Mormonism

[wes144]

It doesn’t matter how much, or how little education he had, he was either a prophet of God or a false prophet.

He said the Bible was full of errors and you couldn’t trust even one verse.

He only used the Bible to try to get credibility and then added other books that don’t agree with each other, nor him!

He gave false prophecies, was a sneaky profligate, his wife left him after that final piece of bologny she couldn’t swallow. She had kicked him out of the basement before that for having his friends over to get drunk and spitting tobacco juice on the floor.

Please! Joseph Smith was a fraud, pure and simple!

He claimed that the first time he prayed out loud Heaven emptied out; the Father, Son and all of the holy angels came to answer his prayer! What an egotistic liar!

He does not compare in any way with prophets of the Bible.

Do your homework and you will see that he is not a person to follow. Only Jesus is worth trusting in and following!

Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

I will give you the tests for a prophet if you would like.

 

[ncrespi]

I don’t see how ANYONE who believes that Jesus was born 100% human can be considered Christian. That denies His divinity and link to God.

The LDS Church believes such, so they can be no more Christian than Jews , Muslims, etc.

I recommend you view the story of the LDS Church from your public library, as I did, which
will show you how much of a cult it really is.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

How right you are Little Soldier! It is good to read several accounts of Joseph Smiths life, by Christian believers and from secular standpoints, too. Some biographies are too one-sided and exaggerated. The truth about Smiths appalling religion as L.D.S. Mormons accept it is quite horrid enough!

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Oops, it was Crespi that wrote what I responded to! You and Little Soldier both are on the right track!

Jerry Parker

 

[LivingWaters7]

I don’t know if Augustine said it or not. I’ll take your word for it. But Augustine, although an ECF, was not infallible and never claimed to be. I would have to read the context of the statement. It’s just cherry-picked right now. I don’t have enough information and I have only started reading The Confessions of St. Augustine.

You don’t need to take my word for it, nor was I claiming or implying that Augustine was infallible. It was stated that Jesus did not break the gates of hades, and I provided one link (out of many) that shows that this is a common belief. I provided a link to the Summa Theologica, which quotes Augustine as saying just that, so there is nothing “cherry-picked” about it.

I don’t understand what you are saying. In one way God’s Church is made up of people; she is also His Bride and she is the Body of Christ. It seems that Mormons believe that Jesus founded a Church that died when He died - that means that Church only lasted a few years at most and then failed? Is this correct? And then, although the Gates of Heaven were opened Jesus left us with nothing: no Church, He was gone, there was nobody. That is very sad. I don’t see that as an act of a loving God and I also don’t see that as compatible with Jesus’ statement that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [His Church].” How long did people flounder around until Joseph Smith showed up to resurrect God’s Church? And if Joseph Smith was indeed the one to whom this mission of mercy was given, where did the Bible come from? Who put all those pieces and scrolls and bits of papyrus together and put it into book form? It was the Catholic Church - still alive and still healthy and still without the gates of hell successfully prevailing against her in ANY way.

Jesus did not make a wimpy Church. He gave His Church the power to bind and loosen what is in HEAVEN. That is amazing power! I just can’t see this powerful, infallible, protected Church just dying. I can’t accept that.

I’m not asking you to accept anything. The purpose is to correctly portray the teachings and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I’m not concerned with whether someone accepts them or doesn’t (nor am I concerned with accepting Catholic/Orthodox/Lutheran/Anglican/Baptist/Muslim/etc teaching, besides accurate portrayal of their own teaching).

Latter-day Saints believe that the apostasy and restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ was predicted by ancient Biblical prophets. We believe that the apostasy of the Lord’s Church was not a failing on His part, since He is perfect, but a failing on the part of humans, who are not perfect, and are allowed to freely choose, and God will not force them to do something they do not want to do. We see this principle throughout the Bible, throughout salvation history. The people reject the Lord’s servants, God withholds blessings/guidance from those that do not desire Him, then He calls another prophet to lead the people. However, there have always been true believers, and God guides those people, and does not withhold His guidance from them. We believe that this was true even during the apostasy of the Church of Jesus Christ, until the Lord, in His own time, decided to call a prophet and restore His Church.

APOSTASY?? God’s Church degraded into apostasy? That would surely mean the gates of hell had prevailed against her - no ifs, ands, or buts. And the gates of hell surely would have prevailed if God’s Church were not present on earth. Without God’s Church there is no salvation. And I have never seen any Scripture that lends credence to the concept of the Church being present only in Heaven. Apostolic Tradition has been unbroken from Peter to the present. Yet the Church wasn’t present on earth? That just can’t be. God would not orphan us, even temporarily.

Again, the Bible is full of examples of apostasy and restoration throughout history. It does not mean that the gates of hades prevailed, since, for one reason among many (as already discussed), the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored by God. Further, the Church of Jesus Christ believes that God has provided a means, through ordinances in our temples, by which those that did not hear the Gospel in this life, whether in recent times, or anciently, can have that chance to accept the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the same way that Jesus Christ descended to Hades and rescued the faithful, many of whom were probably there for “hundreds” or “thousands” of years, these people also are rescued through Christ’s atonement and God’s priesthood. Latter-day Saints also believe that all people have the Light of Christ, even during times of apostasy, and those that seek after God will hear His voice.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I am a little confused. How can Mormons claim they accept the teaching of the bible yet state that the Virgin Mary was in fact, not a virgin at all and that God imitated a greek god by sleeping with her to physically conceive Jesus? This makes me upset, because my Mother is a chaste and pure servant of God, not some mistress.

Latter-day Saints do not state that Mary was not a virgin. We firmly believe that Mary, the mother of our Savior Jesus Christ, was indeed a virgin at the time of conception.

 

[LivingWaters7]

There are many wonderful sincere Mormons. Sincerity will not get you to Heaven. You can be sincerely wrong as Eve was when she bought Satan’s first two lies. "You don’t really die, you become like God!"Genesis 3:4, 5 Hence the basis for Mormonism, you don’t really die, you eternally progress to Godhood! I don’t mean to be blunt but it is better to find out the god you are following, the god of this world, before you meet the Righteous God that is your Judge!

Latter-day Saints do not claim that we don’t really die. Indeed, that was Satan’s lie, that Adam and Eve would not die. Satan mixes truths with lies, and that is part of how he deceives. They did become like God, since God Himself said that “the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” in verse 22. Again, truth mixed with lies. Latter-day Saints believe that because of the Fall, both spiritual and physical death entered the world.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I don’t see how ANYONE who believes that Jesus was born 100% human can be considered Christian. That denies His divinity and link to God.

The LDS Church believes such, so they can be no more Christian than Jews , Muslims, etc.

I recommend you view the story of the LDS Church from your public library, as I did, which
will show you how much of a cult it really is.

No, we do not believe such. Perhaps you are thinking of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. We do not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.

 

[LivingWaters7]

The word “adieu” wasn’t around in ancient times now was it? It was however widely used at the time the book of mormon was written.

Explain that one.

But yet, that doesn’t explain the word “adieu” in the book of mormon. It is a french word, and was not around in ancient times now was it?

This argument is not valid because the Book of Mormon purports to be a translation. The Book of Mormon not only contains the French word “adieu”, but it contains many English words like “behold”, “and”, “know”, finally", blessed", etc (words that also were not around in ancient times). “Adieu” was part of the English language during Joseph Smith’s time, as you correctly note. Therefore, it is a non-issue for the same reason that having the other English words in the Book of Mormon is a non-issue: it purports to be a translated text, and thus uses words that express what the original stated, and “adieu” was as much part of the language of the people as any of the other common words in the Book of Mormon.

Apparently, the Bible, in Jeremiah 10:22, also contains a French word, “bruit”, that “was not around in ancient times”. Using this same standard, this is an anachronism. Of course, we know that the Bible also is a translation, and while we don’t expect the English or French words to have been used anciently, we know that it is a translation, and uses words to express what was said/written anciently.

Links to understand the Latter-day Saint perspective on this:

lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/bom_french.htm
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Language/%22Adieu%22
askgramps.org/why-is-word-adieu-attributed-book-mormon-writer/

 

[TexanKnight]

This argument is not valid because the Book of Mormon purports to be a translation. The Book of Mormon not only contains the French word “adieu”, but it contains many English words like “behold”, “and”, “know”, finally", blessed", etc (words that also were not around in ancient times). “Adieu” was part of the English language during Joseph Smith’s time, as you correctly note. Therefore, it is a non-issue for the same reason that having the other English words in the Book of Mormon is a non-issue: it purports to be a translated text, and thus uses words that express what the original stated, and “adieu” was as much part of the language of the people as any of the other common words in the Book of Mormon.

Ah…needs to have it both ways. On one hand, Joseph was too unschooled to write the Book of Mormon, but was schooled enough to use the word “adieu” which was not a common word in his day and certainly not for those of his social class.

It is amazing how deep one has to dig in order to find anything to defend the indefensible.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Wes,

Good work replying to Living Waters. I personally no longer have the patience to reply myself to postings that cover too many points. It is typical of fervent L.D.S. Mormons to do this, overwhelming Christian opponents with loads of babble that takes on too many subjects to keep a dialogue focussed. However, I am glad that some opponents of L.D.S. Mormonism have the stamina to deal with this kind of thing.

Jerry Parker

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Little Soldier,

You wrote: *I don’t see anything demonic about it. If it were demonic it would have to involve a demon. It may be that Joseph Smith was influenced by Satan, but so far I have seen no evidence of this. But then, after seeing all the threads on Mormonism, I have to admit that I am at the very beginning of a complicated journey if I want to understand what has gone on in the history of the Mormon Church and its “good fruits” and all that. I’ve read quite a bit of the threads whose links have been posted and I am finding them confusing at best. I’ve been told so many things such as Mormons becoming gods and being given their own planets to rule. I’m aware of blood atonement and that horrifies me. I’ve read a bit about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. And as I’m typing this I am realizing what you are saying - I was looking at it from another angle and didn’t understand your use of the word “demonic.” And of course Christianity is NOT demonic in any way.

Please let me rephrase my position:

At the present time I suspect that there is something demonic about the history of the Mormon Church.

Is that better? *​

Yes, that is better! I was not intending to depict L.D.S. Mormons as involved in Satanic ceremonies and incantations, that sort of thing, but rather that such gross errors arise from the pits of Hell to tempt would-be prophets astray.

Nonethess, there are many necromantic antics that occur in Mormon temples which are, to say the least, questionable and counter to good advice from the Bible not to meddle with departed spirits, something that is, obviously, closer to outright exercise of the demonic.

Jerry Parker

 

[truthsave]

LivingWaters7:

Again, the **Bible is full of examples of apostasy **and restoration throughout history. It does not mean that the gates of hades prevailed, since, for one reason among many (as already discussed), the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored by God. Further, the Church of Jesus Christ believes that God has provided a means, through ordinances in our temples, by which those that did not hear the Gospel in this life, whether in recent times, or anciently, can have that chance to accept the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Where did you learn it? Apostasy in the Bible and restoration. You mean in the OT when the Jews were not observing the law of the Lord this was apostasy? and the restoration in the OD was when? I don’t think the concept is used correctly.
Said like that is like if you sin and keep on in your way there is a point when you apostasize.
This point is…vague. Then after this cvague point is reached you need somebody else to restore…what?
What in the Bible (the NT) is clear what you need is to have your sins forgiven as Jesus made clear and his mission.

The fulness of the Gospel…what does it mean? I guess you talk about J.Smith thing. Since I have never red Jesus said to their apostols to spread half the Gospel or 3/4 of it or not completely.
When you say it, your saying imply this. **The apostols mission was to spread an incomplete Gospel of Jesus Christ. ** They had to give their life for an incomplete message.
They were sent by Jesus Himself, they have received the Holy Ghost at the Pentecost they died as martires for not spreading the fulness of the Gospel?

But mormon missionaries yes.

 

[LittleSoldier]

---

Yes, that is better! I was not intending to depict L.D.S. Mormons as involved in Satanic ceremonies and incantations, that sort of thing, but rather that such gross errors arise from the pits of Hell to tempt would-be prophets astray.

Nonethess, there are many necromantic antics that occur in Mormon temples which are, to say the least, questionable and counter to good advice from the Bible not to meddle with departed spirits, something that is, obviously, closer to outright exercise of the demonic.

Jerry Parker

I remember as a teenager I belonged to a group of Catholic teens and we were taken to a Mormon temple (?). We were shown a film (using the latest technology; I was used to people pulling down a screen but these people had a remote!) but we were not allowed into part of the building as we were not Mormons. I have always wondered what was going on in that part of the building. They’ll show you everything in a Catholic Church. That part behind the altar, everything (there’s really nothing strange back there, anyway; just a couple of rooms for the priest and servers to dress and maybe a room for the Sacrament of Reconciliation). There is nothing to hide as long as proper respect is shown. We were showing proper respect. We were interested. And all we got was a film. I felt like we were not trusted or respected. I felt like we weren’t considered good enough. I felt like a door had been slammed in our faces and that we were being told to “go away; we don’t want your kind here!”

 

[LittleSoldier]

Did not know there was a improper way to post. I might post in a way you dislike, but that is the breaks. Last night, I posted from my ipad and I have not idea how to make it work on an ipad.

I don’t even know what an ipad is! I’m sorry; I just thought you should know. It does make it difficult to respond to your posts but the most important thing is that you post. So I’ll copy and paste as I do know how to do that. I wasn’t trying to be mean.

 

[Jerusha]

I wasn’t trying to be mean.

Texas may be a bit abrasive at times, but, really, that is just his style. His bark is loud, but he doesn’t bite.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Thank you.

Latter-day Saints believe that we are created in God’s image. We believe that this is both physical and spiritual. God is embodied, therefore since we are in His image, our bodies are similar to His. Latter-day Saints do not believe that we were living on this earth before God created us.

On omniscience, perhaps this quote from Ostler’s boo I mentioned earlier will be helpful in understanding the Latter-day Saint view (which we readily acknowledge is not shared by traditional Christians):
**
Joseph Smith saw in this primordial story the truth that God confronts good and evil through direct experience. He interpreted these often overlooked scriptures to mean that God continues to learn from experiences forever and has always been engaged in this experiential learning process. Thus, even a person who is already divine has a reason to become mortal: to continue the process of learning through experience.

The idea that a divine person may learn through mortal experience something that cannot be learned in any other way also has biblical support:

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in all things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of his people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. (Heb. 2:17–18; emphasis mine) **

An omniscient Being, by definition, knows ALL. God knew exactly what He would experience when He came to earth as God-Incarnate. He had no need to learn anything. Of course He suffered by being tempted; He was 100% man. All human beings suffer by being tempted.

The reason Jesus came to earth was not to learn (I’m sorry to say this but that is just silly) but because it was fitting and just that a perfect human being become the sacrifice that was needed to open the Gates of Heaven. Jesus did not become human in order to help HIMSELF; He became human in order to help US. God is perfectly just - humans closed the Gates of Heaven and a human would need to open them. Jesus became human and opened the Gates of Heaven by His holy sacrifice.

**
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey him. (Heb. 4:8–9)**

I have already pointed out that Hebrews 4:8-9 says nothing of the kind!

**
These scriptures find an echo in Alma 7:12: “And he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know how to succor his people according to their infirmities.”

There is a type of perfection that is possible only through first-hand experience. Experiential knowledge is, by its very nature, gained only through experience itself. Though Christ was very God, yet he learned from the things that he suffered and was made perfect thereby. Elsewhere I have argued that Joseph Smith taught that there is an aspect of divine knowledge, experiential knowledge, that is inexhaustible and to which there is no end or intrinsic maxima.39 Thus, there is an infinite possibility of experiential knowledge open even to God.**

So God (God who is omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent) had to come to earth in order to be perfected? If that is the Mormon position then Mormons do not believe in God. God was, is, will be perfect from and for eternity. He is not a weakling who needed to be taught a lesson by the beings He created in His own likeness.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I remember as a teenager I belonged to a group of Catholic teens and we were taken to a Mormon temple (?). We were shown a film (using the latest technology; I was used to people pulling down a screen but these people had a remote!) but we were not allowed into part of the building as we were not Mormons. I have always wondered what was going on in that part of the building. They’ll show you everything in a Catholic Church. That part behind the altar, everything (there’s really nothing strange back there, anyway; just a couple of rooms for the priest and servers to dress and maybe a room for the Sacrament of Reconciliation). There is nothing to hide as long as proper respect is shown. We were showing proper respect. We were interested. And all we got was a film. I felt like we were not trusted or respected. I felt like we weren’t considered good enough. I felt like a door had been slammed in our faces and that we were being told to “go away; we don’t want your kind here!”

Temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are generally open only to members of the Church that hold a “temple recommend”, given after a member meets with Church leaders and are asked about whether they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, whether they believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and Christ as our Lord and Savior, whether they believe in the Restoration, sustain their Church leaders, and follow various commandments. Prior to the dedication of a temple, the temple holds an open house, where all, members and non-members are welcome to tour the inside and outside of the temple. After dedication, temples are only open to those who hold a temple recommend. Restricting access to sacred buildings or areas is not something unique to the Church of Jesus Christ. The temple in ancient Judaism was not open to all, and only certain people could enter certain areas. In Eastern Orthodoxy, women generally are not permitted to go behind the iconostasis into the sanctuary, and laymen are only permitted for specific reasons, such as serving in the Divine Liturgy, and only after receiving a blessing from the priest (so I, as a non-Orthodox, could not just walk around the sanctuary of an Orthodox church, no matter how respectful and reverent I am). So, while Catholicism may allow anyone to go anywhere in their churches, other faiths, not just Latter-day Saint Christianity, have different practices. Our hope of course is for all to come unto Christ through His restored Gospel, and enter into the House of the Lord.

 

[LivingWaters7]

An omniscient Being, by definition, knows ALL. God knew exactly what He would experience when He came to earth as God-Incarnate. He had no need to learn anything. Of course He suffered by being tempted; He was 100% man. All human beings suffer by being tempted.

The reason Jesus came to earth was not to learn (I’m sorry to say this but that is just silly) but because it was fitting and just that a perfect human being become the sacrifice that was needed to open the Gates of Heaven. Jesus did not become human in order to help HIMSELF; He became human in order to help US. God is perfectly just - humans closed the Gates of Heaven and a human would need to open them. Jesus became human and opened the Gates of Heaven by His holy sacrifice.
I have already pointed out that Hebrews 4:8-9 says nothing of the kind!

So God (God who is omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent) had to come to earth in order to be perfected? If that is the Mormon position then Mormons do not believe in God. God was, is, will be perfect from and for eternity. He is not a weakling who needed to be taught a lesson by the beings He created in His own likeness.

That is Hebrews 5, not Hebrews 4
*
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;*

The point that the excerpt is making is that a certain type of knowledge, experiential knowledge, by definition, can only be obtained through experience. Otherwise, it is not, by definition, experiential knowledge. In that context, we see what Hebrews 5:8-9, and other verses, are talking about when they discuss the Son being made perfect, learning, growing in wisdom and stature (Luke 2), and ultimately is our divine Savior. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ came to earth to suffer and die for us in His atonement, and be resurrected for us, out of God’s infinite love.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are generally open only to members of the Church that hold a “temple recommend”, given after a member meets with Church leaders and are asked about whether they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, whether they believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and Christ as our Lord and Savior, whether they believe in the Restoration, sustain their Church leaders, and follow various commandments. Prior to the dedication of a temple, the temple holds an open house, where all, members and non-members are welcome to tour the inside and outside of the temple. After dedication, temples are only open to those who hold a temple recommend. Restricting access to sacred buildings or areas is not something unique to the Church of Jesus Christ. The temple in ancient Judaism was not open to all, and only certain people could enter certain areas. In Eastern Orthodoxy, women generally are not permitted to go behind the iconostasis into the sanctuary, and laymen are only permitted for specific reasons, such as serving in the Divine Liturgy, and only after receiving a blessing from the priest (so I, as a non-Orthodox, could not just walk around the sanctuary of an Orthodox church, no matter how respectful and reverent I am). So, while Catholicism may allow anyone to go anywhere in their churches, other faiths, not just Latter-day Saint Christianity, have different practices. Our hope of course is for all to come unto Christ through His restored Gospel, and enter into the House of the Lord.

But I am not referring to Jewish temples or to the churches in Eastern Orthodoxy. I am clearly speaking of the Mormon Church only.