Mormonism

[TexanKnight]

Of course that is what I was talking about (it would be illogical to state that Mary was a virgin at her conception).

First, she could NOT have been a Virgin according to Brigham Young.

Second, Mormons do not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Of course that is what I was talking about (it would be illogical to state that Mary was a virgin at her conception).

Virgin birth.

I think this is a odd question, but I have to ask, do you understand the difference between conception and birth?

As far as I know Mormons don’t believe in the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Virgin birth.

Right, and the doctrine of the virgin birth includes not only the actual birth of Jesus Christ, but also the virginal conception of Jesus Christ for, so I am not sure what the issue is here. A quick Google search, even specific to Catholicism, demonstrates this.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus
scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm
cathtruth.com/catholicbible/virbirth.htm

Etc.

Also, it is obvious, not only from the post to which I was originally responding to, but also a common critic of alleged Latter-day Saint doctrine, that we are talking specifically of the conception of Jesus Christ, so it is clear what we were talking about.

If I was not clear before, let me be clear in stating that Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was a virgin during conception of our divine Savior Jesus Christ, and also during the birth of Jesus Christ.

I think this is a odd question, but I have to ask, do you understand the difference between conception and birth?

As a student pharmacist, in some detail.

As far as I know Mormon don’t believe in the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Latter-day Saints believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jerusha]

I don’t believe your statement was claer enough. Would:

Most present-day Latter-day Saints believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

be more accurate?

 

[TexanKnight]

Right, and the doctrine of the virgin birth includes not only the actual birth of Jesus Christ, but also the virginal conception of Jesus Christ for, so I am not sure what the issue is here. A quick Google search, even specific to Catholicism, demonstrates this.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus
scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm
cathtruth.com/catholicbible/virbirth.htm

Etc.

Also, it is obvious, not only from the post to which I was originally responding to, but also a common critic of alleged Latter-day Saint doctrine, that we are talking specifically of the conception of Jesus Christ, so it is clear what we were talking about.

If I was not clear before, let me be clear in stating that Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was a virgin during conception of our divine Savior Jesus Christ, and also during the birth of Jesus Christ.

As a student pharmacist, in some detail.

Latter-day Saints believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

I understand you keep dodging my questions…I do not blame you really. But how can you possible believe in the Virgin Birth when one of your very own prophets said she conceived JUST LIKE ANY OTHER WOMAN. That means she would have lost her virginity. Dodge me all you want, but that is a fact you cannot run from.

 

[Telstar]

I haven’t talked to anyone but I’ve read the chapter. I’m going to concede this point - PARTIALLY. The passage does not say that Jesus was made perfect by learning obedience. It says that “being made perfect…” This is ambiguous. It could be referring to the definition of what God is - perfect. “God, being made perfect…” can also be stated as “God is made perfect.” It’s difficult to describe a Being we do not fully understand but we do know that He is perfect, has always been perfect, and will always be perfect. I do not believe (nor does the Church teach) that Jesus needed experiential knowledge in order to learn. We, as fallible human beings, do. What I believe is that it was fitting for Jesus to become human in order to help us. He did not have to learn from experience because He already knew. That is what omniscience means. But He did experience suffering and temptation as a human being. I believe this is much more complicated than what you have portrayed it as (and I realize that we are limited as to space and that you know this, too). If anything it points to the submission of the Christ to God the Father in obedience - which proves His love. The rest of the chapter indicates that this was being presented to a group of people who had very little understanding of God (they still were not ready for solid food but needed to continue to drink milk).

I agree 100% with your last sentence. Jesus came to earth as God-Incarnate in order to offer Himself up as a living sacrifice in atonement for our sins. God, being perfectly just, required a perfect human sacrifice. Not even Mary could successfully complete this sacrifice. But I do not believe that God, in any form, required or requires experience in order to learn or become perfect. He, as God, is already perfect. Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen to Him and how He would respond.

Would you now please tell me about the relationship between the Mormon Church and the Masons? (Sorry for the abrupt detour here.)

Don’t let LW confuse you, LittleSoldier. That passage is referring to Jesus when He was living on earth, as a man. He conveniently disregarded mentioning the key line preceding his quote, that puts it all in perspective. Hebrews 5: [7] Who in the days of his flesh, with a strong cry and tears, offering up prayers and supplications to him that was able to save him from death, was heard for his reverence. [8] And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered: [9] And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. [10] Called by God a high priest according to the order of Melchisedech. Jesus learned and grew as any other man would when He was living on earth. But as God, He had no need to learn anything by taking on flesh. LDS believe He came to earth to learn and experience certain things so He could “progress” like His Father supposedly did. That’s where the contradiction is in LDS belief, because Jesus had no need to take on flesh to learn and “progress to godhood”. He was already God, Himself.

He was fully God and fully man. But, when He was living on earth, He lived His life just like any other human being. In this chapter (and these verses in particular), Paul is referring to the life of Jesus when He was living on earth. At that time, He was fully subject and obedient to the Father’s will, so His power as God was not fully available for Him to use except when His Father allowed it. So, He had to learn the things that every other human being learns as they grow up.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Right, and the doctrine of the virgin birth includes not only the actual birth of Jesus Christ, but also the virginal conception of Jesus Christ for, so I am not sure what the issue is here.

The “issue” is, LDS teaching distinguishes the two. Stating that Mary was a virgin at conception, sometimes clarifying by stating this means “unmarried”.

LDS teachings on the Virgin birth aren’t so clear, having changed over time, depending on which leader is teaching, and in what period of time.

Our lost ParkerD claimed something of divine artificial insemination, in order to get around Brigham Young’s “musings”.

You, personally may believe something different, or something the same. Either way, it doesn’t align to the Catholic doctrine of the Virgin birth.

 

[Telstar]

You don’t need to take my word for it, nor was I claiming or implying that Augustine was infallible. It was stated that Jesus did not break the gates of hades, and I provided one link (out of many) that shows that this is a common belief. I provided a link to the Summa Theologica, which quotes Augustine as saying just that, so there is nothing “cherry-picked” about it.

If you’re going to refer to something quoted from Saint Augustine in the Summa, please post the full paragraph and section you’re referring to, so we can all read it for ourselves. I’m guessing that seeing the full context would help us all, immensely.

I’m not asking you to accept anything. The purpose is to correctly portray the teachings and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I’m not concerned with whether someone accepts them or doesn’t (nor am I concerned with accepting Catholic/Orthodox/Lutheran/Anglican/Baptist/Muslim/etc teaching, besides accurate portrayal of their own teaching).

Your purpose seems more to be to somehow imply that LDS teachings are “the same as” or “similar to” Catholic teachings, which is completely erroneous.

Latter-day Saints believe that the apostasy and restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ was predicted by ancient Biblical prophets. We believe that the apostasy of the Lord’s Church was not a failing on His part, since He is perfect, but a failing on the part of humans, who are not perfect, and are allowed to freely choose, and God will not force them to do something they do not want to do. We see this principle throughout the Bible, throughout salvation history. The people reject the Lord’s servants, God withholds blessings/guidance from those that do not desire Him, then He calls another prophet to lead the people. However, there have always been true believers, and God guides those people, and does not withhold His guidance from them. We believe that this was true even during the apostasy of the Church of Jesus Christ, until the Lord, in His own time, decided to call a prophet and restore His Church.

The OT references that LDS always bring up are to the falling away from God by the Jews who rejected Jesus, not the falling away of the Church that Jesus established. His Church can never fail because He sustains it. He would never allow it to fail.

Again, the Bible is full of examples of apostasy and restoration throughout history. It does not mean that the gates of hades prevailed, since, for one reason among many (as already discussed), the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored by God. Further, the Church of Jesus Christ believes that God has provided a means, through ordinances in our temples, by which those that did not hear the Gospel in this life, whether in recent times, or anciently, can have that chance to accept the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the same way that Jesus Christ descended to Hades and rescued the faithful, many of whom were probably there for “hundreds” or “thousands” of years, these people also are rescued through Christ’s atonement and God’s priesthood. Latter-day Saints also believe that all people have the Light of Christ, even during times of apostasy, and those that seek after God will hear His voice.

All throughout the time of the Old Testament, the Savior had not come, yet. The Jews were constantly abandoning God, being punished, and returning to His favor through the guidance of the Prophets. After Jesus came into the world, there was no longer any need for more new prophets, because He was the Perfection of the Prophets. He was the Alpha and Omega of all of the Prophets. He was the Final Word that God would have to say to the world. Following His Gospel, written by those that were actual witnesses to His life, through His Church, is all that’s necessary for our salvation.

 

[twopekinguys]

The word “adieu” wasn’t around in ancient times now was it? It was however widely used at the time the book of mormon was written.

Explain that one.

hmmmm Janderich has yet to come back and address what was said in response to his/her posts. Even though they have been online since.

 

[maltmom]

Of course that is what I was talking about (it would be illogical to state that Mary was a virgin at her conception).

I think it is safe to say that everyone is a virgin at their own conception.

 

[sallybutler]

:bowdown2:

I think it is safe to say that everyone is a virgin at their own conception.

:bowdown2:

 

[Janderich]

hmmmm Janderich has yet to come back and address what was said in response to his/her posts. Even though they have been online since.

LivingWaters already answered your comment here. I saw no need to re-state what has already been well said.

 

[wes144]

As far as the Book of Mormon being a good book, it is not. It claims to be something it is not, there have been 10,000 changes since the original 1830 version of which I have a photo reprinted copy verified by the Salt Lake Mormon Church as authentic.

It disagrees with the Bible, itself, Joseph Smith, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants and the main tenants of Mormonism.

I have had several Mormons tell me that Satan told the truth to Eve in the Garden so they could have children, etc. I said, “God speaks and it is done.” Psalm 33: 6, 9 He already gave the command to procreate before the Fall. His Biddings are enablings. The animals, and fish didn’t disobey God to obey him! Jesus said, the devil is a liar from the beginning, there is NO truth in him. John 8:44.

Wonderful Mormon people for the most part, but Mormonism is trickle down demonomics.

Their plan of salvation came from the devil that they say is Jesus’ brother!

The Masonic Temple oath and information is the basis for the Mormon temple plan and oath. They are nearly identical.

It looks like we have the choice of a Mormon CEO with vast business experience that we need.or a lying Muslim CO (community organizer) with no business experience other than Chicago style thuggery with strong overtones of Socialism and Communism. I am voting for the Mormon.

 

[1voice]

You don’t need to take my word for it, nor was I claiming or implying that Augustine was infallible. It was stated that Jesus did not break the gates of hades, and I provided one link (out of many) that shows that this is a common belief. I provided a link to the Summa Theologica, which quotes Augustine as saying just that, so there is nothing “cherry-picked” about it.

I’m not asking you to accept anything. The purpose is to correctly portray the teachings and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I’m not concerned with whether someone accepts them or doesn’t (nor am I concerned with accepting Catholic/Orthodox/Lutheran/Anglican/Baptist/Muslim/etc teaching, besides accurate portrayal of their own teaching).

Latter-day Saints believe that the apostasy and restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ was predicted by ancient Biblical prophets. We believe that the apostasy of the Lord’s Church was not a failing on His part, since He is perfect, but a failing on the part of humans, who are not perfect, and are allowed to freely choose, and God will not force them to do something they do not want to do. We see this principle throughout the Bible, throughout salvation history. The people reject the Lord’s servants, God withholds blessings/guidance from those that do not desire Him, then He calls another prophet to lead the people. However, there have always been true believers, and God guides those people, and does not withhold His guidance from them. We believe that this was true even during the apostasy of the Church of Jesus Christ, until the Lord, in His own time, decided to call a prophet and restore His Church.

Again, the Bible is full of examples of apostasy and restoration throughout history. It does not mean that the gates of hades prevailed, since, for one reason among many (as already discussed), the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored by God. Further, the Church of Jesus Christ believes that God has provided a means, through ordinances in our temples, by which those that did not hear the Gospel in this life, whether in recent times, or anciently, can have that chance to accept the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the same way that Jesus Christ descended to Hades and rescued the faithful, many of whom were probably there for “hundreds” or “thousands” of years, these people also are rescued through Christ’s atonement and God’s priesthood. Latter-day Saints also believe that all people have the Light of Christ, even during times of apostasy, and those that seek after God will hear His voice.

The foundation of all that you say here… and all that the Mormon faith holds to be true is in the (transcribed/translated/revealed) writings produced through Joseph Smith.
Joseph Smith stated in the 8th Article of Faith, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.”
Mormons hold that standard for the Bible … Yet they do not hold that same standard for the writing produced through Joseph Smith.

 

[LivingWaters7]

The “issue” is, LDS teaching distinguishes the two. Stating that Mary was a virgin at conception, sometimes clarifying by stating this means “unmarried”.

I would be interested in seeing this clarification, I’m not familiar with it.

LDS teachings on the Virgin birth aren’t so clear, having changed over time, depending on which leader is teaching, and in what period of time.

Our lost ParkerD claimed something of divine artificial insemination, in order to get around Brigham Young’s “musings”.

You, personally may believe something different, or something the same. Either way, it doesn’t align to the Catholic doctrine of the Virgin birth.

I’m not really concerned with aligning with Catholic doctrine. What I am concerned with is the accurate portrayal of Latter–day Saint belief. Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was a virgin during conception of Jesus Christ, as well as in the birth of Jesus Christ. We do not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Prophets and Apostles in the restored Church of Jesus Christ have emphasized the literal Sonship of Christ, meaning that He is the actual Son of the Father.

As far as “divine artificial insemination”, I think the point is that Jesus Christ’s humanity obviously means that He had/has 46 chromosomes, and is XY. We know that Mary is His mother, however obviously she did not contribute all of her genetic identity to Him, since the Y sex-determining chromosome must come from a male (since females are XX). So, where did it come from? Maybe God the Father created it within Mary at conception. That is all speculative (though interesting, and I notice that there are a few threads on the matter right on this forum). But the point is that Christ is the divine Son of the Father, and was born of the virgin Mary.

Links that help to further understand how Latter-day Saints view this issue:

fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Did_God_have_Sex_with_Mary.pdf
en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Conception

 

[LivingWaters7]

If you’re going to refer to something quoted from Saint Augustine in the Summa, please post the full paragraph and section you’re referring to, so we can all read it for ourselves. I’m guessing that seeing the full context would help us all, immensely.

I am not sure if you read my original posting, however it included a direct quote to the section of the Summa Theologica, which, again, I post here. It quite clearly states “Augustine says in the sermon on the Passion already quoted that when Christ descended into hell “He broke down the gate and ‘iron bars’ of hell, setting at liberty all the righteous who were held fast through original sin.”” This is quite a common belief held by many types of Christians.

Your purpose seems more to be to somehow imply that LDS teachings are “the same as” or “similar to” Catholic teachings, which is completely erroneous.

Hardly, and I know that my posts do not demonstrate that. I am quite happy to believe in the various unique Latter-day Saint practices and beliefs, and firmly believe in the Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Lord’s Church. While I certainly don’t buy the caricatures and misrepresentations given by many critics of the Church of Jesus Christ, I certainly accept and discuss our unique doctrines and practices that I love, and certainly don’t want the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be considered as believing “the same” thing as other churches when there are obvious differences.

The OT references that LDS always bring up are to the falling away from God by the Jews who rejected Jesus, not the falling away of the Church that Jesus established. His Church can never fail because He sustains it. He would never allow it to fail.

Again, Latter-day Saints believe that God allows free will choice, and to say that He would never allow the Church to fail seems to imply that God would force people to accept Him (please correct me if I’m wrong). Latter-day Saints believe that God allows people to choose, and, as evidenced in the Fall and throughout Biblical history, He always has a plan for our human failings, in His mercy and love for us, as well as in His omniscience. Jesus Christ is at the Head of His Church always, however we are also members of His body. The Church being taken off the earth for a period of time does not mean that Jesus Christ failed (and this applies to other instances in the Bible of human failings, sins, etc), but instead points to the fallibility and failings of humans, and the restoration of Christ’s Church points to God’s infinite love and mercy for us.

All throughout the time of the Old Testament, the Savior had not come, yet. The Jews were constantly abandoning God, being punished, and returning to His favor through the guidance of the Prophets. After Jesus came into the world, there was no longer any need for more new prophets, because He was the Perfection of the Prophets. He was the Alpha and Omega of all of the Prophets. He was the Final Word that God would have to say to the world. Following His Gospel, written by those that were actual witnesses to His life, through His Church, is all that’s necessary for our salvation.

The Bible is clear that there were prophets after Jesus Christ, including Christ sending prophets Himself. Latter-day Saints believe that God has always called prophets, including before Jesus Christ’s ministry, during (some sent by Christ), and after.

 

[TexanKnight]

I would be interested in seeing this clarification, I’m not familiar with it.

I’m not really concerned with aligning with Catholic doctrine. What I am concerned with is the accurate portrayal of Latter–day Saint belief. Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was a virgin during conception of Jesus Christ, as well as in the birth of Jesus Christ.

You keep dodging me, but I ain’t going away. YOUR prophet taught that your Exalted Man-God had actual sexual relations with Mary. Therefore, she could NOT have been a Virgin

 

[batman1973]

“I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the only-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person.”-Brigham Young(Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 238)

Kind of cut and dry. Brigham said it. He was a “prophet” when he said it. And that, kids, is not what Christians believe.Try this: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”(Luke 1:35 KJV)

Again, Please, Janderich, LivingWaters7, stop being dishonest.

 

[hosemonkey]

“I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the only-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person.”-Brigham Young(Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 238)

Kind of cut and dry. Brigham said it. He was a “prophet” when he said it. And that, kids, is not what Christians believe.Try this: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”(Luke 1:35 KJV)

It seems that it is genetic among mormons.

 

[Telstar]

I am not sure if you read my original posting, however it included a direct quote to the section of the Summa Theologica, which, again, I post here. It quite clearly states “Augustine says in the sermon on the Passion already quoted that when Christ descended into hell “He broke down the gate and ‘iron bars’ of hell, setting at liberty all the righteous who were held fast through original sin.”” This is quite a common belief held by many types of Christians.

I quoted your post and responded to it in detail, so it’s fairly obvious that I read it. But, the section of the Summa in the link is a very long and detailed one that contains many different subsections. Trying to pick out the correct one to read is difficult without reading the entire page. It’s not that I don’t want to read it, but for the sake of brevity in trying to find your specific reference it would be nice if you just posted it, because it’s very time consuming, otherwise. Besides, you’re the one making the point, so you should be able to provide the section you’re referring to so anyone can read it, here. You don’t seem to have any problems quoting LDS writings or the Bible if they make your point. It’s just easier for you to copy/paste than it is for everyone else to spend time reading an entire article for the sake of a few short lines. Not everyone has that kind of free time.

As far as Jesus breaking down of the gates for the righteous to be freed, I have a feeling Augustine was referring to the place called the “Bosom of Abraham”, which is completely different than hell. Many Catholics refer to it as “Limbo”. It’s a lower place of pleasure, free of any suffering except that of still being separated from God. That was where the righteous remained who did not deserve to be punished, but could not enter Heaven until the Messiah opened the gates. There is also Purgatory, where the remains of our sins are burned away. Jesus also would have gone there to comfort those who still had sins to be purged. But, the gates of hell, where the damned go for all eternity, are still very much intact and sealed, guarded by angels, with no chance of anyone ever getting out. No one was ever freed from hell.

Again, Latter-day Saints believe that God allows free will choice, and to say that He would never allow the Church to fail seems to imply that God would force people to accept Him (please correct me if I’m wrong). Latter-day Saints believe that God allows people to choose, and, as evidenced in the Fall and throughout Biblical history, He always has a plan for our human failings, in His mercy and love for us, as well as in His omniscience. Jesus Christ is at the Head of His Church always, however we are also members of His body. The Church being taken off the earth for a period of time does not mean that Jesus Christ failed (and this applies to other instances in the Bible of human failings, sins, etc), but instead points to the fallibility and failings of humans, and the restoration of Christ’s Church points to God’s infinite love and mercy for us.

It has nothing to do with free will, or man’s failings. Jesus promised that He would remain with His Church (His Body) until the end. Believing that He didn’t keep that promise is to believe that Jesus was incapable of choosing His Apostles wisely, and that the Holy Spirit failed to carry out His mission to guide the Church to all truth. Both of those things are impossible for God to fail to accomplish and show a lack of faith in the power of God. It also would imply that Jesus died twice. Once on the cross, and the second time when His Church “failed”.

The Bible is clear that there were prophets after Jesus Christ, including Christ sending prophets Himself. Latter-day Saints believe that God has always called prophets, including before Jesus Christ’s ministry, during (some sent by Christ), and after.

There is always prophecy in the Church, but there is no need for what the Jews referred to as “prophets” to be in charge of the people. Jesus changed it. The basic structure of the Church was laid out to the Apostles by Jesus. He left it up to them to make decisions about how authority was to be set up within the Church. Jesus built the foundation on Peter and the Apostles. They knew what He wanted them to do. The Holy Spirit always guided them in all of their decisions, and still does to this day. Contrary to LDS belief, that has never changed and never will until Jesus returns to judge the whole world.