Mormons: When did the Great Apostasy occur?

[Peter_John]

There is no guarantee that just because a person prays they will be guided correctly, since they also have free will choice.

I did exactly what the Book of Mormon says for the first time, years after I had accepted it as true. With a bias toward believing the Book of Mormon,I asked God if it was NOT true (which is what it says to do). He revealed “the truth of it unto [me]” by the power of the Holy Ghost. Everything he showed me is true in it is part of Catholicism, and there is even more of that in the 1830 edition – such as unequivocal affirmations of Jesus as the Very Eternal Father and Mary as the Mother of God. These have been removed in revisions. Those parts of it altered so are not true. The stories and history are not true. A few embedded heresies that can even be self-contradictory in the Book of Mormon are not true, but are the reason for its existence.

That is what the Holy Spirit told me when I desperately wanted to believe it was true, somehow. It is a hard thing to have always believed I had always existed and suddenly having to believe that I never existed except as a dream in the heart of God untiol 1960. Once I accepted that, though, it became very liberating.

And now you are trying to tell me that wasn’t really the Holy Spirit because when you prayed to ask if it IS true (not what it says) you got a different answer? The Book of Mormon never promises that you can pray and ask if it is true and God will show you. It says that you can pray and ask if all the details (these things – including their consistency with the Bible) are NOT true and God will “manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

Most people pray and ask for a witness of the whole book, but that is not the promise.

 

[pablope]

Peter John and Rinnie since she seems to believe whatever anyone else writes:

[SIGN]That seems an unjustified leap of reasoning. Paul had experiences Peter did not have while Peter was still alive.
. I thought God could reveal Himself to anybody he wanted. The test of a vision is not to whom it comes, but its consistency with what has already been revealed. [/SIGN]

That would be your belief which matches many others’ beliefs. This doesn’t make it correct, nor does it make it my belief. Revelation contains more than “what had already been revealed.” It contains far more than Paul’s vision on the road to Damascus.

'Wishing a good day and much peace to all readers.

Any new revelation truly from God cannot contradict what has already been revealed, Parker. Otherwise, you are making God look like he is undecided, has multiple minds and is a liar, which I can confidently say, not one agrees that God is a liar. Any revelation that is contrary from what has been revealed can only come from another source…the dark one.

And how do you know what was revealed to Paul at Damascus? He got a calling to believe in Christ. That is why, he spent years discerning and learning, and even submitted himself to Peter to make sure what he was going to teach was not in vain. And before he went out on his mission, Paul was “sent” and laid hands on, ordained, by the elders of the Church at Antioch.

That, Parker, is an example of a true man of God, an example of a true revelation from God. He would not contradict what he had already revealed or established. Only one coming from the devil would someone endeavor to go against God’s will.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Peter John and Rinnie since she seems to believe whatever anyone else writes:

To read the New Testament is to read page after page of messages that say in effect “there is more to be understood than these words about this subject”. .

The Great Apostasy occurred when Eve disobeyed God. That is it in a nutshell. When it becomes all about returning to God. It’s not complicated.
It has nothing to do with proving ourselves worthy. We never will be. Its about engrafting ourselves to Christ who is worthiness itself so that we can return transformed because of Him. Not because of us or what we think we can do. Rather its all about Jesus and who He is, what He has done.

I was created by God for Jesus and given free will to choose Him or myself. One leads to joy, the other hell. I am a sinner who needs Jesus to save me, to carry me home. My life is all about finding my Creator and spending time with Him… not to attain a certain position or glory. It’s simply to know His love for me so I can then go out and tell others about how much they are loved by Him as well. Maybe save a life for him in the process.

Tell me Parker…I need more?
To suggest that seems to be just more Apsostacy.

I don’t think you have to be that smart to get those things.

The Catholic Church has given me Jesus, the Jesus that is my Creator and my God. I will forever be grateful for the Church Jesus gives us. “Himself”

To me the whole Apostasy that is taught comes from ignorance and arrogance. It’s set up in a form of pride that comes from our fallen nature. there is no special breed of humans. Only Jesus can do things better. I am already with Him

I can still see Jospeph Smith as a young kid in my head walking through the grove thinking to himself “He spoke to me…He spoke to me”

When I was young I saw something different. It all made an impression on me. It did give me a sense of American pride. But I was a kid, I have grown up and found the child in me still very much alive in the Catholic church.

The Catholic Church is so different than the LDS church. Its two different worlds completely. I find it hard to converse because we are speaking about two different worlds as if we all live on the same one. I have been on both.
One real…one not. My reality along with over a Billion other Christians,… not to press this upon anyone.

I was given Christmas and Easter by the Catholics and everything in between. I came in late in life and it was everything that I thought this world should be. To know we are sinners in transition. To face our sin in order to understand the meaning of the cross, what exactly we have been delivered from. My favorite time in this life is seeing others come to the same revelation I came to. The same that the Apostles came to. That it’s not about us, rather it’s all about Jesus. We just get to tag along for His ride. It is the greatest journey on earth and beyond. Where His importance becomes our joy, where true peace reigns.

 

[Peter_John]

That would be your belief which matches many others’ beliefs. This doesn’t make it correct, nor does it make it my belief. Revelation contains more than “what had already been revealed.” It contains far more than Paul’s vision on the road to Damascus.

I am not referring to Paul’s conversion. Paul had numerous other experiences to which he refers in his own writings, and appears to have considered them, for lack of a better word, commonplace. He routinely refers to them and applies them in his ministry.

 

[KathleenGee]

The teachings of Mormonism are very different than even that of Protestantism, although they use the Protestant bibles, while refusing the Catholic ones, outside of documented Judeo Christianity.

There is the ongoing indifference to documentation of the early church and widespread practice of faith 60 years after the death of Christ, labelled apostate by Mormon.

This ongoing rejection of, what John Paul II’s description of the ‘profound logic of Revelation’ also goes against modern thinking of the integrity of witness.

I came across a magazine recentlyl put together by a Jewish crew of documentary film makers at a Southern California university’s department of Film Making. My father himself obtained ‘The Black Book of Poland’ when he was in the seminary that documented atrocities committed against the Jews and Slavic people between 1939 - 1941. He said they were hearing rumors of atrocities and pogroms coming out of that part of the world, but much was based on hearsay, very disturbing hearsay at that.

One of the most important concerns these documentary filmmakers have, and they include Steven Spielburg who also had a short article about his participation in this education, were presently working on putting a documentary of what happened in Rhwanda. There is always the concern for documentaries that they promote the truth in regard to man’s inhumanity to man, to genocide.

Although I was unable to find the link to their magazine this morning, I recall this one article by one of the members who was explaining how they work to find appropriate witness from all those they interviewed.

If there is one or two people reporting an incident, it can’t be considered. If 5 people witnessed an event, it still could not be recorded for documentary film. However, when 10 people witnessed a same event, they found that this experience was also being repeated in other locations.

Thus for an experience to be documented in relaying a genocide or an event of man’s inhumanity to man, it had to be experienced by atleast 10 people or else it was not verifiable in documenting such an event.

We have to look at the fruits of the prophets…and many, many times they did not enjoy favor, suffered, and felt rejected as the Lord’s prophet to those He had sent.
The other factor to verify a true prophet is that the prophet is bringing forth more pieces to the mystery, the puzzle so to speak of salvation history.

Only with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and the Apostles now reflecting on ancient prophecies, the teachings of Christ, His life, HIs directive for His Memorial, the Mass, His passion and death, His resurrection and Ascension into heaven…all these events fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament.

With Christ’s mission completed here on earth, the next event is Christ restoring His people to God, the new dimension now the Church of Christ.

From the Church, all members and saints, all have our own charism our part to make Christ present as His Body. All of us have charisms that repeat the same reality and truth about Jesus Christ, Who He is, HIs Words and teachings.

No member of the Body of Christ has fruit that contradict the history of God among His people. We say the same story, we share and profess the same belief in Jesus Christ in different forms, but always the same message.

Jesus had 12 Apostles, not 10. And one Judas Iscariot was gone, the Apostles immediately had another replace him, the 12 also representing the 12 tribes of Israel, the completion of perfection of the Church…the woman with 12 stars.

Just a reflection here…

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker,

I’m still curious as to why Matthew 18:18 seems to only refer to certain sacraments/ordinances for Mormons (e.g. sealing marriages) and doesn’t seem to be taken in conjunction with John 20:21-23 and refer to forgiveness of sins. (Especially since Matthew 15-17 refers to a person sinning.) If I remember correctly, you once told me that the Mormon apostles do not forgive sins (in the same way that Catholic priests do), but that they counsel an individual and help them pray to seek forgiveness from God. Perhaps it’s just my perception and I’m misunderstanding the Mormon view so maybe you could clarify this for me. Thanks.

Hi, Jay53,

'Hoping all is very well with you and your family.

Perhaps I didn’t explain thoroughly enough before. John 20:21-23 is very important in that it shows that the apostles were then receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, which would be absolutely necessary for each of them in order to have the gift of discernment which would be necessary to know whether a person had been forgiven of their sins by their repentance and through Christ’s forgiveness, and thus for the apostles to rule on whether a person could be considered a “faithful” member of the church, or whether if they had grievously sinned they needed to have their membership removed from the records of membership.

The apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rule on matters of church membership in the same way the original eleven and Matthias and Paul and Barnabas did. They do so through the gift of the Holy Ghost and through their keys that “what they bind on earth is bound in heaven” and the keys to the kingdom of God on earth, which the lead apostle (the President of the church) holds and the other apostles have a right to hold in full measure if they become the lead apostle.

The bishops functioning in LDS wards must submit any proposed decision about a matter of church membership to the First Presidency for consideration by one of the apostles who advises the president of the church on that matter and they consider the particular matter and the president makes the final decision.

So the bishops have an important responsibility to discern worthiness and give advice and background on a worthiness matter involving one of the members of their ward (or a stake president of their stake), but a final decision concerning worthiness or concerning restoration of temple ordinance validity, rests with the President of the church who holds the keys of membership in the church as well as the sealing keys for temple sealings as you had noted.

 

[SteveVH]

The Great Apostasy occurred when Eve disobeyed God. That is it in a nutshell. When it becomes all about returning to God. It’s not complicated.
It has nothing to do with proving ourselves worthy. We never will be. Its about engrafting ourselves to Christ who is worthiness itself so that we can return transformed because of Him. Not because of us or what we think we can do. Rather its all about Jesus and who He is, what He has done.

I was created by God for Jesus and given free will to choose Him or myself. One leads to joy, the other hell. I am a sinner who needs Jesus to save me, to carry me home. My life is all about finding my Creator and spending time with Him… not to attain a certain position or glory. It’s simply to know His love for me so I can then go out and tell others about how much they are loved by Him as well. Maybe save a life for him in the process.

Tell me Parker…I need more?
To suggest that seems to be just more Apsostacy.

I don’t think you have to be that smart to get those things.

The Catholic Church has given me Jesus, the Jesus that is my Creator and my God. I will forever be grateful for the Church Jesus gives us. “Himself”

To me the whole Apostasy that is taught comes from ignorance and arrogance. It’s set up in a form of pride that comes from our fallen nature. there is no special breed of humans. Only Jesus can do things better. I am already with Him

I can still see Jospeph Smith as a young kid in my head walking through the grove thinking to himself “He spoke to me…He spoke to me”

When I was young I saw something different. It all made an impression on me. It did give me a sense of American pride. But I was a kid, I have grown up and found the child in me still very much alive in the Catholic church.

The Catholic Church is so different than the LDS church. Its two different worlds completely. I find it hard to converse because we are speaking about two different worlds as if we all live on the same one. I have been on both.
One real…one not. My reality along with over a Billion other Christians,… not to press this upon anyone.

I was given Christmas and Easter by the Catholics and everything in between. I came in late in life and it was everything that I thought this world should be. To know we are sinners in transition. To face our sin in order to understand the meaning of the cross, what exactly we have been delivered from. My favorite time in this life is seeing others come to the same revelation I came to. The same that the Apostles came to. That it’s not about us, rather it’s all about Jesus. We just get to tag along for His ride. It is the greatest journey on earth and beyond. Where His importance becomes our joy, where true peace reigns.

Rich, what a great post! It is all about Jesus. Some find it hard to understand that we no longer look for revelation because God has spoken everything in his one Word, Jesus Christ. He has nothing more to say. And what else could He say? Jesus is everything, the complete fulfillment of our joy. To look any further is an indication to me that one has yet to truly find Jesus. The question that begs to be asked is; for what are you searching?
Is Christ not sufficient?

Thanks for bringing it all home.

God bless.

 

[ParkerD]

So you do believe in secret knowledge. That is Gnosticism, an early heresy. Cross refence cannot alter the meaning and intent of any referenced passages when taking independently in context. That is the only way that such positions can be mainatained on a Biblical basis alone, and as they are not independently suggested in the text the selection of cross-references must still be guided by extra-Biblical sources.

Peter John,

Paul believed in “secret knowledge,” and affirms this in 1 Corinthians 2 and 3. John believed in “secret knowledge” and affirmed this very plainly in the book of Revelation. So if that makes them Gnostics, then I am happy to be in their company and I thank you for the compliment.

As far as the ease in cross referencing Isaiah 22:22-25 with Revelation 3:5-7 and Isaiah 61:1-3, then that is an easily done cross referencing for a student of the Bible and one who understands that Christ is the fulfillment of the promised “King David” as the Son of David. That is not “hidden knowledge” or “secret knowledge”–or it shouldn’t be.

But those who approach the Bible with the built-in belief that they must refer to “experts” and can’t discern clear matters such as the above-noted cross-referencing on their own, will stumble easily and the Bible advised them that this very thing of stumbling would happen, and was prophesied to happen.

 

[ParkerD]

Any new revelation truly from God cannot contradict what has already been revealed, Parker. Otherwise, you are making God look like he is undecided, has multiple minds and is a liar, which I can confidently say, not one agrees that God is a liar. Any revelation that is contrary from what has been revealed can only come from another source…the dark one.

And how do you know what was revealed to Paul at Damascus? He got a calling to believe in Christ. That is why, he spent years discerning and learning, and even submitted himself to Peter to make sure what he was going to teach was not in vain. And before he went out on his mission, Paul was “sent” and laid hands on, ordained, by the elders of the Church at Antioch.

That, Parker, is an example of a true man of God, an example of a true revelation from God. He would not contradict what he had already revealed or established. Only one coming from the devil would someone endeavor to go against God’s will.

Pablope,

The discussion had been talking about John and the book of Revelation, which contains more prophecies about the end times and about the Restoration than any other book in the Bible. Paul’s vision was a conversion vision, not a doctrinally new vision.

Maybe some put a box around what God can reveal whenever He wants, but I don’t and I don’t object that John received the vision that he recorded and we have as the book of Revelation. It is not contradictory, but it adds to our knowledge of many important things that God wanted us to know.

Other than explaining that, I really don’t know why you associated the devil with the discussion about Paul and John. John certainly saw that the devil was allowed to influence people on the earth, including having very extensive influence, but that is a different subject although it bears on the “great apostasy”. It doesn’t bear on the vision of Paul or the visions of John.

 

[SteveVH]

"Gnosticism in its various forms is for the most part, and except perhaps for some of its milder forms, not Christian heresy at all, but an utterly alien religious philosophy managing to pass itself off as Christian by simply drawing somewhat upon Christian terminology, disguising itself with an overlay of “Christian” words." (William A. Jurgens, H.E.D., The Faith Of The Early Fathers, Volume 2, pg.135)

I don’t think calling one’s self a gnostic is a good thing. Paul and John were not gnostics. They gave us revelation, they did not keep it a secret.

 

[ParkerD]

I don’t think calling one’s self a gnostic is a good thing. Paul and John were not gnostics. They gave us revelation, they did not keep it a secret.

Peter John used the term gnostic as though to describe anyone who believes there is more knowledge to be had than what “everyone knows.”

The apostle Paul taught that there is knowledge to be had that everyone doesn’t know, and taught that in 1 Corinthians 2 and 3. I agree that this is not Gnosticism, but if someone wants to place a broad label of “Gnosticism” on knowing revealed knowledge that everyone doesn’t know, then although they have used the term incorrectly, I fit the category of having revealed knowledge that everyone doesn’t know. (See 1 Corinthians 2 and 3 for more details.)

(By the way, if you think John described every detail of everything he saw in his visions, then I guess we disagree markedly about that.)

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, Catholic-RCIA, for your testimony. I really enjoy reading your posts.

Christ the Truth, the Light, the Way. No dark secrets.

Why would He even need to be secretive? and who would need secret information for faith in Christ, a public, transparent figurehead? Christ the Sleuth?

There are many false christs in every generation.

 

[flyonthewall]

Thank you, Catholic-RCIA, for your testimony. I really enjoy reading your posts.

Christ the Truth, the Light, the Way. No dark secrets.

Why would He even need to be secretive? and who would need secret information for faith in Christ, a public, transparent figurehead? Christ the Sleuth?

There are many false christs in every generation.

I think the fact that Jesus taught in parables to keep the mysteries of the kingdom of God from those who had ears but could not hear or those that had eyes to see but perceived not, says there are things that are hidden, that are not accessable to just anybody.
The secrets are not dark, but they are only for those who truly seek them.

 

[KathleenGee]

Fly,

Refer to post 270.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God; once His mission was completed at the Ascension, no more was said.

We are the ones in darkness. It is Christ Who brings us into the Light of God.

Christ is Truth. The Word of God is the Splendor of Truth, enlightening our way, always working to draw us closer both to God and to each other.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Rich, what a great post! It is all about Jesus. Some find it hard to understand that we no longer look for revelation because God has spoken everything in his one Word, Jesus Christ. He has nothing more to say. And what else could He say? Jesus is everything, the complete fulfillment of our joy. To look any further is an indication to me that one has yet to truly find Jesus. The question that begs to be asked is; for what are you searching?
Is Christ not sufficient?

Thanks for bringing it all home.

God bless.

Thanks Steve
All praise and glory to God, as I just wrote it, thanks to all who have taught me in Christ. What a ride it is!!!

 

[flyonthewall]

Fly,

Refer to post 270.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God; once His mission was completed at the Ascension, no more was said.

I disagree. If nothing more was said after the Ascension, then should we disregard the book of Revelation? That all came after the Ascension.

We are the ones in darkness. It is Christ Who brings us into the Light of God.

Christ is Truth. The Word of God is the Splendor of Truth, enlightening our way, always working to draw us closer both to God and to each other.

This in no way negates the fact that Jesus kept things hidden from those that could not/would not understand. That is the point of:
"13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

 

[KathleenGee]

What begins after Christ’s ascension into heaven is a new dimension in salvation history: His Church. Where the Epistles and Revelation ends, the Church begins.

Revelations is Christ’s mystical admonishment and exhortation for us to persevere in Him. Revelation discusses the beginning churches that are reflected ad finitum in beginning faith communities. These define the same problems down through the history of Christianity because of human nature.

The Book of Revelation essentially explains that those who persevere will gain eternal life, suffering is a part of life, and that good will eventually triumph over evil.

There are descriptions of afflictions that hit mankind for refusing God. There is the mystical representation of Christ the Lamb of God, the High Altar in heaven where the communion of saints praise God…those who never lied and lived solely for the Lord…those who died martyrs…the Blood of the Cup of the Lamb flowing over.

Essentially what the Book of Revelations tells us that Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection is the fulfillment of Revelation, not to look at it in linear time as such, but to see such events as conditions we all live in each generation, but know because of the Lord Jesus, God has already won over evil…all because of Christ.

Rev 22 images the Mass, the perpetual and sacramental sacrifice. We at Mass in adoration already are one step in heaven on this earth.

Revelations is telling us as Christ said on the Cross, ‘It is finished.’ So the message is the same: Christ lived, died, and resurrected fulfilling God’s plan to atone and restore mankind. The Lord has never left His church.

There are the locusts, men with long hair, who have the power to poison souls…the heretics…

Christ’s continual prayer was for us to be one. Christ is the Word Made Flesh, already revealed, glorified in heaven. There is no other message.

Revelations is already done, accomplished in Christ. Now it is our turn to persevere in Him.

 

[catholic-rcia]

What begins after Christ’s ascension into heaven is a new dimension in salvation history: His Church. Where the Epistles and Revelation ends, the Church begins.

Revelations is Christ’s mystical admonishment and exhortation for us to persevere in Him. Revelation discusses the beginning churches that are reflected ad finitum in beginning faith communities. These define the same problems down through the history of Christianity because of human nature.

The Book of Revelation essentially explains that those who persevere will gain eternal life, suffering is a part of life, and that good will eventually triumph over evil.

There are descriptions of afflictions that hit mankind for refusing God. There is the mystical representation of Christ the Lamb of God, the High Altar in heaven where the communion of saints praise God…those who never lied and lived solely for the Lord…those who died martyrs…the Blood of the Cup of the Lamb flowing over.

Essentially what the Book of Revelations tells us that Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection is the fulfillment of Revelation, not to look at it in linear time as such, but to see such events as conditions we all live in each generation, but know because of the Lord Jesus, God has already won over evil…all because of Christ.

Rev 22 images the Mass, the perpetual and sacramental sacrifice. We at Mass in adoration already are one step in heaven on this earth.

Revelations is telling us as Christ said on the Cross, ‘It is finished.’ So the message is the same: Christ lived, died, and resurrected fulfilling God’s plan to atone and restore mankind. The Lord has never left His church.

There are the locusts, men with long hair, who have the power to poison souls…the heretics…

Christ’s continual prayer was for us to be one. Christ is the Word Made Flesh, already revealed, glorified in heaven. There is no other message.

Revelations is already done, accomplished in Christ. Now it is our turn to persevere in Him.

One soul at a time until the end of the age
Yes we may be in the third or fourh quarter but we do know the final score.
satan looses…Jesus wins as love always prevails.

 

[Peter_John]

I think the fact that Jesus taught in parables to keep the mysteries of the kingdom of God from those who had ears but could not hear or those that had eyes to see but perceived not, says there are things that are hidden, that are not accessable to just anybody.
The secrets are not dark, but they are only for those who truly seek them.

He did not declare the parables in public. He declared them in the wide open, and it does not take any special knowledge to understand them. Many became clear in His resurrection. It also says that whenever the disciples asked for an explanation, he explained it to them clearly. That means the disciples in general, not just the Apostles.

The evidence that it was the former is because when they asked Him to declare what He meant by saying they would have to eat His flesh and drink His blood, he answered that it means they have to eat His flesh and drink His blood: He told them it was literal. That is when a lot of those he explained it to left, but since the Apostles were among those who stay – recognixing that they still did not understand it – we know that He explained the parable to all the disciples, not just a select few. This is where he declares the dogma of the Real Presence in the Eucharist – not just a symbol – and since He had yet to reveal the Eucharist, they could not understand.

There is knowledge better understood with experience, but the declaration is right out in the open. If there is “secret knowledge” it includes things like recognizing that the earliest Christians 1) Were still practicing Jews , 2) Believed that Christ’s return was imminent until most of the way through the First Century, when most of the New Testament was written. and 3) Accepted the Greek books of the Old Testament as Word of God. Understanding that one understands the Christian perspective on the New Testament better, as that founded the perspective for selecting the writings for it.

The most important thing to understand is that they were Catholic. Jesus continued speaking in Parables through the Body of Christ. The Mass itself is the greatest Parable of all, and the Eucharist the most sacred of all ordinances (in LDS language). There is nothing secret about it, it is out there on every street corner in some cities, several times a day for anyone to experience, and they either get it or they don’t. When they do get it they become Catholic quicker than they can say “transubstantiation,”

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

Paul believed in “secret knowledge,” and affirms this in 1 Corinthians 2 and 3. John believed in “secret knowledge” and affirmed this very plainly in the book of Revelation. So if that makes them Gnostics, then I am happy to be in their company and I thank you for the compliment.

As far as the ease in cross referencing Isaiah 22:22-25 with Revelation 3:5-7 and Isaiah 61:1-3, then that is an easily done cross referencing for a student of the Bible and one who understands that Christ is the fulfillment of the promised “King David” as the Son of David. That is not “hidden knowledge” or “secret knowledge”–or it shouldn’t be.

But those who approach the Bible with the built-in belief that they must refer to “experts” and can’t discern clear matters such as the above-noted cross-referencing on their own, will stumble easily and the Bible advised them that this very thing of stumbling would happen, and was prophesied to happen.

Read my response to flyonthewall on this one. All I will add is that the secret knowledge that the Apostles refer to is nothing that changes the meaning of anything Jesus said, such as changing His affirmation that in Heaven people aren’t married to mean that it means to be married in heaven you have to be married in this life. That would take “secret knowledge” because it is not justified in context or by anything in the Bible, or by the way Jesus spoke. It would make as much sense, in that case, to believe that since He told the Samaritan woman she had five husbands that means she would have five husbands in heaven, as he did not make the statement conditional.

The other point is that the New testament had not been set when Paul and others said those things, so there were things in their scriptures that had yet to be codified into scripture.