Mortal sin, death, repentance and salvation

[Vico]

… since sufficient Grace according to this system is a mere potency that absolutely needs God intervention to pass from potency to act. …

You are not talking about St. Thomas Aquinas then? Per St. Thomas the person is given what is necessary to choose.

Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 23 Predestination > Article 3. Whether God reprobates any man?​

Reply to Objection 2. Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined—namely, glory—and of what is received in this life—namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present—namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future—namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace. In this way, the word of the prophet is true—namely, “Destruction is thy own, O Israel.”

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article3

 

[Robert1111]

You are not talking about St. Thomas Aquinas then? Per St. Thomas the person is given what is necessary to choose.

LMAO? The person is given what is necessary to choose?

Let me quote what Aquinas said, from your own quote

• Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present—namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God.

In other words, they have been abandoned by God way before dying in mortal sin.

Aquinas also says that reprobation is

• It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future—namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace.

See what i mean? They are reprobated, deserted by Grace and this is why they unavoidably fall into mortal sin and final impenitence. Yes, the guilt proceeds form their free-will, but they wouldn’t have fallen into guilt in the first place if they hadn’t been deserted by the intrinsically efficacious Grace that was absolutely necessary for their salvation.

I’m not sure why you quoted Aquinas when he said exactly what i said when i described Calvinism… Ahem, sorry, Thomism.

If you can’t see how petty, malignant, hateful and despicable is the “”””god””””” described above, then i really don’t know what to say,

 

[Vico]

Vico:

You are not talking about St. Thomas Aquinas then? Per St. Thomas the person is given what is necessary to choose.

LMAO? The person is given what is necessary to choose?

Let me quote what Aquinas said, from your own quote

• Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present—namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God.

In other words, they have been abandoned by God way before dying in mortal sin.

Aquinas also says

*It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future—namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace.

See what i mean? They are reported, deserted by Grace and THUS they unavoidably fall into mortal sin and final impenitence.

I’m not sure why you quoted Aquinas when he said exactly what i said when i described Calvinism… Ahem, sorry, Thomism.

It is different than Calvinism. The person is responsible for sin due to free will given by God. God is then the cause of the just result. The damnation would not be just without the person’s culpability. Actual grace is a strengthening prior to and coincident with the act. If the person freely chooses to not utilize it, then it was rejected, which is deserted (the state of grace is lost).

 

[Techno2000]

“I believe that not a great number of souls go to hell.

Ok, again from private revelation, the Virgin Mary said…most people go to Purgatory,the next amount go to Hell and the last few go straight to Heaven.

PS this seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[Robert1111]

It is different than Calvinism. The person is responsible for sin due to free will given by God. God is then the cause of the just result. The damnation would not be just without the person’s culpability.

It’s different than Calvinism just like a pig with lipstick is different than a pig without lipstick.

Once again, I’m not denying that the person is responsible for sin, but without efficacious Grace it was absolutely impossible for said person to avoid sin, since sufficient Grace is a mere potency that cannot pass from potency to act unless God helps the person with a special Grace (efficacious Grace).

So yeah, the person is responsible, but there was NO WAY for him/her to avoid that outcome. He was doomed from the very start, because, quoting Aquinas, he has been “deserted by Grace”.

So yeah, God punishes you only after you sin, not before. He just makes sure that you don’t receive what is absolutely necessary for you to avoid sin and punishment (yes, efficacious Grace is absolutely necessary for that).

There are two stages:

1. The person is unconditionally reprobated ante praevisa demerita (if the elect are predestined ante praevisa merita this means that the reprobated are reprobated ante praevisa demerita as well, there is absolutely no getting around it).
2. Reprobation isn’t punishment, the person isn’t punished unless he or she dies in mortal sin. But since Reprobation means that said person will be deserted by Grace, not receiving the Grace she needs for salvation in the process, this person will unavoidably die in mortal sin and, as a consequence of the death in mortal sin, he or she will be sent to Hell where he or she will be severely tormented forever and ever.

Awwwwww, what a lovely, tender, merciful God is the “”””””god””””” of the thomists and the augustinians.

P.s: i put “””god””” in quotes because said malignant and hateful “”””good””” is as real as Jupiter.

 

[Robert1111]

@Vico

Also, when Aquinas said that Reprobation “is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future—namely, eternal punishment” he is FLATLY admitting that the reprobates are damned from the very start, without having done nothing to deserve Reprobation in the first place (because as i said, if the predestined are predestined ante praevisa merita then it’s obvious that also the reprobates are reprobated ante praevisa demerita, that is, before foreseen demerits. Doomed from the start, as i said The Providence of God: Deus habet consilium - Google Libri )

Sure, the punishment is inflicted only after they die in mortal sin, but once again, there is no way they can avoid this fate since they are deserted by the Grace they need to avoid death in mortal sin. And why they are be deserted by Grace? Because God wills it and he isn’t willing to help them with what they truly need.

That’s why Aquinas said that Reprobation is the cause of damnation while it’s not strictly the cause of their sin (free will is the cause of sin, but then again we return to the original point: given our fallen human nature, man, according to the thomists, absolutely needs the special efficacious Grace to freely cooperate with God).

 

[Techno2000]

“But Jesus, who in this vision informed me of all that is needed by me, answered with these words and said: ‘It was necessary that there should be sin; but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.’-St Julian of Norwich

 

[Techno2000]

I can tell you about the different degrees of Purgatory because I have passed through them. In the great Purgatory there are several stages. In the lowest and most painful, like a temporary hell, are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life. For such souls, Purgatory is terrible. It is a real hell with this difference, that in hell they curse God, whereas we bless Him and thank Him for having saved us.

St. Faustina had also one daily prayer that she never missed which was, “O Jesus inspire people to pray for the dying”. St. Faustina said that by prayer, “God’s mercy can touch the sinner even at the last moment, in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything is lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, can turn to God even in the last moment, with such a power of love that in an instant, it receives from God, forgiveness of all sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things”. (Diary 1698)

Dante’s Purgatorio
The Unshriven: Violent Deaths

We are all souls who met a violent death,
and we were sinners to our final hour;
but then the light of Heaven lit our minds,

and penitent and pardoning, we left
that life at peace with God, Who left our hearts
with longing for the holy sight of Him.”

 

[Robert1111]

@ Vico

And about this part

because sufficient Grace is nothing but a mere potency that ABSOLUTELY needs God’s further intervention to pass from potency to act.

You said that i wasn’t talking about Aquinas, but it’s all in his teaching. He believes that the reprobates are deserted by Grace, i.e they don’t receive what they need to reach eternal happiness and avoid eternal damnation.

Also, if you read this Fr. Hardon Archives - History and Theology of Grace - Analysis of Efficacious Grace you will see that i was correct when i said “ sufficient Grace is nothing but a mere potency that absolutely needs God’s further intervention to pass from potency to act”.

• The Thomistic explanation of how grace and free will are reconciled begins with the premise that God has eternally predetermined that some people should be saved, and to realize this aim confers effective (efficacious) graces on these elect. He therefore physically affects their free wills, and thus secures that they decide freely to cooperate with His grace. There is an inner power in efficacious grace which infallibly insures that the predestined freely consent to perform such salutary actions as will merit heaven. Consequently efficacious grace is essentially different from merely sufficient grace, which confers the power or ability to place salutary acts, but no more. BEFORE THIS BARE POTENCY CAN BE REDUCED TO ACTION, ANOTHER AND DIFFERENT DIVINE HELP MUST BE RECEIVED, NAMELY EFFICACIOUS GRACE . Since God has eternally willed the free consent of His chosen ones to the efficacious graces He confers, He thus ineluctably brings about the salvation of those who are included in His loving decree. All the rest who do not come within the ambit of this election are permitted, through the abuse of their freedom, not to attain heaven. The divine motive for this negative reprobation is that God willed to manifest His goodness not only by means of His mercy, but also by means of His justice.

Seen? Exactly what i said. And that’s precisely why the classical thomustic understanding of Grace and Salvation is horrendous and very offensive to God, turning him into a ruthless monster.

 

[MT1926]

But why double standards? Does it seem even remotely fair that can i be a new Peter Scully and go to Heaven while this kid gets burned in Hell forever? I mean, come on.

If you saw a judge giving grace to a serial murderer and jailing for life a “simple” robber what would you think?

Of course I would jump to the conclusion, like most people would that our judge is unjust.

However, like I already said God doesn’t just judge the evidence we see He can also judge the heart.

I have an example that si think fits. Let’s make you the judge who can see not only the evidence of the case but also knows the state of the defendants heart.

In the one court room you have Peter who murdered 2 of your children. You know he is guilty but you also know he is repentant and the state of his heart shows you he would never ever be able to harm anyone ever again.

Now in court room 2 you have the kid who slept with your daughter, spent the ride home thinking about sleeping with her sister and you know the state of his heart is to sleep with as many of your daughters as possible.

Which one of these two men are you going to invite to live in your home?

It all comes down to the heart which only a God can judge.

Yeah of course, just like someone has a say in the matter before he commits a robbery, doesn’t mean that him being sentenced to life sentence without parole while a serial murderer gets away with it scott free would be fair.

I think this is one reason why I am such a big fan of Purgatory. God sends the truly repentant souls there and that’s where He makes it fair. The words Scott free don’t even enter my mind when I think about Pirgatory.

Have you ever traveled to Italy? I’m sure you’d love it.

Yep been there twice. Dads home town of Terni has the best pizza in the world. The two times, when I was 12 and again 40, we traveled every day. Told dad if we go next year I only plan on staying at Uncles House. So I can walk into town every morning for espresso and a pastry sit and relax then grab a couple pieces of pizza for lunch and walk back.

No traveling next time it’s too tiring.

God Bless

 

[Robert1111]

In the one court room you have Peter who murdered 2 of your children. You know he is guilty but you also know he is repentant and the state of his heart shows you he would never ever be able to harm anyone ever again.

Now in court room 2 you have the kid who slept with your daughter, spent the ride home thinking about sleeping with her sister and you know the state of his heart is to sleep with as many of your daughters as possible.

Sleeping with my daughter is in no way comparable to killing two of my children, at least to me. You are not talking about rape, here.

Quite frankly, i don’t how i would react if someone killed two of my children and then he repented. Maybe i would forgive him but i doubt that i would want to hang out with him, to put it mildly.

 

[fhansen]

Not according to the predestinarians. According to them, sufficient Grace only makes you accountable for your sin, but you aren’t actually able to freely say yes to God’s call. According to them sufficient Grace is a mere potency that absolutely needs God further intervention to pass from potency to act. In other words, this “Grace” only makes you accountable for your sin but it is absolutely powerless to save you.

Well, it’d be pretty ridiculous to be held accountable for one’s sins if it’s impossible for them to do otherwise, impossible to say “yes” IOW.

 

[Robert1111]

I think this is one reason why I am such a big fan of Purgatory. God sends the truly repentant souls there and that’s where He makes it fair. The words Scott free don’t even enter my mind when I think about Pirgatory.

Robert1111:

When you compare Purgatory to Hell, it’s most definitely Scott free. Yeah, i also think that Purgatory solves a lot of problems and i believe that God sends to Hell only the truly irredeemable.

Yep been there twice. Dads home town of Terni has the best pizza in the world. The two times, when I was 12 and again 40, we traveled every day. Told dad if we go next year I only plan on staying at Uncles House. So I can walk into town every morning for espresso and a pastry sit and relax then grab a couple pieces of pizza for lunch and walk back.

No traveling next time it’s too tiring.

There is much to see in Italy that it’s a great pity that you will not travel here anymore.

 

[Vico]

…

No St. Thomas Aquinas taught contrary to double predestination of Calvin. St. Thomas wrote regarding the reprobated “this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility” to obtain grace.

It is right there in Question 23 - Predestination, A3. The causality differs between the two cases of:

• Reprobation of the rejected. Reprobation does not cause anything presently – it is not the cause of sin which is really from the free will of the reprobate.
• Predestination of the predestined. Pedestination causes the future gift of glory and the present gift of grace.

Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 23 Predestination > Article 3. Whether God reprobates any man?​

Reply to Objection 3. Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said that the reprobated cannot obtain grace, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above (I:19:3), that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.

 

[Robert1111]

No St. Thomas Aquinas taught contrary to double predestination of Calvin.

In theory. In practice, they are exactly the same. I repeat, according to Thomas God reprobates ante praevisa demerita (The Providence of God: Deus habet consilium - Google Libri ) and Reprobation, according to his own words, is the cause of damnation (i quote him when he said that reprobation “ is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future—namely, eternal punishment” from Summa Theologiae; First Part; Question 23 Predestination; Article 3. Whether God reprobates any man? ). There is really no getting around it, sorry. Sure, he doesn’t directly CAUSE the sin (that’s what Calvin taught) he just gently makes sure that the reprobate will unavoidably fall into sin by refusing to give him the efficacious Grace he absolutely needs.

Just like making sure that your child will burn himself with fire while not directly burn him with fire yourself. You just take care that he will be attracted by fire and that he will not have the necessary protection.

As i said, Calvinism is a pig, classical Thomism is a pig with lipstick. The lipstick doesn’t change the fact they are both pigs.

And let me tell that it’s quite amusing that you quote Thomas when he says exactly what i’m saying.

Let me quote him from your same quote

Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will.

Now, the reprobate cannot acquire Grace. And this is exactly why he will unavoidably die in mortal sin. Sure, that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will, but he would have absolutely needed efficacious Grace to avoid the sin and most importantly to die in the State of Grace.

And guess what? He has been deserted by Grace. Why? Because he is a reprobate and God doesn’t give two figs about his salvation.

Feel free to believe in this monster if you wish, i’d rather worship Satan himself to be honest. That’s why i don’t believe that this kind of “””””””god””””” has anything to do with our Lord.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

No St. Thomas Aquinas taught contrary to double predestination of Calvin.

In theory. In practice, they are exactly the same. I repeat, according to Thomas God reprobates ante praevisa demerita and Reprobation, according to his own words, is th cause of damnation. There is really no getting around it, sorry. Sure, he doesn’t directly CAUSE the sin (that’s what Calvin taught) he just gently makes sure that the reprobate will unavoidably fall into sin by refusing to give him the efficacious Grace he absolutely needs.

As i said, Calvinism is a pig, classical Thomism is a pig with lipstick. The lipstick doesn’t change the fact they are pigs.

But you are misrepresenting what Aquinas wrote for he did say God is not the cause of the reprobates sin and God is not responsible for that sin. It is a great difference with Calvinism. Enough so that there is a dogma of faith pertaining to it to counter what Calvin taught.

Council of Trent, Session VI, Canon XVII: If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm

 

[Robert1111]

But you are misrepresenting what Aquinas wrote for he did say God is not the cause of the reprobates sin and God is not responsible for that sin. It is a great difference with Calvinism. Enough so that there is a dogma of faith pertaining to it to counter what Calvin taught.

For the upteenth time, i never said that God is the cause of sin. He simply refuses to bless the reprobate with the graces he absolutely needs to avoid sin and punishment. I have already written this, exactly in the post you quoted, when i said

“he doesn’t directly CAUSE the sin (that’s what Calvin taught) he just gently makes sure that the reprobate will unavoidably fall into sin by refusing to give him the efficacious Grace he absolutely needs”.

And i’m not misrepresent anything Fr. Hardon Archives - History and Theology of Grace - Analysis of Efficacious Grace

• The Thomistic explanation of how grace and free will are reconciled begins with the premise that God has eternally predetermined that some people should be saved, and to realize this aim confers effective (efficacious) graces on these elect. He therefore physically affects their free wills, and thus secures that they decide freely to cooperate with His grace. There is an inner power in efficacious grace which infallibly insures that the predestined freely consent to perform such salutary actions as will merit heaven. Consequently efficacious grace is essentially different from merely sufficient grace, which confers the power or ability to place salutary acts, but no more. BEFORE THIS BARE POTENCY CAN BE REDUCED TO ACTION, ANOTHER AND DIFFERENT DIVINE HELP MUST BE RECEIVED, NAMELY EFFICACIOUS GRACE . Since God has eternally willed the free consent of His chosen ones to the efficacious graces He confers, He thus ineluctably brings about the salvation of those who are included in His loving decree. All the rest who do not come within the ambit of this election are permitted, through the abuse of their freedom, not to attain heaven. The divine motive for this negative reprobation is that God willed to manifest His goodness not only by means of His mercy, but also by means of His justice.

Without efficacious Grace, no cooperation can occur. And he gives that kind of Grace only to the elect, all the others, the reprobates, are left in the dust, since they cannot possibly cooperate with mere sufficient Grace (“sufficient grace confers the power or ability to place salutary acts, but no more. BEFORE THIS BARE POTENCY CAN BE REDUCED TO ACTION, ANOTHER AND DIFFERENT DIVINE HELP MUST BE RECEIVED, NAMELY EFFICACIOUS GRACE”.

 

[Robert1111]

Well, it’d be pretty ridiculous to be held accountable for one’s sins if it’s impossible for them to do otherwise, impossible to say “yes” IOW.

This

• you absolutely need to walk towards me otherwise i will not save you, but you will NOT actually be able to walk towards me unless i untie your strings. And guess what, poor slob? I will NOT untie your strings and i will also blame you and punish you because, since i haven’t untied your strings, you have not walked towards me

Is the predestinarian “””””””””god”””””” in a nutshell. A textbook case of malignant sadistic psychopathy.

 

[fhansen]

Is the predestinarian “””””””””god”””””” in a nutshell. A textbook case of malignant sadistic psychopathy.

Ah, yes, but you forget that I, God, am SOVEREIGN-plus bigger’n and smater’n you-and that, my little creaturely friend, makes it just A-OK.

 

[Robert1111]

Ah, yes, but you forget that I, God, am SOVEREIGN-plus bigger’n and smater’n you-and that, my little creaturely friend, makes it just A-OK.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.