Mormonism, Catholicism and Devoutness

[Pattylt]

Unlike the Mormon God who is harsh and only accepts perfection.

That’s an interesting statement! Why do you think the LDS church took this path of trying to make God accept only perfection? The harshness of God can be read from the OT so I can see where that view arose. But, only accepting perfection from fallen humans seems hard to read out of the NT. Is it more apparent in the other Mormon literature?

 

[Formon]

I could go on and on about that. Here’s just one scripture of many that illustrates this point:

15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

So, according to Mormonism, unless you keep God’s commandments continually, you’ll never go to the highest kingdom where God dwells. How often can you sin and still keep his commandments continually?

 

[gazelam]

Why are you requesting information that you know are “problems” with LDS doctrine?

Please tell me which Latter-day Saint doctrine you believe that I personally know have problems. I can’t read your mind, and I’m fairly certain that you cannot read mine.

It’s all over the internet. You know what the “lies” are.

There’s a ton of stuff is on the internet. But, you need to specify what you believe the lies are. I can’t read your mind and I’m not going to search anti-Mormon sites wondering which sites are those that concern you.

You are asking so so you can give the LDS apologetics to them.

This is a debate forum. But debate can’t start until someone puts out something to be debated.

Even Wikipedia give a pretty fair documentation to the First Vision. Here…

OK, what specifically in this article do you believe to be problematic about The First Vision?

Do you deny the controversy surrounding the polygamy issues?
Do you deny the problems surrounding the book of Abraham?
Do you deny the LDS history of what it taught about blacks?

Jesus is controversial also. What are the specific things in the topics you list that are controversial to you? I can’t read your mind.

Really?

Really!

But I always knew inside that I was defending the indefensible.

Please list “the indefensible”.

I always had that secret ache inside of me. Lots of Mormons do. Gazelem is probably one of them, for all we know. But don’t expect him to admit it.

Now that you mention it, I will admit it. I’m well know around my parts for the ache inside of me. In fact, I’m routinely referred to as “Gazelam Of the Achy Thoughts”, but I ask family and friends to just refer to me simply as the G.O.A.T.

He knows in his heart the lies that I’m talking about. If he wants to try to gaslight me, it’s fine, but I’m not falling for it.

All I’ve done is ask for specifics about the very general statements you’ve previously made, and haven’t speculated about you. Does that justify a suggestion that I might gaslight you in the future?

Unlike the Mormon God who is harsh and only accepts perfection.

@Pattylt Now this is an actual debatable point.

 

[gazelam]

I could go on and on about that. Here’s just one scripture of many that illustrates this point:

15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

So, according to Mormonism, unless you keep God’s commandments continually, you’ll never go to the highest kingdom where God dwells. How often can you sin and still keep his commandments continually?

For one thing, repentance is a commandment from God so keeping the commandments includes repentance. Refusing to repent blocks the Atonement of Christ from transforming one’s life - that is when the problem occurs.

Complaining about D&C 25:15 looks like a complaint right out of the Impossible Gospel - which is usually a Protestant anti-Mormon tactic. It seems to me you jumped out of the frying pan into the fire if you are looking for an anxiety-free religious experience. (Some Protestants have a concept of Eternal Security which is the belief that you are free of the guilt of sin forever once you accept Christ as your Savior.) Catholics and Latter-day Saints share similar views regarding penance/repentance and keeping the commandments. Both require an accounting for one’s sins, and both see true repentance/penance as that acceptable accounting.

Latter-day Saint doctrine includes the belief that perfection cannot be attained in this life and that God grants unto man a time to repent.

D&C 67:13 Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected.

D&C 3:10 But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;

Alma 42:4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

Mosiah 26:30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.

D&C 25:15 you quote is like 1 Tim 6:11-14

But you, man of God, avoid all this. Instead, pursue righteousness, devotion, faith, love, patience, and gentleness.

Compete well for the faith. Lay hold of eternal life, to which you were called…

I charge [you] before God, who gives life to all things…

to keep the commandment without stain or reproach…

Catholic Catechism (CCC) 2075 “What good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” - “If you would enter into life, keep the commandments” ( Mt 19:16-17).

Catholic doctrine is that any mortal sin not absolved by a priest results in a one-way ticket to hell. (That’s not the case for venial sins I believe.)

From Catholicism For Dummies:

The Church believes that mortal sins can’t be forgiven and the soul damns itself to hell without absolution from a priest.

Continued…

 

[gazelam]

Continued from the previous post…

This diocese newsletter mentions the need to continually strive toward perfection via confession. It notes the anxiety (inner ache, anyone?) Catholics can have.

Some of us may have the same fear of this beautiful sacrament [confession] that we do of Christ’s call to perfection. It brings us anxiety because we have to face our imperfections.

In a nutshell, not keeping the commandments - to include repentance/penance - is indeed problematic in both Catholic and Latter-day Saint belief. Many Protestants share a different view.

I hope this helps…

 

[OddBird]

It seems to me you jumped out of the frying pan into the fire if you are looking for an anxiety-free religious experience.

Catholics and Latter-day Saints share similar views regarding penance/repentance and keeping the commandments.

If I’m not mistaken, an anxiety-free approach to repentance and penance is what Catholics try to strive for. That’s called perfect contrition – being sorry for our sins because we love God and sin saddens Him, rather than being sorry for our sins out of fear of hell (which would be imperfect contrition).

This diocese newsletter mentions the need to continually strive toward perfection via confession. It notes the anxiety (inner ache, anyone?) Catholics can have.

Some of us may have the same fear of this beautiful sacrament [confession] that we do of Christ’s call to perfection. It brings us anxiety because we have to face our imperfections.

That’s taken out of context. the sentence following immediately after your quote reads:

Yet with the understanding of God’s mercy, we need only to know that we have nothing to fear when we go to Jesus with contrite hearts.

The whole point of that paragraph is to help people get rid of “confession anxiety”. The article concludes with an exhortation to “pursue our salvation without fear”.

 

[Formon]

For one thing, repentance is a commandment from God so keeping the commandments includes repentance.

Repentance is something you do after you sin. If you have something to repent of, you weren’t keeping the commandments “continually”.

There’s a huge difference between Catholics and Mormons when it comes to sin. A Catholic priest doesn’t compel a 12 year old girl to sit alone with him in a room while he asks her if she looks at porn or masterbates. Or if she has ever touched a guy’s crotch. And don’t pretend that doesn’t happen with Mormon bishops.

I don’t know what you’re specifically talking about when you refer to an impossible religion but in the 6 years and 3 months that I was a bishop, 3 young adults in my stake, including two in my ward, committed suicide because they would never be good enough to be Mormon. I’m truly ashamed to have been a part of that.

 

[Formon]

The whole point of that paragraph is to help people get rid of “confession anxiety”.

Confession anxiety is real in the Mormon church. Bishops and stake presidents really put pressure on people to confess all and are ready and willing to hold disciplinary councils when necessary. If you commit a major sin as a Mormon, here’s what to expect. If you’re brave enough to confess, you’ll be faced with a church tribunal either in front of a bishopric or a stake presidency depending on the circumstances and whether you’re a Melchizedek priesthood holder or not. Then your sins will be broadcast to everyone in the room in great detail. Then you are asked to give your story and show remorse. Then they kick you out of the room while they deliberate your fate. Then they invite you back and pronounce your sentence. It’s humiliation with a capital H. It’s cruel. It is hurtful and hateful. Anyone who has ever witnessed a Mormon disciplinary council and believes in any way that this is a Christlike action is not right in the head.

 

[OddBird]

That’s downright frightening.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Catholic doctrine is that any mortal sin not absolved by a priest results in a one-way ticket to hell

Not true. Intent to go to confession counts if the person dies.

 

[emt_steve88]

Regarding these poll results, you must take into account the fact that many people who were raised Catholic, but are not practicing at all, will reply they are Catholic on polls. Polls like these aren’t especially accurate in representing practicing Catholics, because results from nominal Catholics get mixed in with the results.

 

[Formon]

He doesn’t seem to be very familiar with Catholicism from what I’ve seen so far. Makes me wonder what he’s doing here. His understanding of Mormonism gets a C.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

As a Catholic who is married to a former Mormon, I noticed this myself. But you have to understand that the devotion of Mormons is largely shoved down their throats their entire lives by the leadership. They are taught to be obedient above all else. I cannot emphasize that enough. They also tend to live in a bubble of mormonism. Their dentist is a mormon. Their doctor is a mormon. Their plumber is a mormon. They are taught that the only way you can be happy in this world is to be a mormon. They seriously cannot contemplate that other people outside of their religion are truly happy. They believe that only by checking every box of being mormon will they find happiness. So what appears to be devotion from the outside is often them working themselves to the bone to be perfect in the mormon sense of the word.

The Catholic Church does not shove obedience down its members throats as the mormons do. Thus we have a lot more luke warm Catholics. Add to that a couple generations of really poor catechesis and you see what we have today. Our church has gone too far the other way, I think, so that’s not necessarily good either.

 

[gazelam]

If I’m not mistaken, an anxiety-free approach to repentance and penance is what Catholics try to strive for. That’s called perfect contrition – being sorry for our sins because we love God and sin saddens Him, rather than being sorry for our sins out of fear of hell (which would be imperfect contrition).

In my understanding the condition needed for sincere repentance with would be “Godly sorrow” (2 Cor 7:10) which seems similar to your term “perfect contrition”.

That’s taken out of context. the sentence following immediately after your quote reads:

The whole point of that paragraph is to help people get rid of “confession anxiety”. The article concludes with an exhortation to “pursue our salvation without fear”.

IMHO I didn’t take anything out of context. I referred to the anxiety “Catholics can have”. I didn’t say an anxiety that Catholics must feel in order to be absolved of sin.

When I attended RCIA, the DRE speaking of confession said he felt a weight come off of him after he confessed. And in this video a catholic university professor talks of seeking out a priest “wanting to unburden myself of some issues that were on my heart” (starting at about the 0:40 mark). So, if “anxiety” is not the right term to describe the “weight” or the “burden” these folks are referring to, what term might you suggest? It seems to me they were not feeling a inner contentment before confessing.

PS - Your profile is interesting. Does your slow process of moving from a Reformed tradition to the RCC have anything to do with a reluctance to give up the doctrine of predestination? If so, that would make for an interesting discussion thread. Take care and God bless you.

 

[OKComputer]

Mormons are far more devout than Catholics i

Hi. Former Mormon here.

Yes, they are more devout-they are also very good at forming communities. At least, at first.

The longer you know them the more you realize that Mormons, like everyone else to some degree but it’s a major problem in their church, can be incredibly shallow and hypocritical.

It’s all about appearances with them. So you would be stunned to see that the the “devout” Mormon guy who does his calling, home teaching (or ministering), is usually just going through the motions.

 

[gazelam]

Repentance is something you do after you sin. If you have something to repent of, you weren’t keeping the commandments “continually”.

The Catholic Church also commands repentance. CCC 1423 According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.”

There’s a huge difference between Catholics and Mormons when it comes to sin. A Catholic priest doesn’t compel a 12 year old girl to sit alone with him in a room while he asks her if she looks at porn or masterbates. Or if she has ever touched a guy’s crotch. And don’t pretend that doesn’t happen with Mormon bishops.

This comment doesn’t show a difference between Catholics and Latter-day Saints when it comes to the seriousness of sin. Pornography is pervasive and personally very destructive. My Stake Presidency once remarked that he no longer asks whether the youth has viewed pornography, but rather how does the youth respond when it’s seen since it’s everywhere now.

Confession anxiety is real in the Mormon church.

The parable of the Prodigal Son teaches us that sinners can be hesitant to return to God.

Bishops and stake presidents really put pressure on people to confess all and are ready and willing to hold disciplinary councils when necessary.

Full confessions are required for forgiveness.

If you’re brave enough to confess… It’s humiliation with a capital H. It’s cruel. It is hurtful and hateful.

It’s not hateful in the least. I’ve seen those councils first hand. Major transgressions require major actions.

His understanding of Mormonism gets a C.

That’s a better grade than I usually get.

 

[gazelam]

gazelam:

Catholic doctrine is that any mortal sin not absolved by a priest results in a one-way ticket to hell

Not true. Intent to go to confession counts if the person dies.

You are correct. There are some exceptions. Similarly if an unbaptized person intends to be baptized, but dies before he’s able, or if an unbaptized person dies defending Christianity (i.e., a martyr) they are counted as being baptized in the eyes of God.

 

[OddBird]

I referred to the anxiety “Catholics can have”. I didn’t say an anxiety that Catholics must feel in order to be absolved of sin.

We’re having this discussion because @Formon said this:

At least I worship a God who I know loves me and whose only begotten Son has paid for my sins. Unlike the Mormon God who is harsh and only accepts perfection.

To which you answered:

It seems to me you jumped out of the frying pan into the fire if you are looking for an anxiety-free religious experience.

The anxiety @Formon is talking of here is not nervousness and unease because facing oneself in truth and confessing to someone else is not easy. His posts have made amply clear that it’s anxiety at being judged, condemned and punished by the church and by God.

Catholics can and do feel the first one. The second should ideally not exist for people who come back to God with sorrow for what they did and a trusting heart.

So, if “anxiety” is not the right term to describe the “weight” or the “burden” these folks are referring to, what term might you suggest?

Sorrow, contrition…

Does your slow process of moving from a Reformed tradition to the RCC have anything to do with a reluctance to give up the doctrine of predestination?

Unfortunately, my slowness has nothing to do with doctrinal reluctance and everything to do with my spouse’s reaction to the idea of my becoming Catholic.

 

[Formon]

You’re responses to my comments sound like this:

Me: What’s your favorite color?

You: Ham and Swiss on rye.

 

[blackforest]

I can’t believe I’m just now stumbling on this thread!

And yet, Mormons are far more devout than Catholics in the United States and Western Europe, and in many ways live more “Catholic” than Catholics do.

I have a lot of experience with Mormon culture and can assure that this hasty generalization doesn’t always apply. For one thing, the more rigid of a standard people set for themselves, the more vulnerable they are to lapsing and falling prey to hypocrisy. So in any religion, be careful not to equate rigidity and legalism with authentic devotion. I’m sure there are devout and faithful Mormons alongside those just going through the motions, just as we can safely say about Catholics.

Second, there’s a whole sub-culture of what they call “jack Mormons,” parallel to lapsed Catholics. Unless you’re a mind reader or God Himself, you really cannot judge the level of devotion held by complete strangers.

Why are Catholics doing such a poor job of following their faith that a higher percentage of Catholics openly support things that gravely offend God than people who follow a false faith do?

Weekly Mass attendance is paramount to our faith, but it’s not the only component. Don’t forget Christ’s parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. And don’t assume that Mormons showing up at Church every Sunday are necessarily more devout.

From what’s been told on some atheists boards, when Mormons leave the church, they are often hounded to come back. I’m not saying this is good or bad, it’s just how they operate. They are very community/church involved.

Oh my goodness, yes! My FIL converted to Catholicism 30 years ago and still gets Mormon visitors at his door.