Mormons: When did the Great Apostasy occur?

[Stephen168]

Mormons believe they have the keys and priesthood authority to make changes. They have made changes as extreme as change ‘who God is’ and ‘what is required for salvation.’ It took Joseph Smith five years to get around inventing Mormon Apostles, yet he had claimed for those years he had the keys and authority. So reason would tell us that the Mormon claim that doctrine changing in the early church is an indication of apostasy is not true; Mormons have changed doctrine. Mormons claiming that only an Apostle can have authority is not true; they claimed authority without apostles. All you really need is ‘authority’ and you can do whatever you want. So out of nowhere Joseph Smith took the restorationist idea of a great apostasy and claimed he had authority.

The problem with this claim of an apostasy is Mormons don’t think about what it would really take for their own church to lose priesthood authority.

 

[rinnie]

Mormons believe they have the keys and priesthood authority to make changes. They have made changes as extreme as change ‘who God is’ and ‘what is required for salvation.’ It took Joseph Smith five years to get around inventing Mormon Apostles, yet he had claimed for those years he had the keys and authority. So reason would tell us that the Mormon claim that doctrine changing in the early church is an indication of apostasy is not true; Mormons have changed doctrine. Mormons claiming that only an Apostle can have authority is not true; they claimed authority without apostles. All you really need is ‘authority’ and you can do whatever you want. So out of nowhere Joseph Smith took the restorationist idea of a great apostasy and claimed he had authority.

The problem with this claim of an apostasy is Mormons don’t think about what it would really take for their own church to lose priesthood authority.

But here is my problem with that. Lets say they are right okay, then why does the word of God not prepare us for that.

The word of God says that Peter has the keys to the Kingdom not the mormons, and the simple proof would be time. Everything since the time of Jesus can be traced. And Apostolic succession is the main part.

If the Church would have ended so would the Bishops and The Pope. But as history can show us there is not one Year that we cannot show a Priest or Bishop or Pope of the CC.

I mean God gave us 2 things for sure. Reason and History. Reason means you have a mind to understand and figure something out, and History leaves you data to show it. We have both.

Now if the CC says that we would never be left orphans and the Pope and Bishops would continue until the end of age, and History can show it is still that way. How can they reason that it ended when History shows otherwise. Thats what I cannot see.

Now I could understand if there was a time that the CC ceased to exist, and then picked back up. But it never happened, see what I am saying. Where is the Reason here when History has been proven?

 

[GaryTaylor]

No. I am not commenting on free will. I am saying that I believe knowledge of good and evil is a predicate to sin. If Eve did not have knowledge of good and evil before partaking of the fruit of the tree giving knowledge of good and evil, how would she be able to sin before partaking of the fruit?

Or maybe you disagree with me, and believe that one can sin without having knowledge of good and evil. Is that the issue?

The Commandment was to not eat the fruit or they would die. They ate the fruit. As a result of the eaten fruit they then knew Good and Evil. And sin come upon the world. So we have the horse before the cart so to speak above.

So obviously you agree there was no Sin before they disobeyed, So what don’t you agree with in regard to “Original Sin”?

We can’t assume what was a known either. Temptation was a known, or they wouldn’t have been able to have been tempted? If they couldn’t have been tempted they couldn’t be responsible to do wrong. Adam and Eve also had feelings, why would Eve comment on how pleasant it was to the eyes, and a tree to be desired? So the feeling of desire/beauty is now in play also. Here my thinking is Free-Will in regards. Maybe you have some other insight you would like to share? But there’s no “sin” till after the fruit is after.

Interesting though, I never heard the Morman concept clearly explained. How did it go in your opinion. People don’t sin till the have a conscious mind in the world, what 5-years old? They are considered innocent. Which wouldn’t be no different than Christian understanding. Wouldn’t that contrast Adam and Eve, from my point here though?

Maybe I’m not seeing something?

GT

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I understand that you do not agree with this, but I did get a chuckle that they believe that God gave them a command and then wanted them to do this opposite.

I do understand what you are saying it just still makes me laugh a little:blush: It is just how they would come to such a unbelievable conclusion. I mean if they are right and God WANTED them to do this he would not have punished them. See what I am saying?

God would never punish any of us for a sin that we did not realize we committed. In the bible Adam and Eve were quite clear on what God told them. It isn’t like he didn’t warn them. He even told them what the conquences would be. Sorry again for getting a chuckle out of it, but you know how some thing stirke you funny at the moment.

But again its not at you, I appreciate you sharing the belief with me. Its just such a stretch to believe that is a teaching is all.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. We’re on the same page.

 

[ParkerD]

Okay Parker I will try to finish quick. Here we go.

1–Baptism John 3:5
2–Confirmation Acts 19:5-6 and Acts 8:14-17
3–Eucharist. Mt 26:26-29 Jn:6:53-58
4–Penance Jn 20:22-23 Jas 5:16
5–Anointing of the Sick Jas 5:14-15 Mk. 6:13
6–Holy Orders 1 Tim.3
7–Matrimony. Gen. 1:27 Gen 2:24

That is every single sacrament that is in the CC that you said cannot be found in the bible. I found them

Hi, Rinnie,

Quick response:

First, what I had written was not found in the Bible were the words you said Jesus said about the church, not whether there existed those items you have called the “sacraments”.

1–Latter-day Saints also have that as essential for those beginning age eight.
2–Also essential.
3–Communion is certainly an essential ordinance and a renewal of covenants.
4–Latter-day Saints have living apostles who decide on membership worthiness, just as described in John 20:23, and believe in confessing faults and sins to one another just as James described in James 5:16 during repentance which is essential to do for worthiness and forgiveness.
5–Latter-day Saints have the anointing of the sick using consecrated olive oil.
6–Not sure the complete reference, but Latter-day Saints have bishops who serve without pay and are called by revelation and it is a holy calling.
7–Latter-day Saints have an eternal marriage covenant made in the temple and sealed by one having the authority to bind in heaven, subject to the worthiness and continued faithfulness of the couple.

 

[ParkerD]

Now what Covenant do you have that is found in the Bible do we not have? And also where did Jesus give all of the Apostles the keys to the kingdom.

DId did he not say YOU are Peter and unto YOU I give the keys to the kingdom. Now come on Parker all of the Apostles are not named Peter do you not agree?

Rinnie,

For item two, one would look at Matthew 18:18 and note that all the apostles were given the authority to bind and loose. It is certainly true that Peter was given the keys to that authority, so there was a difference in that he was the presiding authority but it is clear that the others could continue with the keys if and when he died.

For item one, we have the covenant of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to their fathers (Malachi 4:6), presided over by Elijah the prophet.

We also have the covenant of tithing. (Malachi 3:10)

We also have the Abrahamic covenant that through his seed all the nations of the earth are being blessed. (Genesis 22:18)

We also have the covenant described in Ezekiel 37:18, 21, 22, 23, 26 and 27.

Thanks for asking, and have a great evening.

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,

Quick response:

First, what I had written was not found in the Bible were the words you said Jesus said about the church, not whether there existed those items you have called the “sacraments”.

1–Latter-day Saints also have that as essential for those beginning age eight.
2–Also essential.
3–Communion is certainly an essential ordinance and a renewal of covenants.
4–Latter-day Saints have living apostles who decide on membership worthiness, just as described in John 20:23, and believe in confessing faults and sins to one another just as James described in James 5:16 during repentance which is essential to do for worthiness and forgiveness.
5–Latter-day Saints have the anointing of the sick using consecrated olive oil.
6–Not sure the complete reference, but Latter-day Saints have bishops who serve without pay and are called by revelation and it is a holy calling.
7–Latter-day Saints have an eternal marriage covenant made in the temple and sealed by one having the authority to bind in heaven, subject to the worthiness and continued faithfulness of the couple.

Oh You mean the Church being the Pillar of all truth. Sorry here it is

1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you know how to behave in the household of God, which is the CHURCH the LIVING GOD, the pillar and foundation of Truth.

That is why we say that the Church is the living God because it is led by the Holy Spirit. It continues to teach us until the end of age. If the CHurch were not the living God the scripture would not tell us so.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

For item two, one would look at Matthew 18:18 and note that all the apostles were given the authority to bind and loose. It is certainly true that Peter was given the keys to that authority, so there was a difference in that he was the presiding authority but it is clear that the others could continue with the keys if and when he died.

For item one, we have the covenant of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to their fathers (Malachi 4:6), presided over by Elijah the prophet.

We also have the covenant of tithing. (Malachi 3:10)

We also have the Abrahamic covenant that through his seed all the nations of the earth are being blessed. (Genesis 22:18)

We also have the covenant described in Ezekiel 37:18, 21, 22, 23, 26 and 27.

Thanks for asking, and have a great evening.

Not really Parker. Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the kingdom. Jesus gives the keys before he dies because he is leaving the kingdom Christ came to rule on earth.

THis ties into Iss 22:15 Key of David The keys to the kingdom of earth, throne to his Fathers house. OPEN and SHUT, bind and loose.

The Prime minister rules the House until the King returns. So the Pope is the Prime Minister and rules the House until the king returns. The Apostles knew what the keys to the kingdom meant.

The bind and loose meant to open and shut.
Yes all of the Apostles have the right to bind a loose sin. But that scirpture is not the same bind and loose. I will place the KEY of the house of David on HIS shoulder. when HE OPENS no one shall SHUT when HE shuts no one shall Open. That is quite plain that the Pope has the authority from God to guard the Church. What the Pope opens on earth is Open in heaven, and what he closes on earth is closed in heaven. As scripture shows you I will fix HIM like a Peg in a SURE SPOT to be a PLACE OF HONOR for his family. IT ties completely into the O.T.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Rinnie,

For item two, one would look at Matthew 18:18 and note that all the apostles were given the authority to bind and loose. It is certainly true that Peter was given the keys to that authority, so there was a difference in that he was the presiding authority but it is clear that the others could continue with the keys if and when he died.

For item one, we have the covenant of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to their fathers (Malachi 4:6), presided over by Elijah the prophet.

We also have the covenant of tithing. (Malachi 3:10)

We also have the Abrahamic covenant that through his seed all the nations of the earth are being blessed. (Genesis 22:18)

We also have the covenant described in Ezekiel 37:18, 21, 22, 23, 26 and 27.

Thanks for asking, and have a great evening.

This is the teaching of the CC. We acknowledge the symbolic action of the joining of 2 sticks that signify the future union of Judah and Israel under the Messianic King. That is Jesus Christ. We accept him he is the whole being of our faith.

Christ fulfilled this Covenant Parker:shrug:

 

[rinnie]

Now Malachi 3:10 I agree we do not go by the Mosiac law we go by the N.T.

That is the Old Law Parker. CHrist says in the N.T that we are to give as we are able.

Heb. 13:6
Luke 5:38
2 cor 9:6-8
Gal 6:8

DId Christ no condemn that and say that it was wrong to be forced to give what you could not afford and not take care of your Mother and Father. Did CHrist not say charity begins at home first.

 

[rinnie]

And Parker you lost me again. Where does the CC deny the Eucharist? In Gen. 22:18

The N.T begins with God’s promise to Abrahan fullfilled. Jesus is the seed. Jesus is the blessing and the promise from God.

In the O.T God asked Abraham to offer up his Son, Abraham obeyed God. Beings that Abraham did not hold back his Son and obeyed God, God saved Abrahams son and sent his own to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Our Catholic Faith is centered around this covenant the Eucharist. The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. We never ever deny the Eucharist.

 

[rinnie]

And Parker in Malachi, Christ declares it to be fulfilled in the coming of John the Baptizer Mt 17 10-13.

I believe I covered it all

 

[ParkerD]

Not really Parker. Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the kingdom. Jesus gives the keys before he dies because he is leaving the kingdom Christ came to rule on earth.

THis ties into Iss 22:15 Key of David The keys to the kingdom of earth, throne to his Fathers house. OPEN and SHUT, bind and loose.

The Prime minister rules the House until the King returns. So the Pope is the Prime Minister and rules the House until the king returns. The Apostles knew what the keys to the kingdom meant.

The bind and loose meant to open and shut.
Yes all of the Apostles have the right to bind a loose sin. But that scirpture is not the same bind and loose. I will place the KEY of the house of David on HIS shoulder. when HE OPENS no one shall SHUT when HE shuts no one shall Open. That is quite plain that the Pope has the authority from God to guard the Church. What the Pope opens on earth is Open in heaven, and what he closes on earth is closed in heaven. As scripture shows you I will fix HIM like a Peg in a SURE SPOT to be a PLACE OF HONOR for his family. IT ties completely into the O.T.

Hi, again, Rinnie,

Someday perhaps you will be able to read the beautiful passage in Isaiah 22:21-23 and find the deeper meaning that is about the crucifixion of the Savior upon the cross of Calvary with the use of nails, inasmuch as through the atonement the key of the house of David lays upon His shoulder and He is able to “open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open” just as John also saw in vision, Revelation 3:7, and just as the Savior acknowledged when He quoted Isaiah 61:1-2 in the synagogue at the beginning of His ministry. He opens the gate for the prisoners. The government is upon His shoulder. He lives today–He is not gone.

Until such time as that greater meaning unfolds for you, I suppose you can enjoy the meaning you have found in that particular passage.

Peace to you always, Rinnie.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi, again, Rinnie,

Someday perhaps you will be able to read the beautiful passage in Isaiah 22:21-23 and find the deeper meaning that is about the crucifixion of the Savior upon the cross of Calvary with the use of nails, inasmuch as through the atonement the key of the house of David lays upon His shoulder and He is able to “open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open” just as John also saw in vision, Revelation 3:7, and just as the Savior acknowledged when He quoted Isaiah 61:1-2 in the synagogue at the beginning of His ministry. He opens the gate for the prisoners. The government is upon His shoulder. He lives today–He is not gone.

Until such time as that greater meaning unfolds for you, I suppose you can enjoy the meaning you have found in that particular passage.

Peace to you always, Rinnie.

Parker, there is no deed to use this kind of condescending language. You have basically said that “Some day, Rinnie, you may come to be as wise as I am. Until then, I guess you’ll just have to enjoy your ingnorance.” Rinnie can defend herself, but I find this attitude offensive and it doesn’t get any of us very far. You have an interpretation, nothing more. It differs from the Catholic interpretation. Can’t we discuss the differences without running each other down?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, there is no deed to use this kind of condescending language. You have basically said that “Some day, Rinnie, you may come to be as wise as I am. Until then, I guess you’ll just have to enjoy your ingnorance.” Rinnie can defend herself, but I find this attitude offensive and it doesn’t get any of us very far. You have an interpretation, nothing more. It differs from the Catholic interpretation. Can’t we discuss the differences without running each other down?

I think it is a deeper meaning, and I think it is beautiful and significant. I wasn’t trying to “run down”. I wasn’t saying anyone needs to be “as wise as” whatever. I have found a few Catholics who understood that passage to be talking about the Savior, and who understood the cross references.

Again, I think the meaning is beautiful, significant, and deeply pertinent to the whole mission of the Savior.

Sorry if I offended you or Rinnie. Have a good evening…

 

[rinnie]

Hi, again, Rinnie,

Someday perhaps you will be able to read the beautiful passage in Isaiah 22:21-23 and find the deeper meaning that is about the crucifixion of the Savior upon the cross of Calvary with the use of nails, inasmuch as through the atonement the key of the house of David lays upon His shoulder and He is able to “open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open” just as John also saw in vision, Revelation 3:7, and just as the Savior acknowledged when He quoted Isaiah 61:1-2 in the synagogue at the beginning of His ministry. He opens the gate for the prisoners. The government is upon His shoulder. He lives today–He is not gone.

Until such time as that greater meaning unfolds for you, I suppose you can enjoy the meaning you have found in that particular passage.

Peace to you always, Rinnie.

Hi Parker no disrespect taken I know you better than that But I do not understand what you are saying in Open and none shall shut. An open door is the opportunity for sharing and proclaiming the gospel. What this scripture is saying is the devil has never blocked that opportunity for the CC or never will. He can’t shut! Which means stop the Pope who has the keys to the kingdom. Which means another way is we know that the Pope has authority and obeys the Holy Spirit and the devil can;t beat the Holy Spirit. The devil does not have that kind of power.

And I agree that the Gospel is the gate for all prisoners. And I also agree that Christ lives today by the Advocate the Holy Spirit he promised us that at Pentecost. We know Christ is alive in the Church by the power of the Holy Spirit and by his living presence in the Holy Eucharist.

Where do you feel, that we feel Christ is gone. That is impossible. CHrist promised us he is with us always until the end of age, he promised us he would not leave us orphans, and he kept that promise.

The Catholic Church has always been called the Church Alive! Which means Christ alive!

But that is why the Pope can shut, but to shut is to keep out the devil.

If you go back to the beginning of time Adam was told to till and keep the garden of eden. Adam failed.

Christ is the New Adam and will not fail. He give the Pope the keys to the kingdom until he comes again in person. For now he works through the Pope. And this is by keeping true the word of Christ and never letting anyone change it. That is why he cannot fail because Christ is leading him by the Holy SPirit. If the Pope fails the Holy Spirit fails and that is impossible.

 

[rinnie]

Parker, there is no deed to use this kind of condescending language. You have basically said that “Some day, Rinnie, you may come to be as wise as I am. Until then, I guess you’ll just have to enjoy your ingnorance.” Rinnie can defend herself, but I find this attitude offensive and it doesn’t get any of us very far. You have an interpretation, nothing more. It differs from the Catholic interpretation. Can’t we discuss the differences without running each other down?

Hi Steve, I appreciate what you said but if you knew Parker the way I do, you would not have seen it this way.

Parker and I can say things to one another and not take offense because believe it or not we know in our hearts its never meant to be taken that way. We have a unusual relationship you can say.

Somehow God has given us a special grace to communicate and not take offense of oneanother. We just have weird ways of questioning one another and thats okay.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker no disrespect taken I know you better than that But I do not understand what you are saying in Open and none shall shut. An open door is the opportunity for sharing and proclaiming the gospel. …

Rinnie,

I’m very grateful that you didn’t feel disrespected, and I think I have understood the point of view you have expressed.

A person would need to spend time thinking about Revelation 3:7 where a similar expression is used as in Isaiah 22:22 and where it is evident that the Savior is the one speaking, based on Revelation 3:5, 3:3, and 3:20. The word “peg” can also be rendered “nail” in translation, and always when the name “David” is used in places other than for King David himself, it is a reference to Christ as the Son of David. That is why Matthew and Luke so carefully show the lineage of Mary and Joseph through the ancestral line of David–to establish for the Jews that indeed Christ is the “Son of David” as prophesied in their holy writings.

You would I assume realize that Jesus was nailed to the cross through His wrists as well as through His feet, since that is how the Romans did a crucifixion. He was thus “fastened” to the cross by nails, and He of course received the “glorious throne to His Father’s house”, and receives the “offspring and the issue” by virtue of those who become spiritually reborn and thus become His sons and His daughters.

Christ holds the “keys of hell and of death” (Revelation 1:18), and He is “alive for evermore”. He can “open” the “gates of hell”, but a man can’t. Only He has the power and the privilege to do that.

I think Christ wants us to understand that He truly is “alive for evermore.” He wants a one-to-one relationship with each of us, every day, and does indeed “stand at the door and knock”; it is then for us to “open the door” (Revelation 3:20), and to “be zealous therefore, and repent.” (v. 19)

I think if Peter had had the kind of belief about Isaiah 22:22 that you have expressed about him, then he would have mentioned it in his epistles since he showed familiarity with the writings of Isaiah, and instead emphasized Christ as the “stone which the builders disallowed”, and a “stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,” (1 Peter 2:7-8) quoting Isaiah and a Psalm of David.

A wish of peace again to you and your family always.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Parker Of course Peter understood. All of the Apostles did, you must remember they were all Jewish and knew O.T scriptures.

I am not sure what you mean about Peter not knowing about the stone. If you read the scripture it says the stone that the buiders rejected became the cornerstone. That meant that the Jews rejected their Savior and Christ was indeed the King they were waiting for.

Peter is referred to as the Rock the foundation on what Christ built his Church. But Peter is never referred to as the Cornerstone that is Christ.

When my husband built our house we did everything ourself. My husband was very good at everything in the line of building but not at foundations. My Dad told me to get my Uncle for advice. He and his brothers were very good at this in their day.

So my husband called him and asked him is he felt he was capable of doing the foundation work. My Uncle said yes, you are a good carpenter. He said I will come out and lay the foundation, let me get the Cornerstones set and a few courses set up and you will be on your way. The cornerstone is the main part of a foundation…It is the hardest and takes the longest it must be perfect. Once he got him started it was quite simple. That is Christ he is the Main part of our faith. Just like for Peter to understand our faith was quite simple once Christ sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. He also led Peter the way my Uncle led my husband.

Like Christ tells you in the scripture w/o a good foundation your house will be built on sand a good rain and it will slide away. But built on a solid foundation it will last forever.

That is why our faith will last forever. It has Christ as the cornerstone.

 

[rinnie]

Parker also I have a question for you.

Do you believe that Christ was the true Son of God. True God and True Man. If you believe that as scripture states do you believe that by the Power of the Holy Spirit he was made Man.

IF you accept this teaching do you believe that he had the power of the Holy SPirit to forgive sin?

If you believe that CHrist was indeed the SOn of God do you believe as he states in Scripture that all power of heaven and earth has been given to him.

Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them. All Powre of heaven and on earth has been given to me therefore go and make disciples of all nations TEACHING them to OBSERVE ALL that I have commanded you and behold I am with YOU ALWAYS until the end of AGE.

Now if you accept that Christ is truly God and Truly Man and if you accept that he indeed had this power, how can you reject this power he gave to his Aposltes.

Do you not see that he is the CORNERSTONE and is with them always until the end of age.

Then how can our Father in heaven give this power to a human and give this power to Christ on earth if Christ cannot exercise this power and pass it on.

You can’t have it both ways Parker you either reject the power of Christ or you accept it and agree that he can pass it on as he stated in this paragraph.