDS or non-LDS. We lived in Atlanta during the open house for that temple, and I don’t remember any refreshments being served there at that time. I think the cookies are a “Utah” thing.
Obviously, I am not asking your permission if I should go or not. My point is, and was, that touring buildings is not the best way to become educated about one’s religion. I am sure that you must agree with that on some level?
Yes, but we’re talking about buildings that are going to become closed to the public, and that the buzz surrounding “what goes on inside” is often negative. The open houses seek to dispel that negativity by openness and by allowing people to “see” for themselves.
Once again, you can say that it doesn’t matter about the extravagance of the building. I disagree. It was touted all over town about the imported limestone, chandeliers, etc etc etc. for the Draper temple. The hype was incredible! And like I said before, my “friend” invited me to see the staircase and the chandelier at the Daybreak area temple. She is the same “friend” that invited the Catholic school children to attend.
I didn’t hear the hype you heard. I don’t know about the imported limestone (fine that it was imported–whatever). I did hear someone mention the staircase and the chandelier as being something to watch for as being unique. They weren’t a big deal to me.

I like the curiosity of children. I think it’s refreshing.
Obviously, temple open houses are not for LDS only. And I am assuming that the LDS church is putting in the visitor center in Rome to catch some visitors from the Vatican.
I sincerely doubt that would be the intent. A visitor center or welcome center is for various purposes, again bearing in mind that non-LDS can only go into a “waiting room” within an LDS temple after it’s dedicated, so a visitor center or welcome center makes perfect sense to me. Some tourists have curiosity about the unique building they are seeing.
Can you please explain the need for so many temples in Utah that are so close to each other? What are the hours of operation?
The hours of operation are Tue-Sat 6:00 am to 10:00 pm, and the reason more are built when they are needed in the Salt Lake City area is to handle “peak loads” and to handle “temple marriages” within reasonable hours and not have a lot of waiting time.
So I have to say the Mormons like to build fancy temples (how about the San Diego one visible from the freeway?) To say that it is only for LDS children and that no one cares about the beauty or the impressiveness of it all is just not right.
They are near freeways for easy access, and are often in an elevated location so that the eyes of those who see them are “lifted” heavenward and because the Old Testament speaks so very often about the “mountain of the Lord” or other such phrases.
 
So, your source appears to be a letter to the editor in Utah, with no confirmation.
I honestly believe that if it really happened in the Chapel, many Catholics or regular tourists would have expressed rightful indignation and it would have made headlines, even if the action was legal.
Hi Todd - I cited the source as it is included at the end of the article.
Where would it make actual news? Mormon missionaries at the Sistine Chapel would make the news? Ha!
 
So, your source appears to be a letter to the editor in Utah, with no confirmation.
I honestly believe that if it really happened in the Chapel, many Catholics or regular tourists would have expressed rightful indignation and it would have made headlines, even if the action was legal.
A lot goes on in the Vatican, and for the most part, there is no reason for Mormons to notice anything that isn’t happening to themselves. This is human nature.

At any rate, I heard first-hand accounts of people who live and work at the Vatican, and who were more than a little miffed. But, it was a long time ago, and all has been forgiven long ago as well.

I sometimes don’t think Mormons realize how connected we are. There are no isolated dioceses or parishes. What happens in Rome doesn’t stay in Rome. 😃
 
Rebecca, and if it happened, being miffed is a mild response.
Personally, I don’t believe it happened but if it does again, I hope it is documented so it can be addressed.
A lot goes on in the Vatican, and for the most part, there is no reason for Mormons to notice anything that isn’t happening to themselves. This is human nature.

At any rate, I heard first-hand accounts of people who live and work at the Vatican, and who were more than a little miffed. But, it was a long time ago, and all has been forgiven long ago as well.

I sometimes don’t think Mormons realize how connected we are. There are no isolated dioceses or parishes. What happens in Rome doesn’t stay in Rome. 😃
 
Rebecca, and if it happened, being miffed is a mild response.
Personally, I don’t believe it happened but if it does again, I hope it is documented so it can be addressed.
I don’t know why you would think it had not been addressed, or, why you think the person who wrote a letter to the editor had a reason to lie. 🤷
 
I don’t doubt that a missionary might have thought he was being funny in doing so.
And you are right, it probably is clearly addressed in mission training after the story many years ago.
I personally doubt it was ever an allowed or encouraged practice, due to lack of corroberating evidence.
I don’t know why you would think it had not been addressed, or, why you think the person who wrote a letter to the editor had a reason to lie. 🤷
 
I personally doubt it was ever an allowed or encouraged practice
I can agree with this, as I understand missionaries can get creative in their zealotry to meet the baptism numbers. My understanding is that it happened one day.

There are plenty more things Mormon missionaries do, that I think are also one-off incidence, where they got themselves in trouble by breaking the Mormon 11th commandment. (Thou shalt not commit bad publicity.) 😛
 
Rebecca, and if it happened, being miffed is a mild response.
**Personally, I don’t believe it happened **but if it does again, I hope it is documented so it can be addressed.
Todd - You realize the person who was interviewed for the Salt Lake Tribune did use her first and last name? Are you calling her a liar?

I was at a church festival (Catholic) a couple of months ago and two missionaries walked through in their suits with name tags on and back packs on their backs. They were not handing out literature, they were not talking to anyone, in fact, when I said “hello” as they walked by me, they did not say hello.

Everyone was commenting on the fact that they were there. Everyone noticed that they were not attempting to talk to anyone (or even smile for that matter). It was concluded by me that they did not come for the beer 😃 but just to check things out.

As long as missionaries walk around areas or come on to the property where other people are celebrating religious events or church sponsored events, they run the risk of someone noticing something. If you were to ask some of the people that saw the missionaries at the church festival, they might say something different. A couple of people that are former Mormons had a different take on the situatioin. I saw nothing inappropriate. I just wondered why they were there. Maybe that is how people feel at the Sistine Chapel. Why be there if you are not part of the celebration or part of the tour?
 
There are plenty more things Mormon missionaries do, that I think are also one-off incidence, where they got themselves in trouble by breaking the Mormon 11th commandment. (Thou shalt not commit bad publicity.) 😛
Considering there are 50k+ wandering around out there year after year, they behave quite well most of the time. 👍
 
Considering there are 50k+ wandering around out there year after year, they behave quite well most of the time. 👍
Yes, I think so too. I’ve met many Mormon missionaries, and have many family members and friends who have been on Mormon missions. Most would think such behavior to be of the knucklehead variety. Though at the same time, I think they applaud the missionary fervor that is behind the behavior.
 
Lax16,

What I wrote was that they are for LDS children and for non-LDS people (which includes adults and children who are non-LDS). I’ve never given out an invitation to one, but I assume those who have done so wanted their non-LDS friend to know they were invited to see inside so they would have a basic understanding about the temples and not think there is some “mystery” about them or about what happens within those temples after they are dedicated.

Hi Parker - By seeing empty rooms as you walk through a museum-like tour, one is not going to get a basic understanding about what happens in those temples! All of the rituals are private and secretive. Are the sacred rituals discussed during the tours? I doubt it. I still say it is to make people think the temple is beautiful so that they will aspire to it someday.
I think it is like our friends that have pictures of temples up on their walls. It is to (name removed by moderator)sire their children to be temple-worthy (so I was told).
What goes on inside is a mystery Parker! It is only for a select few, right?

Like I had written, the cookies seem to be for the children who attend, whether LDS or non-LDS. We lived in Atlanta during the open house for that temple, and I don’t remember any refreshments being served there at that time. I think the cookies are a “Utah” thing.

I did not hear about cookies at the other tour, but the Draper tour was over the top. Shuttles buses running from morning til night - it was like a tram ride to Disneyland. I was on 1300 east in Draper where they were running the shuttles from and I saw it myself. I have been up to the temple looking at houses in the neighborhood since then.

Yes, but we’re talking about buildings that are going to become closed to the public, and that the buzz surrounding “what goes on inside” is often negative. The open houses seek to dispel that negativity by openness and by allowing people to “see” for themselves.

The negative buzz is because the temple rituals are not in keeping with Christian tradition. What other religions that call themselves Christian have secret marriages and other ordinances for a select few? Christ calls all of us - even sinners.
If I go on a tour of a temple, what will I see that will dispel my negative view of non-Christian rituals?

I didn’t hear the hype you heard. I don’t know about the imported limestone (fine that it was imported–whatever). I did hear someone mention the staircase and the chandelier as being something to watch for as being unique. They weren’t a big deal to me.

I am sure that it is true for you. My point is that the LDS in my neighborhood really wanted us to come see the beautiful fixtures, not discuss temple rituals.

I like the curiosity of children. I think it’s refreshing.

Okay.

I sincerely doubt that would be the intent. A visitor center or welcome center is for various purposes, again bearing in mind that non-LDS can only go into a “waiting room” within an LDS temple after it’s dedicated, so a visitor center or welcome center makes perfect sense to me. Some tourists have curiosity about the unique building they are seeing.

Will the tourists learn about baptisms for the dead and secret marriage ceremonies? I don’t ever remember hearing any of this when I visited the SLC temple grounds ten or so years ago. Actually, I have been down to see two epic-type movies (Legacy and some other one about the natives meeting Christ), walked through a wax like museum with depictions of JS and the BoM, visited a building with a huge organ, spoke with female missionaries from China, ate brunch at what used to be the JS Memorial building (I am not sure it is still there)…no one ever mentioned anything about secret temple rituals.

The hours of operation are Tue-Sat 6:00 am to 10:00 pm, and the reason more are built when they are needed in the Salt Lake City area is to handle “peak loads” and to handle “temple marriages” within reasonable hours and not have a lot of waiting time.

How long do the wedding ceremonies last? It is interesting to see wedding receptions during the week so I know there are many weddings going on.

They are near freeways for easy access, and are often in an elevated location so that the eyes of those who see them are “lifted” heavenward and because the Old Testament speaks so very often about the “mountain of the Lord” or other such phrases.
Why the need for such opulent buildings if they are just to perform rituals? Obviously one does not need imported anything for a marriage ceremony. What is the history of the fancy decor and building materials and the purpose of it?
 
Wow! I have never seen a “Catholic” so excited about such a development. You sure demonstrate that old “burning in the bosom” Just so we know, would you be so kind as to define “Catholic” for us, since the LDS can and do use lies and deception in the furtherance of their organization? Thank you.
Sorry it has taken so long to respond, I have been very very busy with school. Anyways no I am not a Mormon, I do consider myself a Catholic, I was born and raised one. I am certainly not the best Catholic, and being a History Major struggle with the Catholic Church’s history somewhat.

I also love architecture and development, and spend most of my internet time on the Skyscraper Forums! I just found it very interesting as part of Rome’s history that the temple was being built there, and I am excited to see something like this in Rome, so call me a bad Catholic. Also I spent 2 semesters in Utah (with my aunts family), and got to know many Mormons at school, and even visited their headquarters there in Salt Lake, which is why I think it is neat for Rome to have something like it. I have no desire to be a Mormon, their history is a problem with me, especially polygamy.

I just have a problem with the control the Catholic Church has had over Rome (As a history student), and that is why it is interesting to me. And if you go looking this is the only post I have ever done about Mormons:)
 
Well, I have spent some time going through all the posts…I stayed in Italy for about 6 weeks, went through the western part of the country – Milan, Turin and the church where St. John Bosco attended, as well as seeing the compartment containing the Shroud of Turin, Genoa, Pisa, and then to Assisi while staying with a family in Umbria. We went into a little stone church St. Francis had built before he realized the Lord was calling him to rebuild the faith in Christ’s believers.

I found Italy so rich in Catholic faith, irregardless of the crisis of faith there as is elsewhere in the world. The Mormons have similar beliefs in the sacred covenant of marriage, and to be open the gift of life through children. I am sure these values will be a sign for the Italian people…

I have been to the Madeleine, and if we had moved there, it would have been our parish, but the paintings there were not that attractive to us…but nevertheless, such a beautiful cathedral and the Mass we attended was so profound and emanating the universal and apostolic faith.

We visited the Mormon Tabernacle Choir part of the Temple, but were not allowed in to other sacred Mormon places. At the Vatican, the Mormons will find it very open, including the Masses.

The only trepidation I have is that the new temple will be so large…are there that many Mormons in Rome?? And considering the beliefs of the Mormons…the invalidation of the universal church founded by Christ and His apostles, as well as parts of the interior closed to outsiders, it does seem to step on my toes a little.

My friend lives in SE Italy…at the heel. Practically everyone is Catholic, and they have a small congregation of Walbigensians…Methodists?..But throughout the country, there have been so many saints and international leaders coming from Italy, the most culturally Catholic in the world.
 
Hi Parker - By seeing empty rooms as you walk through a museum-like tour, one is not going to get a basic understanding about what happens in those temples! All of the rituals are private and secretive. Are the sacred rituals discussed during the tours? I doubt it. I still say it is to make people think the temple is beautiful so that they will aspire to it someday.
I think it is like our friends that have pictures of temples up on their walls. It is to (name removed by moderator)sire their children to be temple-worthy (so I was told).
What goes on inside is a mystery Parker! It is only for a select few, right?
Lax16,
There is a brief movie explaining about temples before each tour. There are also brief explanations about each room during the tour. They are fairly simple concepts, so the explanations are quite simple.

They explain that just as the tabernacle of Moses and Solomon’s temple had symbolic “washing” and so forth and had a font with twelve oxen facing outward, these things happen inside a temple today. They explain that there are instructions and sacred covenants that involve understanding the plan of God’s creation of this earth and the plan of salvation for humankind, including sealing families together forever as a family unit.

The words of covenant making are to be kept confidential because they are sacred promises to God, and to share them with others would be to make them “earthy” instead of “heavenly”. But they are simple promises–nothing mysterious about them.

I would estimate that perhaps a million LDS members are temple-worthy adult members, and that number grows each week.
I did not hear about cookies at the other tour, but the Draper tour was over the top. Shuttles buses running from morning til night - it was like a tram ride to Disneyland. I was on 1300 east in Draper where they were running the shuttles from and I saw it myself. I have been up to the temple looking at houses in the neighborhood since then.
Those attending were mostly member families, which explains the large numbers of people and why they had to park at an LDS chapel and bus to the temple location since the parking there is limited.
The negative buzz is because the temple rituals are not in keeping with Christian tradition. What other religions that call themselves Christian have secret marriages and other ordinances for a select few?
You are correct about “Christian tradition”. If you add in “Old Testament practice” then you have a very different situation. The LDS don’t believe that the New Testament was a complete break from everything the Old Testament had as doctrinal foundations, including of course the belief in the Promised Messiah but also the belief in temples, tabernacles, and “holy places” and that some things within the tabernacle and temple were so sacred that the general population was not told all the sacred details. Also, the Jewish marriage covenant “under a canopy” represents being “inside the tabernacle of the children of Israel” which is what the temple became at the time of Solomon.
If I go on a tour of a temple, what will I see that will dispel my negative view of non-Christian rituals?
You might start to think about the Old Testament and the why of Solomon’s temple, but perhaps not so you might leave exactly as you had started out–with a misconception.
I am sure that it is true for you. My point is that the LDS in my neighborhood really wanted us to come see the beautiful fixtures, not discuss temple rituals.
Just because people try to appeal to a person’s interest by mentioning something they think might be interesting to them, does not mean that is their sole interest for making the invite. One could ask them why, and they would probably expand on their simple explanation of “beautiful fixtures”. (I wasn’t saying to “discuss temple rituals”, but rather to “understand the Old Testament temple better to understand the LDS temple better.”)
Will the tourists learn about baptisms for the dead and secret marriage ceremonies?
In a general way, yes.
I don’t ever remember hearing any of this when I visited the SLC temple grounds ten or so years ago. Actually, I have been down to see two epic-type movies (Legacy and some other one about the natives meeting Christ), walked through a wax like museum with depictions of JS and the BoM, visited a building with a huge organ, spoke with female missionaries from China, ate brunch at what used to be the JS Memorial building (I am not sure it is still there)…no one ever mentioned anything about secret temple rituals.
There are short films about LDS baptism for the dead and Why Mormons Build Temples. If people ask about those subjects, they are invited to watch the short films or to see a display about the subject.
How long do the wedding ceremonies last?
Start to finish from greeting each other to well-wishing after the ceremony, is roughly an hour of time within the temple itself, then more time outside afterward.
It is interesting to see wedding receptions during the week so I know there are many weddings going on. Why the need for such opulent buildings if they are just to perform rituals? Obviously one does not need imported anything for a marriage ceremony. What is the history of the fancy decor and building materials and the purpose of it?
I suggest that a person really wanting to figure out the answer to that question, would do well to read about the importing of wood and other materials and the craftsmanship and specialness of Solomon’s temple as described in how it was built. Each LDS temple is to indeed be the “House of the Lord” with just as much care in its building and inspiring architecture as was the case for Solomon’s temple.
 
Zaffiroborant,

I would say that it is easy to guess what they were alluding to in that conversation. As you know, the Pope might at any point say “Mormons are not Christians” (especially if he is merely being advised by advisors and as Lax and others have said, he has no idea who the Mormons are). Bearing in mind that he views his role as very important for his own followers, then that would be consistent with how he views that role–but that would easily have created an uncomfortable situation for Elder Benson, particularly as one who would have been there as both a government official and as an LDS church leader.

Elder Benson was an outspoken kind of person, and could have “held his own” if confronted about his belief in the living Christ and the attributes of his life that made him a “Christian” in the New Testament use of the term, but that would not have been the kind of setting to do that kind of thing with an audience and possibly media watching the proceedings. So President McKay was being wise.

Incidentally, if that was the same visit to Europe when Elder Benson also went to Russia, then he had a wonderful experience in a Russian Orthodox church, if I remember correctly, with the people attending a meeting there.
A straight reading sees that both men feared for the LDS people should Benson meet with the pope. It shows that they were suspicious of the meeting and believed those involved would use it to their advantage. These reactions show mistrust and suspicion of the pope and lack of confidence in the general membership of the LDS church. Pretty much all that you attribute to our current leaders is seen in the conversation and subsequent actions of Benson. He and the rest of the 15 were so afraid of the pope he weaseled out of a meeting (as a representative of the US) requested by a US ambassador. How will it play in Salt Lake City was most important. That’s fear.

And no I don’t know "As you know, the Pope might at any point say “Mormons are not Christians” why in the world would he blurt this out? Just more unsubstantiated and ugly innuendo on your part.
 
At one time, there were many pagan temples in Rome. Christianity and the True Church overcame them all. Christianity and the True Church will again overcome this new pagan temple and the pagan religion contained therein.
 
A straight reading sees that both men feared for the LDS people should Benson meet with the pope. It shows that they were suspicious of the meeting and believed those involved would use it to their advantage. These reactions show mistrust and suspicion of the pope and lack of confidence in the general membership of the LDS church. Pretty much all that you attribute to our current leaders is seen in the conversation and subsequent actions of Benson. He and the rest of the 15 were so afraid of the pope he weaseled out of a meeting (as a representative of the US) requested by a US ambassador. How will it play in Salt Lake City was most important. That’s fear.

And no I don’t know "As you know, the Pope might at any point say “Mormons are not Christians” why in the world would he blurt this out? Just more unsubstantiated and ugly innuendo on your part.
Zaffiroborant,

I certainly wish it were true that at no point, either in writing or in quiet conversation, would the pope or anyone advising him or anyone in Catholicism say or write “Mormons are not Christians.” So if you’re saying that is never going to happen and never has happened, then I hope a whole lot of people who have written posts on this very thread and on other threads will read your opinion about that and will agree with you and put that matter to rest.

Elder Benson was going to be in Rome for the “World Conference on Agriculture.” I have no idea why the U.S. Ambassador to Italy thought meeting with Pope Pius XII would be a good idea at the time, but it doesn’t sound like a needful event as to the purposes of Elder Benson’s visit to Italy to address that conference. But the problem for Elder Benson under the circumstances would be his dual role with his two very different leadership positions, and not knowing what might come up during such a visit unless there was some pre-planned agenda for such a visit and its intended purposes.

By the way, I don’t see it as “weaseling out of a meeting”, as though it was a pre-planned visit with an agenda and purpose. But for the leader of the worldwide church that considers itself to be the “mystical body of Christ” to meet with one of the actual living Twelve Apostles who would know differently and know that the authority given by Christ to the apostles had been taken away from the successors to the bishops, seems like a meeting that might be uncomfortable for the both of them given each one’s background.
 
. But for the leader of the worldwide church that considers itself to be the “mystical body of Christ” to meet with one of the actual living Twelve Apostles who would know differently and know that the authority given by Christ to the apostles had been taken away from the successors to the bishops, seems like a meeting that might be uncomfortable for the both of them given each one’s background.
:rolleyes:
 
Zaffiroborant,

I certainly wish it were true that at no point, either in writing or in quiet conversation, would the pope or anyone advising him or anyone in Catholicism say or write “Mormons are not Christians.” So if you’re saying that is never going to happen and never has happened, then I hope a whole lot of people who have written posts on this very thread and on other threads will read your opinion about that and will agree with you and put that matter to rest.
You are moving the goal posts here I was specifically referring to your assertion *"As you know, the Pope might at any point say “Mormons are not Christians” *. Why do you say this? Could you agree with this?

As you know the LDS prophet might at any point say “your priesthood has no authority or power from God” especially if he is merely being advised by advisers.
Elder Benson was going to be in Rome for the “World Conference on Agriculture.” I have no idea why the U.S. Ambassador to Italy thought meeting with Pope Pius XII would be a good idea at the time, but it doesn’t sound like a needful event as to the purposes of Elder Benson’s visit to Italy to address that conference. But the problem for Elder Benson under the circumstances would be his dual role with his two very different leadership positions, and not knowing what might come up during such a visit unless there was some pre-planned agenda for such a visit and its intended purposes.

By the way, I don’t see it as “weaseling out of a meeting”, as though it was a pre-planned visit with an agenda and purpose. But for the leader of the worldwide church that considers itself to be the “mystical body of Christ” to meet with one of the actual living Twelve Apostles who would know differently and know that the authority given by Christ to the apostles had been taken away from the successors to the bishops, seems like a meeting that might be uncomfortable for the both of them given each one’s background.
What you said here shows the fear these men had about meeting with the pope.
 
My pastor is giving us a book on church history tonight. I wish more Mormons would attend RCIA. We study, but we always get new questions and challenges that tweak our understanding of our faith, and I always get subtle but very important lapses missed, and corrected.

It will be very interesting to see how the Italians respond and seek conversion at the Mormon Temple. I read some testimonies from some young Mormon missionaries who were sent to Italy and had to stand outside cathedrals and churches to pass out leaflets. In time this particular group felt very bad seeing the response of the devout Italians.

Today many Italians do not go to church. They have lived with corrupt clergy and scandals for centuries. But they are in the land that Peter and Paul were sent, witnessed, and were martyred for Christ. At John Paul II’s funeral, the Liturgy of the Word was celebrated in St. Peter’s Square right where St. Peter had died upside down on a cross as he did not feel worthy to die exactly like Christ.

This movement of emotion by St. Peter made a lasting imprint on the witnesses and believers, this tradition of testimony lasting 2,000 years.

There is also a consistent architecture going back to times before the life of Christ, and these sites and buildings also give testimony to what Rome was before Christ and after Christ, as well as memory of all the barbarian invasions that came and looted.

I drove by the Coliseum in Rome with its many cats cared for by the natives. I remember St. Therese of Liseux recalling her trip there with her father, how she got out and walked into the coliseum and onto the grounds where the martyrs gave their life for Christ, these same martyrs being fed and nurtured by the Eucharist.
 
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