Mormons: When did the Great Apostasy occur?

[RedDawgMCM]

You really showed your true colors a few post back when you said what you said about us as Catholics and the Transfiguration.

I was thinking more or less this same thing given the way he answered my post. Very flippant almost as if I was the only one ever to read those scripture verses and see a link to the role of Peter and the papacy. Rather than 2000 years of church history affirming and reaffirming it all.

 

[KathleenGee]

Why did Christ bring Peter, John, and James…to the Transfiguration…He had these 3 come with Him on another occasion for healing…Peter and John were the first to arrive at the empty tomb…Christ’s 3 disciples most approximate to Him…

and the Transfiguration was also to teach that suffering and glory go hand in hand.

Christ’s death on the Cross broke the power of sin. And its event is united to Christ’s rising from the dead…to give us new life. Both dying on the Cross and rising from the dead are part of Christ’s mission.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Why did Christ bring Peter, John, and James…to the Transfiguration…He had these 3 come with Him on another occasion for healing…Peter and John were the first to arrive at the empty tomb…Christ’s 3 disciples most approximate to Him…

and the Transfiguration was also to teach that suffering and glory go hand in hand.

Christ’s death on the Cross broke the power of sin. And its event is united to Christ’s rising from the dead…to give us new life. Both dying on the Cross and rising from the dead are part of Christ’s mission.

John took on another very special ministry within our Church yesterday and today. To care for Mary, while Mary cares and prays for us all. Not only given to John but to all of us as well. Motherhood, the New Eve that said yes to the Fathers will. Do I look at Peter as being more important than John? I am a Catholic. Why would I do that? Peter was a slave to Jesus just as John was, just as we are. What makes Peter so special is what makes us all special. His walk with Jesus.

A sinner just like us embraced by Divine love. A sinner who had nothing to give, empty hands, just emptiness.

When we come to Jesus in this way, He is able to fill all that is lacking in each of us. He looks us in the eye and asks “do you love me” its easy to say “yes I love you Lord” Not so easy when we don’t. (Confession) You see Peter got this message. His pride and his fears ended up having no where else to go. We all know how he died….for Jesus

 

[zaffiroborant]

You really showed your true colors a few post back when you said what you said about us as Catholics and the Transfiguration. I see this often with your words and I do recognize the tone and from where it comes. It is very familiar to me.
RedDawgMCM;7817649:

I was thinking more or less this same thing given the way he answered my post. Very flippant almost as if I was the only one ever to read those scripture verses and see a link to the role of Peter and the papacy. Rather than 2000 years of church history affirming and reaffirming it all.

If you go back through his posts you will see a history of this, we are shallow, don’t read scriptures, choose to believe what we want over what God says, we don’t rely on the Holy Spirit and so on. Make a point of reading his posts carefully and you will see it too.

 

[catholic-rcia]

We are all sinners as we all know here. Jesus loves Parker just as much as He loves you and I, we all know that here. Parker if you could just open your eyes, dig deeper you would see these things as well. Until you can see who is spinning you, you will continue to be lost in a world that in the end will not make any sense. If you knew the heart that was behind this you could give a little. Until you can give just a little you will remain stuck here defending this board that you have made your own. There is a reason and a why for all that we do. There is a reason you spend time here away from your own family…

Take a break and contemplate. Look in the mirror with a sincere star. If you’re looking for truth you have found it. You would see the one who spins us all and you will change for the better in Christ. Look up all you can find out about the transfiguration, Catholic writings on it. For me it screams out this is my Son, follow Him, listen to Him. The other two sinners at His side, those like you and I go away. It’s all about Jesus now. They helped serve and pave the way for Him, His death for you and I in order for us to have eternal life through Him.

You used the word happenstance. I told you it gave me goose bumps. 12 years ago I ran into a Mormon man who said this when he could not convert me in ten minutes. “All you Catholics,… Its all just a mystery to you, its all happenstance” Some old timers around here use that same word. Did you know this Parker?

That absolutely does not come from you Parker. Find out who and then grab on to Jesus as quickly as you can. Then you will really start to enjoy this journey with Him.

Out of love for you Parker. Read between the lines. I come here for you because I am asked, no more, no less. (Servant for Christ Jesus)

Rich
www.utahmission.com
P.S
If you ever have need for a Cross there is one I have for you. Its on Him, its His cost.
www.chooseyourcross.com

 

[ParkerD]

Parker… There is a reason and a why for all that we do. There is a reason you spend time here away from your own family…

Catholic-RCIA,

I might as well clarify that my family has understood why I have spent time on this forum. We have a very close and very happy family. We recently enjoyed a fabulous wedding of our daughter in the Salt Lake Temple to a great young man, and this week we are enjoying delightful items like track meets and musical programs and dinner dances involving our children.

As far as why I have spent time here, I have explained a few times that I happened upon the opportunity to refute some of the things that were incorrect as relates to my church and its teachings, through a Google search that had this sight as a first page selection. I also have a patriarchal blessing, from when I was a young man age fifteen, that had a sentence about proclaiming the truths of the gospel “throughout the earth”–so I have taken the opportunity to do that here. I’ve learned many helpful things while responding to questions here, so I don’t regret my time spent because it has directed me to new insights into Biblical passages and Biblical prophecies.

The Savior has such perfection in granting and preserving free will choice on the earth! It is delightful to see that and observe how He did it so masterfully.

Peace to you, Rich, and to all readers.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Parker,

Blessings to you and your family.

I just read through a comment regarding the reference to St. Catherine of Siena, my own patron saint, at William and Catherine’s wedding…questions about the similarities and differences between Catholicism and Anglicanism…it depends…

Finally, one post states that they came to the Catholic Church because it is founded on the rock and not shifting sand.

I read the Mormons’ reference to our faith being happenstance…again that reflects the great misunderstanding and difficulty in understanding historical documentation and continuity.

This morning I read an email from someone regarding how each apostle died, and their deaths reflected great profession of faith in their martyrdoms. Even St. John the Evangelist was intended to be killed by being placed in boiling oil, but he miraculously survived, the Lord spared him so he could write his letters. I cannot imagine any of them making no effort to choose successors…they chose others to be teachers…but only certain ones to become bishops, this practice based on Jewish culture rather than the Gentile administrative leadership found in council.

The person also stated that our teachings do not change, do not evolve…all was revealed in Jesus Christ through His witnesses.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Catholic-RCIA,

I might as well clarify that my family has understood why I have spent time on this forum. We have a very close and very happy family. We recently enjoyed a fabulous wedding of our daughter in the Salt Lake Temple to a great young man, and this week we are enjoying delightful items like track meets and musical programs and dinner dances involving our children.

As far as why I have spent time here, I have explained a few times that I happened upon the opportunity to refute some of the things that were incorrect as relates to my church and its teachings, through a Google search that had this sight as a first page selection. I also have a patriarchal blessing, from when I was a young man age fifteen, that had a sentence about proclaiming the truths of the gospel “throughout the earth”–so I have taken the opportunity to do that here. I’ve learned many helpful things while responding to questions here, so I don’t regret my time spent because it has directed me to new insights into Biblical passages and Biblical prophecies.

The Savior has such perfection in granting and preserving free will choice on the earth! It is delightful to see that and observe how He did it so masterfully.

Peace to you, Rich, and to all readers.

To be 100% honest with you Parker, not to hurt the Parker that is in you. Just as I posted regarding your certain themes that you have brought, I can recognize that certain kind of kiss. I am not brought back into you Parker. Yes as a Catholic I can still love even him, you as well. Its very clear from this end. You have a way when it comes to striking blows. It will not always work. Not with me.

But I still love you in Jesus, this will not change.
I mean this Parker
God bless you and your family

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

John Paul II refers to Christ as the Rock, and also to Peter…and John and the other apostles all witnessed Him. The Lord would come to us in the Gospels various times with just a few apostles.

There is a difference between being chosen by Christ to be the rock to base His Church…one person as head, not various ones. Being witness to Christ vs being called by Him to be His rock are two different roles, but both served as witnesses and promulgators of the True Gospel, the True Jesus.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Catholic-RCIA,

As far as why I have spent time here, I have explained a few times that I happened upon the opportunity to refute some of the things that were incorrect as relates to my church and its teachings,

As far as why I have spent time here, I have explained a few times that I happened upon the opportunity to refute some of the things that were incorrect as relates to my church and its teachings,

Catholic-RCIA, End of quote

I can certainly understand this. Looking at the title of this thread I can certainly understand this even more. Curious Parker… What things have been said that are not true about your faith. Because I came out of the Mormon Church and am now Catholic, very much entrenched into my faith I do like to stay out of the Confessional for at least a few months at a time. Not because I am trying to be a better person, rather a better servant for Jesus… I feel like I can be honest with those things you would say are not true about the LDS Church. So what are some that stick out in your own mind when it comes to this forum. What has been said that is wrong when it comes to your churches beliefs?

And I might ad for others here what does this have to do with this post? As to the apostasy?
As to not appear to be getting off track?

I would say it has to do with what is said that is truth and what is said that is not.

In Christ
Rich

 

[ParkerD]

Curious Parker… What things have been said that are not true about your faith. Because I came out of the Mormon Church and am now Catholic, very much entrenched into my faith I do like to stay out of the Confessional for at least a few months at a time. Not because I am trying to be a better person, rather a better servant for Jesus… I feel like I can be honest with those things you would say are not true about the LDS Church. So what are some that stick out in your own mind when it comes to this forum. What has been said that is wrong when it comes to your churches beliefs?

And I might ad for others here what does this have to do with this post? As to the apostasy?
As to not appear to be getting off track?

I would say it has to do with what is said that is truth and what is said that is not.

In Christ
Rich

Catholic-RCIA,

I had responded about the reason I post in this forum because you had seemed to think “there is a reason you spend time here” and seemed to think it was a detraction from my spending time with my family, which it isn’t since I am very much involved with all of them as I explained. It was to help you understand “why I spend time here” that I answered with that post.

I have thought from time to time about whether to direct comments about articles and so forth that attempt to describe Latter-day Saint beliefs that are on parts of this website. I feel it is best as far as trying to be non-contentious to just answer questions about specifics when those questions are either directed to me or are a general question about Latter-day Saint beliefs. So if you have a specific question about a specific article or a specific belief, then I would answer in specifics.

My desire is to uplift others and to uphold the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Light of the world, as best I can.

 

[catholic-rcia]

My desire is to uplift others and to uphold the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Light of the world, as best I can.

If I went to a Mormon Forum to up hold the truths of the 2000 year old Apostolic Catholic Church would I be accepted, loved as you have been loved here by many?
Would I be welcome?

Maybe you could suggest such a site for me Parker. Make sure it is LDS Church approved. It would be good if you could be the one to introduce me.

In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic please

 

[rinnie]

Catholic-RCIA,

Well, I certainly drew attention to the Transfiguration, as I had hoped to do. (There didn’t seem to be much of an awareness that James and John were there, so I highlighted the situation of the three apostles being there since that was the major point I was making that Peter was not the sole apostle with the instruction to “feed my sheep”.)

No one has addressed the issue of the fact that Peter, James and John were selected specifically and purposefully to go with the Savior for that occasion, as also for the private, sacred occasion of the beginning of His atonement for all mankind, during which occasion He addressed Peter but was speaking to all three.

As far as things in this life happening as a “test”, the word “if” in Revelation 3:20 is one of many places that shows that indeed there is a “test” going on in this life, whether anyone likes to look at it that way or not. The Savior didn’t offer a guarantee–the verse says “if”. It is a question–a test–of being able to “hear His voice” and know His voice and respond by actions that show a listening ear and a love for what He asks one to do. Then He says “I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

My colors are that I seek to promote the idea of following Christ, the Good Shepherd, with no one standing in the way of that and with the understanding that He is going to take a person where they probably wouldn’t want to go on their own, because it will mean making changes in their life–real repentance and real listening to His voice, by discerning His voice through having one’s heart in tune. There is no one acting “in His place.” He lives, directs, and is the sole opener and shutter of the gates of hell and of heaven through having the “key of David” upon His shoulder by means of His atoning sacrifice and His loving, redeeming mercy.

Parker what does who was with Jesus at the Transfiguration have to do with Jesus handing over the keys to Peter?

And having Peter as the leader of the RCC in no way stands in our way of listening to the voice of Christ. I do not see where the 2 tie into play.

I agree with you that when we follow Christ we must put our own lusts and wants aside and put the wants of Christ before us. We are indeed taught to Love Christ more then even ourself. But what does us putting our own personal needs and wants aside and putting Christ first as we are taught have to do with Jesus giving Peter the keys to the kingdom. And giving Peter the right to bind and loose?

 

[TheExorcist]

Parker what does who was with Jesus at the Transfiguration have to do with Jesus handing over the keys to Peter?

Because Mormons believe that’s when Peter, James and John received all the keys of the Priesthood thus becoming the church’s first First Presidency.

 

[rinnie]

Because Mormons believe that’s when Peter, James and John received all the keys of the Priesthood thus becoming the church’s first First Presidency.

But why would they even think that when there is clear scripture when and where the keys of the kingdom were given? I mean I could see if we did not have a plain and clear scripture of to whom and when the keys were given but we do.

Christ told it to Peter just after Peter revealed what was revealed to him by God himself. That is what I do not understand. How could they get that mixed up.

 

[rinnie]

We do need to stay on topic which we seem to be getting off track all of of the time.

But what the Transfiguration is and was has nothing to do with this great apostosy that is yet to be explained.

What the Transfiguration was simply Christ being revealed that he was true God this is Pure Light. Peter being give the keys to the kingdom have nothing to do with this great Apostosy that was told to have happened.

I have asked many times and will ask again how can we believe the words of Christ that the Holy Spirit will lead his Church until the end of time, but then say that the Holy Spirit has failed to lead his church until the end of time. You have to accept one or the other. Both words can be wrong.

So Christ said it would NOT happen. How could I possibly go against his words? If I believe the words of Joseph Smith would that not be putting him above Christ?

 

[rinnie]

Because Mormons believe that’s when Peter, James and John received all the keys of the Priesthood thus becoming the church’s first First Presidency.

So then when he said you are Peter and to YOU I GIVE the keys to the kingdom. what do we do with these words of Christ and how does they fit into the Church failing?

 

[SteveVH]

We do need to stay on topic which we seem to be getting off track all of of the time.

But what the Transfiguration is and was has nothing to do with this great apostosy that is yet to be explained.

What the Transfiguration was simply Christ being revealed that he was true God this is Pure Light. Peter being give the keys to the kingdom have nothing to do with this great Apostosy that was told to have happened.

I have asked many times and will ask again how can we believe the words of Christ that the Holy Spirit will lead his Church until the end of time, but then say that the Holy Spirit has failed to lead his church until the end of time. You have to accept one or the other. Both words can be wrong.

So Christ said it would NOT happen. How could I possibly go against his words? If I believe the words of Joseph Smith would that not be putting him above Christ?

It is a matter of going to all lengths to prove their case, regardless of the plain meaning of the words we read in the scriptures. Neither the Transfiguration nor the agony in the garden have anything to do with the authority given to Peter. These are nothing more than distractions and grasping at straws in an attempt to show that Peter was not unique in the authority given.

 

[rinnie]

It is a matter of going to all lengths to prove their case, regardless of the plain meaning of the words we read in the scriptures. Neither the Transfiguration nor the agony in the garden have anything to do with the authority given to Peter. These are nothing more than distractions and grasping at straws in an attempt to show that Peter was not unique in the authority given.

And see that is the big problem. If what is being said is the truth it would be shown to us. It would be clear to us. God said he would never leave us Orphans.

To leave the Church that is promised to us is leaving us Orphans. Is saying the Holy Spirit that Christ sent to us in his Spirit was nothing but a lie.

But then to turn it around we HAVE the word of God telling us to stay away from false prophets that tell us these things. We have the warning from God that they would indeed come and try to turn us away from the Holy Spirit that is leading his Church.

How can this be ignored? I just cannot understand it. Do they not see when they are saying that the Church failed they are saying the Holy Spirit failed. How can it honestly be seen any other way?