How do you draw the conclusion that because they were present at the Transfiguration they had a “special endowment of leadership among the twelve”? What does this have to do with the special role given to Peter alone as evidenced by the words Christ spoke only to Peter?Seven of them were present, including James and John who had been with Peter and the Savior on the Mount of Transfiguration, and who also thus had a special endowment of leadership among the twelve.
SteveVH,The Church is Christ’s presence on earth. We are the Body of Christ and Peter and his successors were given the role of “Shepherd”, acting in Christ’s place. Of course, we understand that Christ is the Good Shepherd. Being the Good Shepherd, Jesus certainly had the authority to hand this on to the leader of His Church. Ultimately, it is Christ, acting through His appointed leader, who is the Good Shepherd.
Who feeds sheep but a shepherd? He must lead them from pasture to pasture or they will die of starvation. Christ told Peter, three times (this is significant) to feed His sheep. To say that Christ was speaking in generalities is nothing more than denying the reality of what Christ was saying. When this is considered along with Peter’s reception of the “keys to the kingdom”, Peter’s special role is undeniable. He said these words to no one else.
How insulting of you Parker though not surprising.The Latter-day Saints consider that the events on the Mount of Transfiguration were singularly important, not just a happenstance.
Hi, RedDawg,Parker,
In light of the papacy and the role Jesus gave Peter this passage from Jeremiah has a certain meaning:
[BIBLEDRB]Jeremiah 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]
Can you explain how it doesn’t signify the papacy?
Especially in light of
[BIBLEDRB]John 21:15-17[/BIBLEDRB]
Why don’t you consider that they had a special role if you consider that the occurrence on the Mount of Transfiguration was something important (if you do, as evidently I was supposed to know that you do.)?How do you draw the conclusion that because they were present at the Transfiguration they had a “special endowment of leadership among the twelve”?
SteveVH,How do you draw the conclusion that because they were present at the Transfiguration they had a “special endowment of leadership among the twelve”? What does this have to do with the special role given to Peter alone as evidenced by the words Christ spoke only to Peter?
SteveVH,
You certainly have what you want in having shepherds to “act in Christ’s place.” As far as I’m concerned, the Old Testament passages I cited earlier to Rinnie are still very much in effect, so the concerns in Ezekiel that relate to how the shepherds lead the people are still a warning to the shepherds, and the shepherds are still overseers rather than “acting in Christ’s place” as noted in the New Testament, and Christ is always the Good Shepherd and has a direct role and a direct relationship for those who seek that relationship. He knocks at a door to our heart, but it is for us to decide whether to open that door. (revelation 3:20) He doesn’t need someone else to stand in His place, and He offers a direct, one-to-one relationship with each and every person on the earth. (He can do that, from heaven.)
So where we differ most profoundly is in the thinking that Christ handed over leadership to Peter that was “in Christ’s place”, and in the thinking that John would not be considered just as much an overseer-shepherding influence as Peter, with the keys devolving upon him after Peter had been killed.
The Latter-day Saints consider that the events on the Mount of Transfiguration were singularly important, not just a happenstance.
When I leave on a trip and turn the “keys to the office” over to a trusted employee, they are acting “in my place”. Not only the Pope and the bishops act in Christ’s place, but our priests as well. It is Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, acting in and through our priests and bishops that effects the power of the sacraments. A priest or a bishop is nothing more than a man. It is Christ working through them, becoming present in them, that makes the difference. Yes, they definitely act in Christ’s place because it is Christ who is acting.SteveVH,
You certainly have what you want in having shepherds to “act in Christ’s place.” As far as I’m concerned, the Old Testament passages I cited earlier to Rinnie are still very much in effect, so the concerns in Ezekiel that relate to how the shepherds lead the people are still a warning to the shepherds, and the shepherds are still overseers rather than “acting in Christ’s place” as noted in the New Testament, and Christ is always the Good Shepherd and has a direct role and a direct relationship for those who seek that relationship. He knocks at a door to our heart, but it is for us to decide whether to open that door. (revelation 3:20) He doesn’t need someone else to stand in His place, and He offers a direct, one-to-one relationship with each and every person on the earth. (He can do that, from heaven.)
Don’t know what to tell you, Parker. There is no evidence in the New Testament that this happened. There is much evidence that it didn’t, and that Peter was given a unique role among the Apostles. History shows that Peter handed on this authority to his successor, which was not John.So where we differ most profoundly is in the thinking that Christ handed over leadership to Peter that was “in Christ’s place”, and in the thinking that John would not be considered just as much an overseer-shepherding influence as Peter, with the keys devolving upon him after Peter had been killed.
What indication have I given that I don’t think the Transfiguration was important and that it was just happenstance? It was very important, but the focus was on the glory of Jesus Christ, not the endowment of some special authority upon those present.The Latter-day Saints consider that the events on the Mount of Transfiguration were singularly important, not just a happenstance.
Catholic-RCIA,As to you Parker, Everything seems to be a test. Very American right? To succeed in a test brings a certain pride, a feeling of accomplishment. Jesus turns this over into its true light. The Fact is no matter how much we are tested and succeed, Parker we all come up with an “F” … You really showed your true colors a few post back when you said what you said about [SteveVH as a Catholic] and the Transfiguration…
The ascension was a far different situation than the Transfiguration. The three apostles present were instructed not to speak about it at the time. It was a very sacred occasion which was reserved for them to experience and to see with the Savior.…
Do you think the ascension of Jesus into heaven should be considered important? Were those present endowed with special authority over those not present?
It is the fact that you assume that I don’t think it is important that is the issue, Parker. And I don’t deny that the three were there for a purpose, but that purpose was as witnesses to Christ’s glory. This is quite different from Jesus speaking directly to one of the apostles and commanding him to feed His sheep. That is what a shepherd does. He feeds the sheep. This is also quite different than giving the keys to the kingdom to one of the Apostles and not addressing all at the same time. They were given to Peter and try as you might you cannot get around this fact without reading in notions that just aren’t substantiated.Why don’t you consider that they had a special role if you consider that the occurrence on the Mount of Transfiguration was something important (if you do, as evidently I was supposed to know that you do.)?
Will stick to my former post.I did get it parker. It is what it is. Steve has it as well. Could not be clearer from this end.Catholic-RCIA,
Well, I certainly drew attention to the Transfiguration, as I had hoped to do. (There didn’t seem to be much of an awareness that James and John were there, so I highlighted the situation of the three apostles being there since that was the major point I was making that Peter was not the sole apostle with the instruction to “feed my sheep”.)
No one has addressed the issue of the fact that Peter, James and John were selected specifically and purposefully to go with the Savior for that occasion, as also for the private, sacred occasion of the beginning of His atonement for all mankind, during which occasion He addressed Peter but was speaking to all three.
As far as things in this life happening as a “test”, the word “if” in Revelation 3:20 is one of many places that shows that indeed there is a “test” going on in this life, whether anyone likes to look at it that way or not. The Savior didn’t offer a guarantee–the verse says “if”. It is a question–a test–of being able to “hear His voice” and know His voice and respond by actions that show a listening ear and a love for what He asks one to do. Then He says “I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
My colors are that I seek to promote the idea of following Christ, the Good Shepherd, with no one standing in the way of that and with the understanding that He is going to take a person where they probably wouldn’t want to go on their own, because it will mean making changes in their life–real repentance and real listening to His voice, by discerning His voice through having one’s heart in tune. There is no one acting “in His place.” He lives, directs, and is the sole opener and shutter of the gates of hell and of heaven through having the “key of David” upon His shoulder by means of His atoning sacrifice and His loving, redeeming mercy.
Agreed.SteveVH,
It is evident in reading the New Testament that everything the Savior did was purposeful and deliberate. When He was going to the Mount of Transfiguration, knowing full well that there was going to take place a special experience there, He selected Peter, James and John to go with Him and have the experience they were going to have.
Well, the agony in the garden was significant, but certainly not the "most significant. There was this little thing called the resurrection and there is no resurrection without the crucifixion. In fact, you cannot separate the agony on the garden from the crucifixion from the resurrection. It is one event that resulted in our redemption.In the garden of Gethsemane also, we read again (Matthew 26:36-43) about the most significant of events, the beginning of the Savior’s suffering of the pains for our sins through His atonement, and during that event He again deliberately selected Peter, James and John to come with Him to the place where He was going to pray, and asked them, “Tarry ye here, and watch with me.” When He found them asleep after a period of time that was probably an hour or more, He found them asleep, and thus asked them (directing the words to Peter but including James and John in the use of the word “ye”) “What, could ye not watch with me one hour?” “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.
Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, "God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you."
He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.” Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
A friend of mine pointed out, rightly, that Peter tried to have Salvation without the Cross. Of course, it is difficult to accept, impossible to understand, that God Saved us by suffering and death.Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."