Mormons; and their **THREE** Gods....

[ThurifAcolyte]

ThuriferAcolyte,
I appreciate your candid response. It does not appear to me that the paragraph quoted by Nancy from Tertullian used the word “oiconomia” as synonymous with “economy”, and if it had I see no mystery about the concept that God has a “management plan” meaning basically the plan of salvation. The use of the word “mystery” was unneccessary in that context, unless that word was being used to draw some other meaning.

I think that if you read the article I attached, you would see exactly what Tertullian meant. As I believe nancy posted (perhaps in the other thread), “oikonomia” is variously translated as “administration”, “dispensation”, “stewardship”, “fellowship”, etc.

His quote is directly related to Ephesians 3, which specifically discusses the “fellowship/administration/dispensation (oikonomia) of the mystery” (depending on the translation), in verse 9. In both cases, the “mystery of the economy” refers to the inner workings or relationships of/in the Godhead/Trinity, specifically related to the Father and the Son, which is further discussed after verse 9 in Eph 3.

I have two fairly simple questions for you as follow-up:

1. If you would care to describe in your own words, the description of God the Father. If you use the word “Spirit”, then describe if you will what is meant by that word, based on your personal understanding.

Yes, God the Father, the creator of the world, is a divine spirit. A spirit is a personal entity, that we cannot perceive through the normal senses, and is not something that the Father has, but it is what He is. Spirit is nonphysical, so we cannot “see” it. Catholics believe that in Heaven, we will be able to perceive the Father in a way that is not possible at this time, and this event is called the “beatific vision”. The Father is the “source” of all things in existence, including within the eternal relationships in the Trinity. The Son is begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (through the Son). The Father can manifest Himself in any way He chooses, including as a man, or through a burning bush, etc.

1. Please explain why many Catholics seem to be upset by the idea of anyone saying they are seeking to become “like Christ” whom they believe to be God the Son, yet John wrote in 1 John 3:
   1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
   2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
   3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Do they think John did not know what he was talking about, or didn’t know how to explain himself well?

I don’t think that any Catholics are upset at the idea of becoming like Christ. As Stephen asked, the important question here is what does that mean. Of course John knew “what he was talking about”. The issue here is what that means, because no Catholic gets upset when “anyone” says this, since we say this frequently.

 

[ParkerD]

How would the Mormon Church define/describe “like Christ?”

Stephen,
“Like” means “with like qualities.” That would mean being perfect just as He is perfect, inheriting a throne just as He inherited His rightful throne. It would mean having the kind of faith He has, the kind of love He has, the kind of knowledge He has, and being One with the Father as He is.

 

[Zundrah]

Stephen,
“Like” means “with like qualities.” That would mean being perfect just as He is perfect, inheriting a throne just as He inherited His rightful throne. It would mean having the kind of faith He has, the kind of love He has, the kind of knowledge He has, and being One with the Father as He is.

Parker, is it still possible to gain all of this (from a mormons perspective) even if you have already defiled yourself by terrible sins, ect?

 

[ParkerD]

ThuriferAcolyte,
I haven’t much time today, so I’m going to note a brief response.

As I read Ephesians 6 and other uses of the word “mystery” by Paul, I think he usually means “hidden wisdom” or “manifold wisdom of God”. “Fellowship of the mystery” would be tied to “an understanding of the unsearchable riches of Christ” that the followers of Christ can receive collectively and individually.

I appreciate your description of “Spirit” as a “personal entity”. Would you care to describe that further? (For example, to me it could mean a Being with a definable, tangible presence.)

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, is it still possible to gain all of this (from a mormons perspective) even if you have already defiled yourself by terrible sins, ect?

Hi, Jennifer,
I hope you are well.
David lost the opportunity to receive that kind of inheritance, because of pre-meditated conspiracy to have Uriah killed even though he knew the law of God in the matter.
The woman who was told by the Savior to “go, and sin no more” could receive forgiveness for her sins as she stayed repentant and became converted to a “new birth” and a new way of life with the Holy Spirit guiding her.

So in answer to your question, there are two kinds of sins that result in loss of that opportunity to become “like Christ”, and those are to sin against the full knowledge of Christ that is communicated by the Holy Spirit (thus openly rebelling against God), and to sin in a way other than self-defense or defense of others or defense of rights and liberties, that is known to be the pre-meditated taking of a human life when the person absolutely knows that what they are doing violates God’s law.

Other sins can be completely forgiven, including the one I mentioned about the woman. The important thing is the change of heart that is required. Mercy is offered because of Christ’s atonement, but is conditioned on the person really having their heart changed so that they “go, and sin no more” and enter the path toward progress that Christ offers to all.

 

[Stephen168]

Stephen,
“Like” means “with like qualities.” That would mean being perfect just as He is perfect, inheriting a throne just as He inherited His rightful throne. It would mean having the kind of faith He has, the kind of love He has, the kind of knowledge He has, and being One with the Father as He is.

If what you described is the Mormon definition of being “like Christ”. It is very sinful. The tenth commandment specifically, with a little pride thrown in. But more on topic; what do you mean by Christ being one with the Father?

 

[Zundrah]

Hi, Jennifer,
I hope you are well.
David lost the opportunity to receive that kind of inheritance, because of pre-meditated conspiracy to have Uriah killed even though he knew the law of God in the matter.
The woman who was told by the Savior to “go, and sin no more” could receive forgiveness for her sins as she stayed repentant and became converted to a “new birth” and a new way of life with the Holy Spirit guiding her.

So in answer to your question, there are two kinds of sins that result in loss of that opportunity to become “like Christ”, and those are to sin against the full knowledge of Christ that is communicated by the Holy Spirit (thus openly rebelling against God), and to sin in a way other than self-defense or defense of others or defense of rights and liberties, that is known to be the pre-meditated taking of a human life when the person absolutely knows that what they are doing violates God’s law.

Other sins can be completely forgiven, including the one I mentioned about the woman. The important thing is the change of heart that is required. Mercy is offered because of Christ’s atonement, but is conditioned on the person really having their heart changed so that they “go, and sin no more” and enter the path toward progress that Christ offers to all.

Thank you for your response ParkerD;
But some times I feel that God is constantly punishing me for something I’ve done. It makes me feel that I will never be right with him.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

ThuriferAcolyte,
I haven’t much time today, so I’m going to note a brief response.

As I read Ephesians 6 and other uses of the word “mystery” by Paul, I think he usually means “hidden wisdom” or “manifold wisdom of God”. “Fellowship of the mystery” would be tied to “an understanding of the unsearchable riches of Christ” that the followers of Christ can receive collectively and individually.

I agree with this, and I think that this is directly related to what Tertullian was also speaking on, specifically the unsearchable riches of Christ and Christ’s relationship with the Father (further discussed in Ephesians 3). And yes, though Tertullian does not speak of oikonomia in the sense of our relationship to Christ, this is also discussed in Ephesians 1, where we read about the “dispensation (oikonomia) of the fulness of times”, etc.

I appreciate your description of “Spirit” as a “personal entity”. Would you care to describe that further? (For example, to me it could mean a Being with a definable, tangible presence.)

I’m not sure what you mean by “tangible”, if just simply you can touch Him. I believe that we cannot interact with spirit with our normal senses. We can never behold the full essence of the Father in our current state. As we know, no man can see God and live. Therefore, in our current state, when God interacts with people physically, He will take on a form that we can comprehend. I believe I mentioned earlier, our relationship with the Father reaches a fullness in Heaven, where we directly perceive Him, in the “beatific vision”. Therefore, the Father as Spirit is a “personal entity”, He really is conscious, lives, and does “things”, is distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit, as they are their own persons, yet as spirit, we cannot touch Him.

 

[ParkerD]

If what you described is the Mormon definition of being “like Christ”. It is very sinful. The tenth commandment specifically, with a little pride thrown in. But more on topic; what do you mean by Christ being one with the Father?

Stephen,
John 17:20-26 answers far better than any words I could add or re-word.

(To love as Christ loves is to be completely unselfish, and is an antithesis of pride. But perhaps that is something foreign to your thinking.?)

 

[Stephen168]

John 17:20-26 answers far better than any words I could add or re-word.

That does not answer my question: what do YOU mean by Christ being one with the Father?

(To love as Christ loves is to be completely unselfish, and is an antithesis of pride. But perhaps that is something foreign to your thinking.?)

How very condescending of you, but I am very familiar with unselfish love; I have it for my wife and family every day. I hope it make you feel better. The opposite of pride is humility by the way.

 

[EnterCanaan]

Hi,
can I offer some verses…

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

God is the Word.
The Word is Christ. *(John 1:14)
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.
The Word is He who was in the beginning with God.
The Word is He who was with God, who was, and is the Word.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…

John 17:22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are One.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you

John 6:51:"**I am **the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; **I AM **from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “**I AM **the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:9: “**I AM **the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”

John 10:11: "**I AM **the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 11:25: Jesus said to her, **"I AM **the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

John 14:6: Jesus said to him, **"I AM **the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 15:1: **"I AM **the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

John 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that **I am **[He], you will die in your sins.” ( he is not in the original). He is communicating to them he is the same I AM that Moses met at the burning bush which commissioned him.

So the concensus from scripture is that The I AM of the Old Testament, is the same I Am of the New Testament. There are many more verses of course and more which point to the Holy ghost as well, however this is adequete.

An issue of contention is forgetting that though the Word, which is Christ, and God are the same God, Christ is distinct in the fact that He is the part of God which was under Gods wrath, and Christ, as the Lamb, was under Gods wrath, and the Lamb was slain, and then the Lamb was given life and risen from the grave, and then at that moment, the Lamb became begotten, meaning Christ as the Lamb has a beginning. His beginning was His rebirth after had been slain before the foundations of the world.

Of course for us mere mortals it is a mystery how God can be Christ and the Holy Ghost, it is a mystery how God can be killed and then resurrected. It is complete mystery that is not… i repeat … IS NOT, disclosed in the bible. And seeing how this information is not disclosed, we can be assured that it is a subject of non importance to God concerning our salvation. It is interesting and fun to speculate, however we must never explain God in a way that is contrary to the bible. We have no clue why God, as the word, as Christ, as the Lamb, (just breaking it down) can be killed before the foundations, then reborn, thereby verifing the statment in John 3:16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son.

Christ was not begotten from Mary, though she is the monther and the matrix in which Christ became flesh, however the only being capable of giving life to God and killing God, and resurrecting God, theryby giving God a new beginning as Christ, is God himself.

A complete mystery, yet still fits into our logic if we don;t try to explian the mystery of God.

I apologize if i derailed this topic, however this is an interesting topic, perhaps these verses may plant a seed.

 

[EnterCanaan]

Any Mormon’s around still. Looking for Mormon response to my previous post, Do you guys recognize the authority of the bible at all? What happens when a Christian presents you with biblical proof that contradicts the BoM, what happens then. Your response would be great because my brother is a Mormon now, which honestly I just don’t understand, but this discourse will help me understand him and why he believes better. any response would be appreciated.

 

[Kdesiel]

Any Mormon’s around still. Looking for Mormon response to my previous post, Do you guys recognize the authority of the bible at all? What happens when a Christian presents you with biblical proof that contradicts the BoM, what happens then. Your response would be great because my brother is a Mormon now, which honestly I just don’t understand, but this discourse will help me understand him and why he believes better. any response would be appreciated.

I’m not a Mormon.

“Do you guys recognize the authority of the bible at all?” - Yes the LDS church uses the KJV of the Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Convenants including the Pearl of Great Price as scripture, the Word of God divinely inspired and written by Prophets.

“What happens when a Christian presents you with biblical proof that contradicts the BoM, what happens then?” - Mostly the response you are not currently getting…NONE. Or they will deflect on another issue, moslty when pressed they will just share their testimony.

 

[ParkerD]

Any Mormon’s around still. Looking for Mormon response to my previous post, Do you guys recognize the authority of the bible at all? What happens when a Christian presents you with biblical proof that contradicts the BoM, what happens then. Your response would be great because my brother is a Mormon now, which honestly I just don’t understand, but this discourse will help me understand him and why he believes better. any response would be appreciated.

The Book of Mormon doesn’t contradict the Bible at all, nor vice versa. I’m sure your brother is comfortable with the Bible in its entirety. The LDS do use and quote from the KJV. They study the Bible, and many love it. (I can’t speak for everyone, of course.) I would say that the LDS believe the Bible more literally than any religion I have encountered.

 

[ricko]

Here are a few contradictions between the bible and the BOM.

At the tower of Babel the Lord confounded “the language of all the earth.”—Genesis 11:9
At the tower of Babel the Lord confounded the language of the earth except the language of Jared, his brothers, their friends, and their families: Ether 1:35-37

Believers in Christ “were called Christians first in Antioch.” —Acts 11:26 (This is long after Christ’s ascension into heaven.)

The book of Alma, which is claimed to have been written in 73 B.C. calls believers “Christians”: Alma 46:15

Hebrews states that Melchisedec was “without father, without mother…” —Hebrews 7:3

The book of Alma says that Melchisedec “did reign under his father.” —Alma 13:18

The Bible clearly teaches that the fall of Adam resulted in sorrow for mankind: Genesis 3:9-19; Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12

2 Nephi 2:22-25 states that Adam’s fall was necessary for mankind to have children and therefore have “joy.”

Christ’s Church and the Gospel would never completely disappear from the earth, thus having to be restored: Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 3:21; Jude 3; Hebrews 12:28. The Word of God will “never pass away”: Matthew 24:35; 1 Peter 1:24-25; Isaiah 40:8

“the great and abominable church” has “taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious…” and “…there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.” —1 Nephi 13:26, 28

 

[ParkerD]

At the tower of Babel the Lord confounded “the language of all the earth.”—Genesis 11:9

At the tower of Babel the Lord confounded the language of the earth except the language of Jared, his brothers, their friends, and their families: Ether 1:35-37

2–Believers in Christ “were called Christians first in Antioch.” —Acts 11:26 (This is long after Christ’s ascension into heaven.)

The book of Alma, which is claimed to have been written in 73 B.C. calls believers “Christians”: Alma 46:15

3–Hebrews states that Melchisedec was “without father, without mother…” —Hebrews 7:3

The book of Alma says that Melchisedec “did reign under his father.” —Alma 13:18

4–The Bible clearly teaches that the fall of Adam resulted in sorrow for mankind: Genesis 3:9-19; Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12

2 Nephi 2:22-25 states that Adam’s fall was necessary for mankind to have children and therefore have “joy.”

5–Christ’s Church and the Gospel would never completely disappear from the earth, thus having to be restored: Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 3:21; Jude 3; Hebrews 12:28. The Word of God will “never pass away”: Matthew 24:35; 1 Peter 1:24-25; Isaiah 40:8

6–“the great and abominable church” has “taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious…” and “…there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.” —1 Nephi 13:26, 28

I suppose that I am being asked indirectly to substantiate what I had written about no contradictions.

1–If “all the earth” is interpreted as “every living person on the face of the earth” then I think families and children were pretty hard pressed to carry on with daily life. I don’t think it is such a stretch to believe that families (parent and child) were allowed to have the same language as they went off into separate places on earth.

2–(Tongue in cheek) Since Catholics “own” the term Christian, then whether Alma used a word that meant the same thing should not bother Catholics at all. They have the copyright.

Alma should have known better than that believers in Christ could actually be called by a name meaning “follower of Christ” before He was born. (Oh, woops–Isaiah knew about Christ also, and believed in Christ, and loved Christ.)

3–Paul had some knowledge about Melchizedek that he didn’t get from the Old Testament we now have. He was explaining to the Jews that even though Christ was a Jew and not a Levite, Christ held the same priesthood that Melchizedek held, which priesthood is “without beginning of days, nor end of life,” because it is eternal and is “without descent”. Melchizedek was “made like unto the Son of God;” and “abideth a priest continually.” (Hebrews 7:3) Christ was the great high priest who “offered up himself” as the great and last sacrifice, infinite and eternal.

4–It seems reasonable to a great number of people that in order for someone to really understand joy, they will need to have experienced some sorrow in their life.

5–Revelation 14:7 says very plainly that another angel would come to earth with the everlasting gospel so that that gospel could go to “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people”, and this event would precede the “hour of his judgment” which makes complete sense when compared with Matthew 24 and 25.

6–That matches up with Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:7, in that the “great and abominable church” which is the power exerted by the dragon who was “wroth with the woman” and made “war with the remnant of her seed” is granted power “to overcome them.” But it is a temporary thing, and in reality accomplishes God’s purposes as John saw in the unfolding of the visions he had. It allows every single human being to make a choice about what they wish to believe in, and whether they will seek Christ who “stands at the door, and knocks” and will seek the Holy Spirit to sanctify their soul and help them really, truly become like Christ through making and keeping covenants with Him.

 

[Zundrah]

I’m not a Mormon.

Q - “What happens when a Christian presents you with biblical proof that contradicts the BoM, what happens then?”

A - Mostly the response you are not currently getting…NONE.

Or they will deflect on another issue, moslty when pressed they will just share their testimony.

Wow! You have been talking to mormons quite often, haven’t you!? This is exactly what they do! You have nailed their characteristics perfectly!

I have a mormon friend called Lydia and she does all the things that you just quoted!

Mostly the response you are currently getting…NONE.
Or they will deflect on another issue, moslty when pressed they will just share their testimony

 

[Kdesiel]

Wow! You have been talking to mormons quite often, haven’t you!? This is exactly what they do! You have nailed their characteristics perfectly!

I have a mormon friend called Lydia and she does all the things that you just quoted!

You have no idea. I was brought up in a Mormon household. I’m from a family of 10! All are LDS except me.
I served a mission, went to the temple, and had a temple marriage…now I’m Catholic!

I have discussions with my family all the time, and I’m used to the same routine. It never changes. Once it comes down to Brass tacks and Facts the response mechanism is always the same and in the same order.

Have a Great Day.

 

[Zundrah]

You have no idea. I was brought up in a Mormon household. I’m from a family of 10! All are LDS except me.
I served a mission, went to the temple, and had a temple marriage…now I’m Catholic!

I have discussions with my family all the time, and I’m used to the same routine. It never changes. Once it comes down to Brass tacks and Facts the response mechanism is always the same and in the same order.

Have a Great Day.

I am very suspicious that all mormons know that their beliefs are illogical but they still just don’t budge from it. I wonder why? Maybe it’s because they want to believe that they will become a God after death? Is that too good to stop believing in?

P.S. It’s amazing that you are still sane!

 

[why_me]

Hi,
can I offer some verses…

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

God is the Word.
The Word is Christ. *(John 1:14)
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.
The Word is He who was in the beginning with God.
The Word is He who was with God, who was, and is the Word.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…

John 17:22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are One.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you

John 6:51:"**I am **the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; **I AM **from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “**I AM **the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:9: “**I AM **the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”

John 10:11: "**I AM **the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 11:25: Jesus said to her, **"I AM **the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

John 14:6: Jesus said to him, **"I AM **the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 15:1: **"I AM **the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

John 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that **I am **[He], you will die in your sins.” ( he is not in the original). He is communicating to them he is the same I AM that Moses met at the burning bush which commissioned him.

So the concensus from scripture is that The I AM of the Old Testament, is the same I Am of the New Testament. There are many more verses of course and more which point to the Holy ghost as well, however this is adequete.

An issue of contention is forgetting that though the Word, which is Christ, and God are the same God, Christ is distinct in the fact that He is the part of God which was under Gods wrath, and Christ, as the Lamb, was under Gods wrath, and the Lamb was slain, and then the Lamb was given life and risen from the grave, and then at that moment, the Lamb became begotten, meaning Christ as the Lamb has a beginning. His beginning was His rebirth after had been slain before the foundations of the world.

Of course for us mere mortals it is a mystery how God can be Christ and the Holy Ghost, it is a mystery how God can be killed and then resurrected. It is complete mystery that is not… i repeat … IS NOT, disclosed in the bible. And seeing how this information is not disclosed, we can be assured that it is a subject of non importance to God concerning our salvation. It is interesting and fun to speculate, however we must never explain God in a way that is contrary to the bible. We have no clue why God, as the word, as Christ, as the Lamb, (just breaking it down) can be killed before the foundations, then reborn, thereby verifing the statment in John 3:16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son.

Christ was not begotten from Mary, though she is the monther and the matrix in which Christ became flesh, however the only being capable of giving life to God and killing God, and resurrecting God, theryby giving God a new beginning as Christ, is God himself.

A complete mystery, yet still fits into our logic if we don;t try to explian the mystery of God.

I apologize if i derailed this topic, however this is an interesting topic, perhaps these verses may plant a seed.

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who are the our in this verse?

scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/1