Mormonism

[LittleSoldier]

That is Hebrews 5, not Hebrews 4
*
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;*

The point that the excerpt is making is that a certain type of knowledge, experiential knowledge, by definition, can only be obtained through experience. Otherwise, it is not, by definition, experiential knowledge. In that context, we see what Hebrews 5:8-9, and other verses, are talking about when they discuss the Son being made perfect, learning, growing in wisdom and stature (Luke 2), and ultimately is our divine Savior. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ came to earth to suffer and die for us in His atonement, and be resurrected for us, out of God’s infinite love.

What you write of about experiential knowledge applies to human beings (and lower animals) - not to God. He is already perfect, has always been perfect, and will always be perfect. I am not an expert in the Greek language but I suspect that the word “learned” should have been translated as “experienced.” And again, as I spoke of before, Jesus became human not to learn. His experiences as a human being were for our benefit - the created. An omniscient Being does not have to learn, and especially does not have to learn in the way that the beings He created have to learn!

However, on the surface, this passage appears to support your position and as I am not an expert on the Bible (or Greek) I will speak to someone who is at least pretty much an expert on the Bible (though not the Greek language) - compared to me. Also, I wish to read the entire chapter in order to understand the context in which this passage appears.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Texas may be a bit abrasive at times, but, really, that is just his style. His bark is loud, but he doesn’t bite.

Thanks. That helps.

 

[TexanKnight]

I don’t even know what an ipad is! I’m sorry; I just thought you should know. It does make it difficult to respond to your posts but the most important thing is that you post. So I’ll copy and paste as I do know how to do that. I wasn’t trying to be mean.

Geez, I was not upset or anything. I was just explaining. Please forgive me if you thought I was snippy.

To be honest, I HATE typing. So, I tend to type as little as possible which leads to me sounding abrupt.

it would be cool if we could all meet at a gathering. Everyone could see how each other really is. It is hard when you can’t see facial expressions. If y’all could see me typing, you would 1. Mock me for using two fingers 2. See that 99% of the time, I am smiling as I am typing. I think this board is fun and I love all the Catholics standing up for what they believe in.

At work, I am known as the Honeybadger because I get things done…but no one is more of a jokester than I am.

All is well

 

[TexanKnight]

Temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are generally open only to members of the Church that hold a “temple recommend”, given after a member meets with Church leaders and are asked about whether they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, whether they believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and Christ as our Lord and Savior, whether they believe in the Restoration, sustain their Church leaders, and follow various commandments. Prior to the dedication of a temple, the temple holds an open house, where all, members and non-members are welcome to tour the inside and outside of the temple. After dedication, temples are only open to those who hold a temple recommend. Restricting access to sacred buildings or areas is not something unique to the Church of Jesus Christ. The temple in ancient Judaism was not open to all, and only certain people could enter certain areas. In Eastern Orthodoxy, women generally are not permitted to go behind the iconostasis into the sanctuary, and laymen are only permitted for specific reasons, such as serving in the Divine Liturgy, and only after receiving a blessing from the priest (so I, as a non-Orthodox, could not just walk around the sanctuary of an Orthodox church, no matter how respectful and reverent I am). So, while Catholicism may allow anyone to go anywhere in their churches, other faiths, not just Latter-day Saint Christianity, have different practices. Our hope of course is for all to come unto Christ through His restored Gospel, and enter into the House of the Lord.

Let us be VERY clear. The LDS temple uses Masonic ceremonies and until 1990 included promises to be and be killed. Additionally, you can believe in their God, never miss a church meeting, follow the commandments, give all your free time to God, but if you do not PAY YOUR MONEY, you still cannot get into the temple, which means you can’t get into heaven.

This is a sad, but very true fact. One of the reasons I left the LDS Church is because I could believe that the True God charged admittance into heaven.

Be Blessed

 

[LittleSoldier]

Geez, I was not upset or anything. I was just explaining. Please forgive me if you thought I was snippy.

To be honest, I HATE typing. So, I tend to type as little as possible which leads to me sounding abrupt.

it would be cool if we could all meet at a gathering. Everyone could see how each other really is. It is hard when you can’t see facial expressions. If y’all could see me typing, you would 1. Mock me for using two fingers 2. See that 99% of the time, I am smiling as I am typing. I think this board is fun and I love all the Catholics standing up for what they believe in.

At work, I am known as the Honeybadger because I get things done…but no one is more of a jokester than I am.

All is well

Wouldn’t it be so nice to be up in the mountains, with us all sitting around a campfire and just talking? The Internet is a poor medium for communication (but then we can talk to people all over the world by just clicking and that’s good).

If y’all could see me typing you would laugh because I’m missing half of my left index finger (bone infection due to my own confused dog’s bite) and I am an awful typist anyway. I also talk to myself. Sometimes I’ll say (out loud) “Put that in your pipe and smoke it!” (That often happens right before someone posts something that puts me back in my place.) Sometimes a cat will climb up on the keyboard and weird things happen. Or my cats will be fighting (I have six so that is a constant problem) and I’m trying to type while yelling at them to knock it off and looking for that spray bottle I can never find (I sprayed my dog once and she loved it; she tries to catch the spray in her mouth; to her it’s a game ).

I also have a very dry sense of humor and often people take me seriously when I’m joking and then I have to explain that I have a very dry sense of humor and I don’t think they believe me.

Yes - all is well.

And now, to avert a moderator warning I will return to the topic of this thread.

 

[RebeccaJ]

---

Well, yes, the “take” of the Articles of Faith is skewed, but this matter deserves a more explicit explanation than these amusing words. Actually, those Articles of Faith reflect rather well what Mormons had believed before Joseph Smiths slide into polytheism. He once was, roughly speaking, Trinitarian, or perhaps more properly one less of the godhead (for God the Father and the Son being One God, leaving much ambiguity regarding the Holy Ghost), but the L.D.S. Mormons left this more traditional reasoning behind as Joseph Smiths late teachings introduced polytheism. Even today L.D.S. Mormons can say the words of the Articles of Faith while not meaning what a Christian would understand those words to mean.

Joseph’s changing doctrine of deity

 

[RebeccaJ]

Did not know there was a improper way to post. I might post in a way you dislike, but that is the breaks. Last night, I posted from my ipad and I have not idea how to make it work on an ipad.

Takes work and is kind of painful. You have to highlight the portion you want to quote and then hit the quote button, up there ^^^ when you are writing a post.

Or type it manually, quote ] /quote ] (without the spaces) will quote any block of words that you put in-between the tags.

 

[RebeccaJ]

latter-day saints do not state that mary was not a virgin. We firmly believe that mary, the mother of our savior jesus christ, was indeed a virgin at the time of conception.

The Virgin birth of Jesus Christ, is what everyone else is talking about.

 

[LittleSoldier]

That is Hebrews 5, not Hebrews 4
*
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;*

The point that the excerpt is making is that a certain type of knowledge, experiential knowledge, by definition, can only be obtained through experience. Otherwise, it is not, by definition, experiential knowledge. In that context, we see what Hebrews 5:8-9, and other verses, are talking about when they discuss the Son being made perfect, learning, growing in wisdom and stature (Luke 2), and ultimately is our divine Savior. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ came to earth to suffer and die for us in His atonement, and be resurrected for us, out of God’s infinite love.

I haven’t talked to anyone but I’ve read the chapter. I’m going to concede this point - PARTIALLY. The passage does not say that Jesus was made perfect by learning obedience. It says that “being made perfect…” This is ambiguous. It could be referring to the definition of what God is - perfect. “God, being made perfect…” can also be stated as “God is made perfect.” It’s difficult to describe a Being we do not fully understand but we do know that He is perfect, has always been perfect, and will always be perfect. I do not believe (nor does the Church teach) that Jesus needed experiential knowledge in order to learn. We, as fallible human beings, do. What I believe is that it was fitting for Jesus to become human in order to help us. He did not have to learn from experience because He already knew. That is what omniscience means. But He did experience suffering and temptation as a human being. I believe this is much more complicated than what you have portrayed it as (and I realize that we are limited as to space and that you know this, too). If anything it points to the submission of the Christ to God the Father in obedience - which proves His love. The rest of the chapter indicates that this was being presented to a group of people who had very little understanding of God (they still were not ready for solid food but needed to continue to drink milk).

I agree 100% with your last sentence. Jesus came to earth as God-Incarnate in order to offer Himself up as a living sacrifice in atonement for our sins. God, being perfectly just, required a perfect human sacrifice. Not even Mary could successfully complete this sacrifice. But I do not believe that God, in any form, required or requires experience in order to learn or become perfect. He, as God, is already perfect. Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen to Him and how He would respond.

Would you now please tell me about the relationship between the Mormon Church and the Masons? (Sorry for the abrupt detour here.)

 

[garyo49]

Temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are generally open only to members of the Church that hold a “temple recommend”, given after a member meets with Church leaders and are asked about whether they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, whether they believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and Christ as our Lord and Savior, whether they believe in the Restoration, sustain their Church leaders, and follow various commandments. Prior to the dedication of a temple, the temple holds an open house, where all, members and non-members are welcome to tour the inside and outside of the temple. After dedication, temples are only open to those who hold a temple recommend. Restricting access to sacred buildings or areas is not something unique to the Church of Jesus Christ. The temple in ancient Judaism was not open to all, and only certain people could enter certain areas. In Eastern Orthodoxy, women generally are not permitted to go behind the iconostasis into the sanctuary, and laymen are only permitted for specific reasons, such as serving in the Divine Liturgy, and only after receiving a blessing from the priest (so I, as a non-Orthodox, could not just walk around the sanctuary of an Orthodox church, no matter how respectful and reverent I am). So, while Catholicism may allow anyone to go anywhere in their churches, other faiths, not just Latter-day Saint Christianity, have different practices. Our hope of course is for all to come unto Christ through His restored Gospel, and enter into the House of the Lord.

Which other commandments? You didn’t need a recomend to get in to the Old Testament temple, did you? What about the Masonic handshakes and all of the Masonry that found it’s way into the mormon temple ceremony two months after Smith became a Mason? Now, there is a coincidence for you. You have to be rather gullible to fall for that one. Tell us about the temple ordinances you practice that has never had anything to do with Christianity Will this ever end?.:banghead::banghead:

 

[garyo49]

I haven’t talked to anyone but I’ve read the chapter. I’m going to concede this point - PARTIALLY. The passage does not say that Jesus was made perfect by learning obedience. It says that “being made perfect…” This is ambiguous. It could be referring to the definition of what God is - perfect. “God, being made perfect…” can also be stated as “God is made perfect.” It’s difficult to describe a Being we do not fully understand but we do know that He is perfect, has always been perfect, and will always be perfect. I do not believe (nor does the Church teach) that Jesus needed experiential knowledge in order to learn. We, as fallible human beings, do. What I believe is that it was fitting for Jesus to become human in order to help us. He did not have to learn from experience because He already knew. That is what omniscience means. But He did experience suffering and temptation as a human being. I believe this is much more complicated than what you have portrayed it as (and I realize that we are limited as to space and that you know this, too). If anything it points to the submission of the Christ to God the Father in obedience - which proves His love. The rest of the chapter indicates that this was being presented to a group of people who had very little understanding of God (they still were not ready for solid food but needed to continue to drink milk).

I agree 100% with your last sentence. Jesus came to earth as God-Incarnate in order to offer Himself up as a living sacrifice in atonement for our sins. God, being perfectly just, required a perfect human sacrifice. Not even Mary could successfully complete this sacrifice. But I do not believe that God, in any form, required or requires experience in order to learn or become perfect. He, as God, is already perfect. Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen to Him and how He would re

Would you now please tell me about the relationship between the Mormon Church and the Masons? (Sorry for the abrupt detour here.)

Check this out. exmormon.org/journey/journey_g.htm
. .

 

[Stephen168]

Which other commandments? You didn’t need a recomend to get in to the Old Testament temple, did you? What about the Masonic handshakes and all of the Masonry that found it’s way into the mormon temple ceremony two months after Smith became a Mason? Now, there is a coincidence for you. You have to be rather gullible to fall for that one. Tell us about the temple ordinances you practice that has never had anything to do with Christianity Will this ever end?.:banghead::banghead:

I just read on a Judaish website that the rituals preformed in “The Temple” were sacrifices and most of the sacrifices were eaten. Are any Mormon Temple rituals sacrifices?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Joseph Smith taught in Oct. 1840 that animal sacrifices in the Mormon temple would be practiced. Brigham Young taught the same in Salt Lake. There are a few people who wrote of performing animal sacrifices in the SLC temple, in a clandestine fashion, but it is not a practice that took hold.

Mormons don’t perform any ritual sacrifices, other than as has been mentioned, they performed a symbolic one as part of oathes. Making motions of slitting their own throat and slicing open their own torso. These symbols and actions were removed from the Mormon temple ceremony in 1991.

 

[garyo49]

I just read on a Judaish website that the rituals preformed in “The Temple” were sacrifices and most of the sacrifices were eaten. Are any Mormon Temple rituals sacrifices?

They are very selective who they let in so who knows.:banghead::banghead:

 

[TexanKnight]

They are very selective who they let in so who knows.:banghead::banghead:

There was nothing like that when i attended LDS Temple. Just the mutual promises to kill each other.

 

[garyo49]

There was nothing like that when i attended LDS Temple. Just the mutual promises to kill each other.

And the oath to avenge Smiths death for generation unto generation. So much for “we don’t believe that the children should be responsible for Adams transgression or the children of the killers of Smith for their father’s transgression”. Texas I was being facetious about the sacrifices.:banghead::banghead:

 

[MJE]

Have there ever been deaths associated w/ these blood oaths?

 

[Jerusha]

Brigham Young compared Pratt’s death with those of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, and many Mormons blamed the death on the state of Arkansas, or its people.

Due to his personal popularity and his position in the Council of the Twelve, Pratt’s murder in Arkansas was a significant blow to the Latter-day Saint community in the Rocky Mountains, when they began hearing about it in June 1857. The violent death of Pratt may also have played a part in events leading up to the Mountain Meadows massacre a few months later. This massacre resulted in the deaths of 120 people from the Baker–Fancher party travelling to Southern California along the Mormon Road (a portion of the Old Spanish Trail). After the massacre, some Mormons circulated rumors throughout the southern Utah Territory that one or more members of the party had murdered Pratt, poisoned creek water which subsequently sickened Paiute children, and allowed their cattle to graze on private property.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parley_P._Pratt

One example.

 

[LivingWaters7]

The Virgin birth of Jesus Christ, is what everyone else is talking about.

Of course that is what I was talking about (it would be illogical to state that Mary was a virgin at her conception).

 

[LivingWaters7]

But I am not referring to Jewish temples or to the churches in Eastern Orthodoxy. I am clearly speaking of the Mormon Church only.

I know what you were talking about. You missed the point, which is that temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not the only buildings or areas in the Judeo-Christian faiths that are “restricted” for various reasons. You provided a contrast to your experience in not being allowed access to a Latter-day Saint temple (despite your respect) and feeling like you weren’t “good enough” to being allowed to go/see anywhere in a Catholic church, where there is “nothing to hide as long as proper respect is shown.” I therefore provided two examples of similar practices in the Jewish temple and in Eastern Orthodox church sanctuaries, where access to certain areas of their sacred spaces is restricted.