Mortal sin, death, repentance and salvation

[Robert1111]

part of the elect?

Yeah, the predestined whom God picked from the “massa dannata” of poor sinners who were only created for the purpose of allowing them to commit mortal sin and die in final impenitence, in order to satiate God’s wrath with their hellish punishment.

This is what the predestinarians believe and it really is horrifying.

 

[Techno2000]

Well, of course, if someone is that hardened he will go to Hell, and maybe even people who didn’t commit horrifying mortal sins can harden themselves to the point they are beyond salvation. I have no objections against that. I have objections against the idea that God doesn’t give to everyone a real, true, fair chance and that some people simple “happen” to die in mortal sin.

I don’t believe this, and i also find this idea really offensive to God.

Well, According to another private revelation I read from the Virgin Mary. It said that after you die if you are sorry for your sins Jesus will feel sorry you, and you will be saved.

 

[Techno2000]

A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

Isaiah 42:3

I found an interpretation of this from private revelation . If God can find even the tiniest bit of love smoldering in your heart at your judgement, he won’t let it die out in Hell.

 

[Robert1111]

Well, According to another private revelation I read from the Virgin Mary. It said that after you die if you are sorry for your sins Jesus will feel sorry you, and you will be saved.

But the thing is that you cannot be sorry for your sins if you die in mortal sin. That’s why it’s extremely important to die in the state of Grace.

 

[Robert1111]

I found an interpretation of this from private revelation . If God can find even the tiniest bit of love smoldering in your heart at your judgement, he won’t let it die out in Hell.

That’s basically equal to what has been said by Padre Pio and Saint Faustina as well, but if you pay attention Padre Pio talked about the moment where we appear to be dead and the soul has yet to separate itself from the body

“I believe that not a great number of souls go to hell. God loves us so much. He formed us at his image. God loves us beyond understanding. And it is my belief that when we have passed from the consciousness of the world, when we appear to be dead, God, before He judges us, will give us a chance to see and understand what sin really is. And if we understand it properly, how could we fail to repent?”

It’s worth noting that he said “when we APPEAR to be dead”. Because he knew that when someone is truly dead his fate is sealed. I agree with you that if someone has the tiniest bit of love smoldering in his heart God will save him, but if this happens, this happens before actual death.

“ Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1035)

So while i agree with you, i’d say that God will use that “tiniest bit of love smoldering in his heart” to prevent this person from dying in mortal sin. Because after death, it’s game over.

 

[Vico]

@Vico

But according to molinism, the invididual can actually cooperate with sufficient Grace, he has the real power to cooperate, he doesn’t need efficacious Grace first. According to molinism, it’s the individual who chooses to cooperate and accept Grace who makes Grace efficacious. That makes much more sense because it means that God gives to everyone what is really needed and necessary for salvation, even though some refuse it.

Per St. Thomas Aquinas, God determines not just the nature of created effects but also their modality – He determines them to be free choices. The defectiveness of any act of will of a creature is traceable to the creature not to God’s causality. St. Thomas called free will liberum arbitrium, this being the power to make choices between alternatives. God’s divine foreknowledge and efficacious will do not necessitate human choices.

Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 23. Predestination Article 6. Whether predestination is certain?​

I answer that, Predestination most certainly and infallibly takes effect; yet it does not impose any necessity, so that, namely, its effect should take place from necessity. For it was said above (Article 1), that predestination is a part of providence. But not all things subject to providence are necessary; some things happening from contingency, according to the nature of the proximate causes, which divine providence has ordained for such effects. Yet the order of providence is infallible, as was shown above (I:22:4). So also the order of predestination is certain; yet free-will is not destroyed; whence the effect of predestination has its contingency. Moreover all that has been said about the divine knowledge and will (I:14:13; I:19:4) must also be taken into consideration; since they do not destroy contingency in things, although they themselves are most certain and infallible.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article6

 

[Vico]

… so why bother?

God gives a person free will and that is what will control the final state after the person receives the gift of actual graces.

Catechism

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor , the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. …

 

[Robert1111]

Per St. Thomas Aquinas, God determines not just the nature of created effects but also their modality – He determines them to be free choices

Sure, but without him determining this free choice in the first place i will certainly die in mortal sin. So we return to the point about thomism and augustinianism: if God hasn’t “chosen” you ante praevisa merita you are a damned man walking and there is nothing you can do about it, because he is not willing to give you the Grace that would absolutely prevent you from dying in mortal sin and this means that you WILL die in mortal sin.

 

[Robert1111]

The defectiveness of any act of will of a creature is traceable to the creature not to God’s causality.

Sure, but according to Thomism, man will absolutely commit mortal sin and most importantly he will absolutely die in mortal sin unless God gives him efficacious Grace, because man’s nature is so weak and inclined to sin that he never cooperates with sufficient Grace.

Imagine this: you have a child who is really, really attracted to fire. You explained to him that he shouldn’t touch it because it burns, but you also know that he is so attracted to it that unless you give him a special pill he will never resist the urge to play with fire. And, despite knowing this, you decide to let him play with fire without giving to him the help that would have absolutely prevented him burning himself. Not only that, but your help was also absolutely NECESSARY for him to make a good decision. Then you have another child who is just as attracted to fire, but you decide, for no other reason than your own will, that you will help this child with the pill that will make sure that he will not want to play with fire. The end result: one of your sons burns himself to death, the other grows up and becomes a successful young boy. And you could have prevented your first children from burning himself but you decided not to, despite knowing full well what would have happened and that he would have never been able to resist the temptation of playing with fire without your help.

Would you be a good father?

 

[fhansen]

The weakness in Molinism; Sufficient grace is inefficacious to say yes to God’s call to heaven. – God provides the wrong (sufficient which is in reality inefficacious for salvation) grace to everyone.

No, because without sufficient grace no one can say “yes”. The difference is only that it still retains the ability for man to say “no”.

First we need efficacious grace which enables us to freely say yes to God’s call to heaven.

Sufficient grace does the same

With efficacious grace, man is able to resist the grace but does not, because the grace causes him to FREELY choose the good.

.Double speak

 

[Robert1111]

God gives a person free will and that is what will control the final state after the person receives the gift of actual graces.

This is only true if sufficient Grace is REALLY sufficient and i don’t absolutely need efficacious Grace to repent. Otherwise i have no control whatsoever. Under thomism, if God stops giving efficacious Grace to Padre Pio altogether, he is guaranteed to die in mortal sin. And if he starts giving efficacious Grace to Peter Scully, and he continues to give this kind of Grace to him until death, he is guaranteed both repentance and an holy death.

Free will is only free if God hasn’t already predetermined the outcome.

 

[Robert1111]

No, because without sufficient grace no one can say “yes”. The difference is only that it still retains the ability for man to say “no”.

Exactly. You have both the ability to say “no” and “yes”. On the other hand the predestinarians believe that sufficient Grace only gives you the ability to say no, because you will never, never, never possibly say “yes” with mere sufficient Grace.

If you have two universes in which the exact same people exist, and in one universe they all receive only sufficient Grace, they will all go to Hell, without exception.

In other universe, however, where these same persons receive efficacious Grace, they will all go to Heaven, without exception.

 

[Robert1111]

Sufficient grace does the same

Not according to the predestinarians. According to them, sufficient Grace only makes you accountable for your sin, but you aren’t actually able to freely say yes to God’s call. According to them sufficient Grace is a mere potency that absolutely needs God further intervention to pass from potency to act. In other words, this “Grace” only makes you accountable for your sin but it is absolutely powerless to save you.

 

[Vico]

…
Sure, but according to Thomism, man will absolutely commit mortal sin and most importantly he will absolutely die in mortal sin unless God gives him efficacious Grace, because man’s nature is so weak and inclined to sin that he never cooperates with sufficient Grace…

No, the teaching is that God secures that some will use their free will to cooperate with actual grace. God’s will does not remove the individuals free will, therefore the individual remains responsible.

Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 105. The change of creatures by God > Article 4. Whether God can move the created will?​

Reply to Objection 2. To be moved voluntarily is to be moved from within, that is, by an interior principle: yet this interior principle may be caused by an exterior principle; and so to be moved from within is not repugnant to being moved by another.

Reply to Objection 3. If the will were so moved by another as in no way to be moved from within itself, the act of the will would not be imputed for reward or blame. But since its being moved by another does not prevent its being moved from within itself, as we have stated (Reply to Objection 2), it does not thereby forfeit the motive for merit or demerit.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1105.htm#article4

 

[Vico]

…
Free will is only free if God hasn’t already predetermined the outcome.

No, God makes the will free. It is free with both efficacious grace and sufficient grace. With both efficacious and sufficient grace the power is given, it is infallibly certain however that the person will not freely do good, but will freely sin with merely sufficient grace.

 

[Robert1111]

Where is my post?

 

[Robert1111]

No, God makes the will free. It is free with both efficacious grace and sufficient grace. With both efficacious and sufficient grace the power is given, it is infallibly certain however that the person will not freely do good, but will freely sin with merely sufficient grace.

Sure, i need efficacious Grace to freely do good, because with mere sufficient Grace i will not want to freely do good. This means that efficacious Grace is absolutely necessary for salvation and under Thomism God doesn’t give this Grace to some people for no other reason than his own will.

This is the truth (if the Thomists were correct, of course).

Aquinas was very straightforward about it

Summa Theologiae, First Part, question 23, article 5, Reply to objection 3.

• The reason for the predestination of some and reprobation of others must be sought for in the divine goodness… God wills to manifest his goodness in men; in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of the mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God chooses some and rejects others … Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others HAS NO REASON EXCEPT THE DIVINE WILL.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

 

[Robert1111]

No, the teaching is that God secures that some will use their free will to cooperate with actual grace. God’s will does not remove the individuals free will, therefore the individual remains responsible

I never said that God removes the individual’s free will. I’ve said that according to the predestinarians, if i’m not given efficacious Grace i will absolutely NOT cooperate with actual Grace, since sufficient Grace according to this system is a mere potency that absolutely needs God intervention to pass from potency to act.

So yes, you can talk about all the technicalities you want, but the end result doesn’t change:

1. If i’m not predestined, i’m guaranteed to die in mortal sin because i will freely choose to not cooperate with God’s Grace.
2. In order to cooperate with God’s Grace i would have needed his intrinsically efficacious Grace, because sufficient Grace is nothing but a mere potency that ABSOLUTELY needs God’s further intervention to pass from potency to act.
3. God decided to not give me the Grace i ABSOLUTELY needed for salvation because of point number 1: i wasn’t a predestined.

In other words, there is no getting around it: the predestinarians believe that some people are born doomed from the start, because they will inevitably use their free will in the wrong way and God is not willing to help them with the Grace that would prevent them from using free will in the wrong way in the first place.

We return to the example of the children and fire

• You have a child who is really, really attracted to fire. You explained to him he shouldn’t touch it because it burns, but you also know that he is so attracted to it that unless you give him a special pill he will never resist the urge to play with fire. And, despite knowing this, you decide to let him play with fire without giving to him the help that would have absolutely prevented him burning himself. Not only that, but this special pill was also absolutely NECESSARY for him to make a good decision. Then you have another child who is just as attracted to fire, but you decide, for no other reason than your own will, that you will help this child with the pill that will make sure that he will not want to play with fire. The end result: one of your sons burns himself to death, the other grows up and becomes a successful young boy. And you could have prevented your first child from burning himself but you decided not to, despite knowing full well what would have happened and that he would have never been able to resist the temptation of playing with fire without your help.

Would you be a good father?”

 

[Vico]

Vico:

No, God makes the will free. It is free with both efficacious grace and sufficient grace. With both efficacious and sufficient grace the power is given, it is infallibly certain however that the person will not freely do good, but will freely sin with merely sufficient grace.

Sure, i need efficacious Grace to freely do good, because with mere sufficient Grace i will not want to freely do good. This means that efficacious Grace is absolutely necessary for salvation and under Thomism God doesn’t give this Grace to some people for no other reason than his own will.

This is the truth (if the Thomists were correct, of course).

Aquinas was very straightforward about it

Summa Theologiae, First Part, question 23, article 5, Reply to objection 3.

• The reason for the predestination of some and reprobation of others must be sought for in the divine goodness… God wills to manifest his goodness in men; in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of the mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God chooses some and rejects others … Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others HAS NO REASON EXCEPT THE DIVINE WILL.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

The key phrase there is “whom he reprobates, by means of his justice” for justice can only punish those that are responsible for their actions and that only through free will, so in now way does God cause the reprobation through sufficient grace.

 

[Robert1111]

Vico:
Once again, you haven’t touched the core issue. The core issue is that, while those people are responsible for their sin, it was impossible for them not to sin without God giving efficacious Grace to them.

So they are punished after the sin but they were actually reprobated and doomed from the very start, because God refused to predestine them to Heaven which is absolutely and irrevocably necessary for salvation.

Again, see the example of the children.

I never said that God according to the thomists punishes the sinners before they commit a sin. But he REPROBATES them before the sin, since he elects other people unconditionally and they are left in the dust.

In other words:

1. Reprobation is the necessary and sufficient element that makes sure that these people will now receive what is absolutely necessary for them to reach Salvation,
2. Since they don’t receive what is necessary for salvation but they only a receive a weak and ineffective “”””””””sufficient”””””” Grace (which, again, for the thomists is only a mere potency that cannot pass from potency to act without God’s further intervention), they will unavoidably, thanks to our fallen nature, die in the state of mortal sin and since they died in mortal sin they will be punished with eternal hell fire forever and ever.