Mormonism

[1voice]

The Church being taken off the earth for a period of time does not mean that Jesus Christ failed

Where is there any evidence that the Church was ever taken off the Earth? … and who ever said that it happened?
I’d say that there is a huge burden of proof required for anyone that makes such a statement.

(and this applies to other instances in the Bible of human failings, sins, etc), but instead points to the fallibility and failings of humans, and the restoration of Christ’s Church points to God’s infinite love and mercy for us.

The act of assuming that your first statement (that the Church was taken from the Earth) is true based on the fact that people are fallible and God’s love and mercy are huge … is false reasoning. One does not support/ prove or imply the other in any way. It is faulty reasoning… Dont you see that?

In addition…
The foundation of all that you say here… and all that the Mormon faith holds to be true is in the (transcribed/translated/revealed) writings produced through Joseph Smith.
Joseph Smith stated in the 8th Article of Faith, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.”
Mormons hold that standard for the Bible … Yet they do not hold that same standard for the writing produced through Joseph Smith.

 

[1voice]

You don’t need to take my word for it, nor was I claiming or implying that Augustine was infallible. It was stated that Jesus did not break the gates of hades, and I provided one link (out of many) that shows that this is a common belief. I provided a link to the Summa Theologica, which quotes Augustine as saying just that, so there is nothing “cherry-picked” about it.

I’m not asking you to accept anything. The purpose is to correctly portray the teachings and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I’m not concerned with whether someone accepts them or doesn’t (nor am I concerned with accepting Catholic/Orthodox/Lutheran/Anglican/Baptist/Muslim/etc teaching, besides accurate portrayal of their own teaching).

Latter-day Saints believe that the apostasy and restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ was predicted by ancient Biblical prophets. We believe that the apostasy of the Lord’s Church was not a failing on His part, since He is perfect, but a failing on the part of humans, who are not perfect, and are allowed to freely choose, and God will not force them to do something they do not want to do. We see this principle throughout the Bible, throughout salvation history. The people reject the Lord’s servants, God withholds blessings/guidance from those that do not desire Him, then He calls another prophet to lead the people. However, there have always been true believers, and God guides those people, and does not withhold His guidance from them. We believe that this was true even during the apostasy of the Church of Jesus Christ, until the Lord, in His own time, decided to call a prophet and restore His Church.

Again, the Bible is full of examples of apostasy and restoration throughout history. It does not mean that the gates of hades prevailed, since, for one reason among many (as already discussed), the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored by God. Further, the Church of Jesus Christ believes that God has provided a means, through ordinances in our temples, by which those that did not hear the Gospel in this life, whether in recent times, or anciently, can have that chance to accept the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the same way that Jesus Christ descended to Hades and rescued the faithful, many of whom were probably there for “hundreds” or “thousands” of years, these people also are rescued through Christ’s atonement and God’s priesthood. Latter-day Saints also believe that all people have the Light of Christ, even during times of apostasy, and those that seek after God will hear His voice.

Think about it.
You (that is Mormons) are the new kid on the block. the burden of proof is huge …that the LDS Church is not the apostasy.
Jesus clearly warned future, faithful Christians:
… “many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.”
… Matt 24:5

---

Joseph Smith made extensive changes and additions to the books of Genesis, Exodus, Psalms, Isaiah, Matthew, Luke, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, and Revelation. He also made many alterations in the writings of the Old Testament prophets and in Mark, John, Acts, and several of the epistles. . He made changes in all other books of the Bible except for… Ruth, Ezra, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Obadiah, Micah, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi, Philemon, 2 John, and 3 John and he rejected the Song of Solomon as not being inspired scripture.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay on the topic, not each other.

 

[RebeccaJ]

it would be nice if you just posted it,

Question 52, Article 5, paragraph 4

 

[RebeccaJ]

I would be interested in seeing this clarification, I’m not familiar with it.

I’m not really concerned with aligning with Catholic doctrine. What I am concerned with is the accurate portrayal of Latter–day Saint belief. Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was a virgin during conception of Jesus Christ, as well as in the birth of Jesus Christ. We do not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Prophets and Apostles in the restored Church of Jesus Christ have emphasized the literal Sonship of Christ, meaning that He is the actual Son of the Father.

As far as “divine artificial insemination”, I think the point is that Jesus Christ’s humanity obviously means that He had/has 46 chromosomes, and is XY. We know that Mary is His mother, however obviously she did not contribute all of her genetic identity to Him, since the Y sex-determining chromosome must come from a male (since females are XX). So, where did it come from? Maybe God the Father created it within Mary at conception. That is all speculative (though interesting, and I notice that there are a few threads on the matter right on this forum). But the point is that Christ is the divine Son of the Father, and was born of the virgin Mary.

Links that help to further understand how Latter-day Saints view this issue:

fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Did_God_have_Sex_with_Mary.pdf
en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Conception

That is what YOU believe. You should understand, that when I was LDS, I was taught very explicitly more than once that Mary conceived Jesus by intercourse with the god you call God the Father. Mormons that I have discussions with, or read their postings on forums, have differing opinions to each other. You just gave yours. Yesterday I read a Mormon who wrote the Catholic doctrine of the Virgin Birth is a sign of the “apostate church”.

This persons’s opinion of course aligns to the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith. That’s just a short list of Mormon leaders who have taught this " doctrine".

So, you need to quit ignoring TexasKnight. What your so-called prophets taught, and the Mormons who believe them, are not going to go away.

 

[Allen2Saint]

I am not a Chaplain, but I, too, have taught in prisons. I believe we should be charitable to the people but very uncharitable to the heresies. If we do not speak out strongly against false doctrine, we acquiesce to it. If we do not speak boldly against untruth, we are de facto accepting of that false truth.

Our leaders have not told us to be meek against false doctrine, but to fight it with all our being.

My quotes speak for themselves.

As an ex Mormon who served as a missionary, I understand the danger of the doctrine.

As a chaplain, my role is to accept the person as is and work from there. I do not change minds about spirituality, except for my preferred method, by my ability to treat each person and their spiritual experience of illness with dignity, while maintaining who I am. So, my statements speak for themselves as well.

 

[TexanKnight]

As a chaplain, my role is to accept the person as is and work from there. I do not change minds about spirituality, except for my preferred method, by my ability to treat each person and their spiritual experience of illness with dignity, while maintaining who I am. So, my statements speak for themselves as well.

Fair enough, though I will take quotes from Saints and Popes over personal quotes any day.

Mu goal here is not to change minds about anything. It is to make sure any readers here know the truth about the LDS Church. I want to correct the doctrine the LDS Members try to get away with here.

That is a different goal than you have. I am sure you are a great Chaplain. I would like to think I am a pretty ok ex-LDS Missionary.

Be Blessed

 

[TexanKnight]

Brigham Young, second prophet and president of the LDS church said,

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Brigham Young also said, “Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).

Brigham Young said, “When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218).

Joseph Fielding Smith, stated

“The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit,” (Religious Truths Defined, p. 44, as cited in the book, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, by Gerald and Sandra Tanner, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, P.O. Box 1884, Salt Lake City, Utah 84110, bookstore at 1358 South West Temple, 1982, p. 260).

Joseph Fielding Smith said, “They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible.” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 19).

Bruce McConkie, who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated,

“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers,” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547).

“And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events,…Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man.” (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742).

Heber C. Kimball who was a member of the first presidency said,

“In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it.” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211).

 

[LittleSoldier]

Check this out. exmormon.org/journey/journey_g.htm
. .

Is this true? Was Joseph Smith a Mason? Polygamy, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Blood Atonement…what is going on in this organization?

 

[LittleSoldier]

I know what you were talking about. You missed the point, which is that temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not the only buildings or areas in the Judeo-Christian faiths that are “restricted” for various reasons. You provided a contrast to your experience in not being allowed access to a Latter-day Saint temple (despite your respect) and feeling like you weren’t “good enough” to being allowed to go/see anywhere in a Catholic church, where there is “nothing to hide as long as proper respect is shown.” I therefore provided two examples of similar practices in the Jewish temple and in Eastern Orthodox church sanctuaries, where access to certain areas of their sacred spaces is restricted.

Excuse me, but you *do not *know what I was talking about. I was referring specifically to the Mormon Church, not to any Judao-Christian faiths. As far as I can tell Mormons are not Christians.

And it matters not, anyway. It doesn’t matter if every other faith in the world (with the exception of the one Truth Faith - Catholicism) excludes outsiders. Consensus does not define truth or ethics or proper behavior.

 

[LittleSoldier]

If you’re going to refer to something quoted from Saint Augustine in the Summa, please post the full paragraph and section you’re referring to, so we can all read it for ourselves. I’m guessing that seeing the full context would help us all, immensely.

Your purpose seems more to be to somehow imply that LDS teachings are “the same as” or “similar to” Catholic teachings, which is completely erroneous.

The OT references that LDS always bring up are to the falling away from God by the Jews who rejected Jesus, not the falling away of the Church that Jesus established. His Church can never fail because He sustains it. He would never allow it to fail.

All throughout the time of the Old Testament, the Savior had not come, yet. The Jews were constantly abandoning God, being punished, and returning to His favor through the guidance of the Prophets. After Jesus came into the world, there was no longer any need for more new prophets, because He was the Perfection of the Prophets. He was the Alpha and Omega of all of the Prophets. He was the Final Word that God would have to say to the world. Following His Gospel, written by those that were actual witnesses to His life, through His Church, is all that’s necessary for our salvation.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Again, Latter-day Saints believe that God allows free will choice, and to say that He would never allow the Church to fail seems to imply that God would force people to accept Him (please correct me if I’m wrong). Latter-day Saints believe that God allows people to choose, and, as evidenced in the Fall and throughout Biblical history, He always has a plan for our human failings, in His mercy and love for us, as well as in His omniscience. Jesus Christ is at the Head of His Church always, however we are also members of His body. The Church being taken off the earth for a period of time does not mean that Jesus Christ failed (and this applies to other instances in the Bible of human failings, sins, etc), but instead points to the fallibility and failings of humans, and the restoration of Christ’s Church points to God’s infinite love and mercy for us.

The Bible states that the Church is the Body of Christ. How could the Church, being the Body of Christ, fail? The Church is present in Heaven as the Church Triumphant but it is also always present on earth as the Church Militant. It is impossible for the Church founded by God to fail on earth or Heaven. It just cannot happen.

 

[hosemonkey]

Is this true? Was Joseph Smith a Mason? Polygamy, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Blood Atonement…what is going on in this organization?

Yes, this is true. About two months after he was initiated, passed and raised in the local masonic lodge, Joseph Smith came up with the so-called “endowment” that all mormon believers must undergo. This “endowment ceremony” is a virtual duplicate of the masonic initiation ritual. I was a Master Mason for 25 years before my conversion to the True Faith and I underwent this ceremony myself. Mountain Meadows is a dark chapter that mormons would very much like to forget, but history points to involvement with the mormon hierarchy, including perhaps Brigham Young himself. Blood atonement theology says that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not enough in the forgiveness of some sins, but that the blood of the sinner must be shed.
Sadly, much of mormon theology and practice, as promulgated and invented by Joseph Smith, is hay that has already been through the horse, Caveat Emptor!

 

[Telstar]

Question 52, Article 5, paragraph 4

Thank you, Rebecca. I appreciate your effort in finding that segment.

From reading it, I can see that Augustine’s statement did refer to Jesus freeing the the righteous souls that were still “imprisoned” by not being able to enter Heaven, due to the effects of Original Sin, even if their actual sins were already purged. In that case, I think it refers to them being either in Limbo or Purgatory, not Hell. Most souls have to spend at least some time in Purgatory, but the punishments there are not permanent, as they are in Hell. Jesus didn’t break down the gates of the Hell of the damned to free any of them. Their punishment is eternal, with no hope for escape. Jesus may have entered Hell, but He didn’t free the damned.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you, Rebecca. I appreciate your effort in finding that segment.

From reading it, I can see that Augustine’s statement did refer to Jesus freeing the the righteous souls that were still “imprisoned” by not being able to enter Heaven, due to the effects of Original Sin, even if their actual sins were already purged. In that case, I think it refers to them being either in Limbo or Purgatory, not Hell. Most souls have to spend at least some time in Purgatory, but the punishments there are not permanent, as they are in Hell. Jesus didn’t break down the gates of the Hell of the damned to free any of them. Their punishment is eternal, with no hope for escape. Jesus may have entered Hell, but He didn’t free the damned.

Yes, exactly. I hope now LivingWaters7 can see how he has taken Catholic writing out of context.

I’ll add just a small bit from the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on hell:

Hell (infernus) in theological usage is a place of punishment after death. Theologians distinguish four meanings of the term hell:

• hell in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men;
• the limbo of infants (limbus parvulorum), where those who die in original sin alone, and without personal mortal sin, are confined and undergo some kind of punishment;
• the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam;
• purgatory, where the just, who die in venial sin or who still owe a debt of temporal punishment for sin, are cleansed by suffering before their admission to heaven.

 

[lax16]

Right, and the doctrine of the virgin birth includes not only the actual birth of Jesus Christ, but also the virginal conception of Jesus Christ for, so I am not sure what the issue is here. A quick Google search, even specific to Catholicism, demonstrates this.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus
scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm
cathtruth.com/catholicbible/virbirth.htm

Etc.

Also, it is obvious, not only from the post to which I was originally responding to, but also a common critic of alleged Latter-day Saint doctrine, that we are talking specifically of the conception of Jesus Christ, so it is clear what we were talking about.

If I was not clear before, let me be clear in stating that Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was a virgin during conception of our divine Savior Jesus Christ, and also during the birth of Jesus Christ.

As a student pharmacist, in some detail.

Latter-day Saints believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

LivingWaters7 - Are you saying that the LDS believe this now or that the LDS never taught it?

Wilford Woodruff - 4th President 1887-1989
“And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family. Jesus, our elder brother, was **begotten in the flesh **by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.”

Brigham Young - 2nd President 1847-1877
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; **it was the result **of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.”

Ezra Taft Benson - 13th President 1985-1994
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father."

Joseph Fielding Smith - 10th President 1970-72
“Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of man, and that man was God! They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge this statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible.”

Joseph F. Smith - 6th President 1901-1918
“You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers, you all know that don’t you? You cannot deny it. **Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was **begotten of his father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God but of the spirit that overhsadowed his mother. This is nonsense. Why will not the world receive the truth? Why will they not believe the Father when he says that Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son? Why will they try to explain this truth away and make mystery of it?”

 

[TexanKnight]

Is this true? Was Joseph Smith a Mason? Polygamy, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Blood Atonement…what is going on in this organization?

Yes. Joseph was a Mason. He got promoted very quickly in the ranks and took their ceremony to make his own temple ceremony. This is in keeping with his knack of lifting from others to create his own stuff.

Yes. Joseph was caught having an affair with Fanny Alger. To cover it up, he instituted polygamy.

Yes. The Mormons attacked and killed innocent men, women and children and kidnapped the very young children. They then blamed the indians. There were three trials but only one person was ever convicted. This, in spite of Brigham Young being behind it all.

Yes. Brigham Young started blood oaths. Those promises to kill each other existed in temple ceremonies until at least 1990.

 

[hosemonkey]

Yes. Joseph was a Mason. He got promoted very quickly in the ranks and took their ceremony to make his own temple ceremony. This is in keeping with his knack of lifting from others to create his own stuff.

Yes. Joseph was caught having an affair with Fanny Alger. To cover it up, he instituted polygamy.

Here is a difinitive statement regarding Joseph Smith’s disregard of Scripture in his use of the occult in inventing the mormon “church.”
"These statements demonstrate that much of the religious ritual within Mormonism finds its origin in both occultism and Freemasonry. It is not surprising that there is an overlap between occultism and Freemasonry within Mormonism since Masonry itself draws from occult lore and ritual. What becomes obvious is that Joseph neglected the Bible’s clear prohibition regarding occult involvement. This is found in Deuteronomy 18:9-12 which states in part,

… thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shalt not be found among you any one that … useth divination, or is an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits [demons], or a wizard, or a necromancer [one who communicates with the dead]. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD.

So here, what we have is not a prophet of God, but a common charlatan who was heavily involved in occultic practices for his own benefit and to amass power over his duped followers.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Thank you, Rebecca. I appreciate your effort in finding that segment.

From reading it, I can see that Augustine’s statement did refer to Jesus freeing the the righteous souls that were still “imprisoned” by not being able to enter Heaven, due to the effects of Original Sin, even if their actual sins were already purged. In that case, I think it refers to them being either in Limbo or Purgatory, not Hell. Most souls have to spend at least some time in Purgatory, but the punishments there are not permanent, as they are in Hell. Jesus didn’t break down the gates of the Hell of the damned to free any of them. Their punishment is eternal, with no hope for escape. Jesus may have entered Hell, but He didn’t free the damned.

Thanks, Rebecca and Telstar. There are several terms for it. The Bosom of Abraham is just one. It simply means that even the righteous could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven because the gates were closed. The people there had lived good lives; they were not in hell in any sense of the word except one - they were not with God. That is where Jesus went after the Crucifixion (“He descended into hell”); it no longer exists as the Gates of Heaven are open due to Jesus’ sacrifice.

Thanks for bringing this up again. I missed the post on it and was going to try to find out what was said in context. It *is * referred to as hell in the Apostles’ Creed but it was understood that it was a *part *of hell - not the hell for the damned.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yes. Joseph was a Mason. He got promoted very quickly in the ranks and took their ceremony to make his own temple ceremony. This is in keeping with his knack of lifting from others to create his own stuff.

Yes. Joseph was caught having an affair with Fanny Alger. To cover it up, he instituted polygamy.

Yes. The Mormons attacked and killed innocent men, women and children and kidnapped the very young children. They then blamed the indians. There were three trials but only one person was ever convicted. This, in spite of Brigham Young being behind it all.

Yes. Brigham Young started blood oaths. Those promises to kill each other existed in temple ceremonies until at least 1990.

:sad_yes::clapping: