Mortal sin, death, repentance and salvation

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I love him because the love I have for him first came to me from him, which is encouraging, because on my own I could never be enough. And every response I have to him is him giving me each response to have. It’s cooperation, but he is always leading, which is appropriate for a shepherd.
 
I love him because the love I have for him first came to me from him, which is encouraging, because on my own I could never be enough. And every response I have to him is him giving me each response to have. It’s cooperation, but he is always leading, which is appropriate for a shepherd.
It’s true that nobody would be able to love God without his Grace preceeding our works. That’s absolutely true.

But the problems is when someone says that you need intrinsically efficacious Grace to love him, resist temptation and repent, and he gives this Grace, expecially the Grace of final repentance (since even the reprobates, according to the thomists, follow the commandments and be in the state of Grace for some time but they are guaranteed to die in mortal sin), only to the elect.

This God would not be a loving God. And the entire teaching of the Church “Jesus died for YOU” would be a pathetic facade. I think i have already explained why.
 
Saint Faustina said

“God’s mercy can touch the sinner even at the last moment, in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything is lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, can turn to God even in the last moment, with such a power of love that in an instant, it receives from God, forgiveness of all sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things”. (Diary 1698)

While that lost soul said

“The day was radiant and beautiful. I felt well and at ease, as I rarely did. An ominous presentiment, however, came over me as we drove. On the way home that evening my husband and I were unexpectedly blinded by the lights of a car rapidly approaching from the opposite direction. My husband lost control of our car.

“Jesus!” I shouted, not as a prayer, but as a scream. I felt a crushing pain – a trifle in comparison with my present torment. Then I lost consciousness. How strange! On that very morning, the idea had come to me unexpectedly that I could, after all, go to Mass again. It entered my mind almost like a supplication. My “No!” – strong and determined – nipped the thought in the bud. I must finish with this once and for all, I thought, and I assumed all the consequences. And now I endure them.

At the moment of my death I awoke from a darkness. I found myself suddenly enveloped by a blinding light. It was at the same place where my body lay. It seemed almost like a theater, when the lights suddenly go out, the curtain noisily opens, and a tragically illuminated scene appears: the scene of my life. I saw my soul as in a mirror. I saw the graces I had trampled underfoot from the time I was young until that final “No!” given to God. I felt like an assassin brought to trial before its inanimate victim. Repent? Never! Did I feel shame for my actions? Not at all!

Notwithstanding, it was impossible for me to remain in the presence of the God I had denied and rejected. Only one thing remained for me: flight. Thus, just as Cain fled from the body of Abel, so my soul sought to flee far from this terrible sight.

That was my private judgment. The invisible Judge spoke: “Depart from Me!” and my soul swiftly fell, like a sulfurous shadow, into the place of eternal torment! “

She basically outlined the exact same problem about death i have criticized in this topic, with the car crash and her sudden death in mortal sin. I have read about this alleged girl and while not being a Saint by any means, she was also much better than many other monsters i have heard coming to repentance.

That alleged letter has many of the problems i have addressed here, and if taken at face value it would be hard to justify that letter when we read this How the Commandant of Auschwitz Found God's Mercy or this The Amazing Deathbed Conversion of Oscar Wilde | or

We return to the problem of the “cosmic game” since i can hardly believe that the girl of the letter was more hardened than a Nazi responsible for the death of literally millions of innocents.
 
@ Techno2000

And i simply cannot bring myself to accept the semi-Calvinistic understanding about this matter. I can’t because i simply don’t that such a God exists and the approved revelations of the Saints show a very compassionate and merciful Jesus. I think that the letter has been written to scare sinners away from their sins, which is commendable in and of itself, but i wouldn’t regard it as a true supernatural revelation.
 

I like to have Vico your view on the weaknesses I pointed out in the Thomistic and in the Molinistic predestination/ salvation.

God bless
Conversion and meritorious thoughts and acts are through actual grace which involves strengthening of the will both proceeding and concurring and there is also an actual grace illuminating the intellect that may be given. Of the two actual graces mentioned earlier: Sufficient grace gives a person the power to accomplish the salutary act, and efficacious grace, in fact, secures that the salutary act is accomplished. When a person’s free will choice is not to cooperate with the actual grace then that actual grace is not efficacious but merely sufficient. The Holy Trinity is not the cause of failure. A person not in a state of sanctifying grace can do morally good works (although not meritorious) through free will even without actual grace or the grace of faith.

Two dogmas of faith (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, p. 246, 247) are:
  • The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)
  • There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
 
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Now what makes you think that Justice in its application is evil? It is gloriously good. The problem here is you are perceiving as innocent and undeserving that which is actually guilty and truly deserving.
I repeat, a God that asks me to give birth to children only to damn them forever without giving to them an actual chance at salvation would be unworthy of worship.
 
@Vico

But according to molinism, the invididual can actually cooperate with sufficient Grace, he has the real power to cooperate, he doesn’t need efficacious Grace first. According to molinism, it’s the individual who chooses to cooperate and accept Grace who makes Grace efficacious. That makes much more sense because it means that God gives to everyone what is really needed and necessary for salvation, even though some refuse it.
 
Also, molinism makes much more sense for many other reasons. Let’s take another look at our Lord’s words to Saint Faustina

“ “How very much I desire the salvation of souls! My dearest secretary, write that I want to pour out My divine life into human souls and sanctify them, if only they were willing to accept My grace. The greatest sinners would achieve great sanctity, if only they would trust in My mercy. The very inner depths of My being are filled to overflowing with mercy, and it is being poured out upon all I have created. My delight is to act in a human soul and to fill it with My mercy (133) and to justify it. My kingdom on earth is My life in the human soul” (Diary, 1784)

Again, under classical thomism these words make no sense whatsoever. They make no sense because Jesus would know that the souls who don’t cooperate WOULD cooperate if he were to give them efficacious Grace, and he also knows that there is no way, it is literally impossible, for them to cooperate with sufficient Grace alone. So in this case saying “The greatest sinners would achieve great sanctity, if only they would trust in My mercy” is tantamount to saying to someone who is chained with titanium ropes “oh, how much i wish to save you. If only you unchain yourself and walk towards me, i will embrace you like my tender child. Plot twist: you cannot unchain yourself, i’m the only one who can give you the strenght to do it. And… whelp… i won’t bwahahahahahaha”.

See what i mean? It just makes no sense. I understand the part about us not being able to understand God’s plan in its entirety, but this would be sheer and utter absurdity. God doesn’t ask me to believe that 2+2 = 77.
 
@ Vico

And now the final nail in the coffin from Jesus himself

“ “My Heart overflows with great mercy for souls, and especially for poor sinners. If only they could understand that I am the best of Fathers to them and that it is for them that the Blood and Water flowed from My Heart as from a fount overflowing with mercy. For them I dwell in the tabernacle as King of Mercy. I desire to bestow My graces upon souls, but they do not want to accept them. You, at least, come to Me as often as possible and take these graces they do not want to accept. In this way you will console My Heart…” (Diary, 367).

How hypocritical would be to say “If only they could understand that I am the best of Fathers to them and that it is for them that the Blood and Water flowed from My Heart as from a fount overflowing with mercy” when this “best of fathers”, according to the thomists, creates some of his children for the only purpose of allowing their damnation by withholding what is absolutely necessary for them to reach their eternal happiness?

How hypocritical would be to say “ I desire to bestow My graces upon souls, but they do not want to accept them” when, if thomism were true, he would know perfectly well that they don’t cooperate because he didn’t give them what is absolutely necessary for them to cooperate in the first place (i.e efficacious Grace) and that nobody, not even Padre Pio, would cooperate with sufficient Grace while everybody, even someone as bad as Peter Scully, cooperates with efficacious Grace (since it’s necessary for salvation and infallible. The thomism call this Grace “intrinsically” efficacious because it never fails to bring sinners to repentance)?

That’s why i think that the predestinarians got it completely wrong. And yes, I fully believe that classical thomism and Calvinism are basically the same. Sure, they aren’t the same in the strictly theological sense but it’s like confronting a pig with lipstick with a pick without lipstick. They are both pigs at the end of the day. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn’t change reality.
 
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Techno2000:
I already knew that story and it perplexed me. It doesn’t seem very compatible with Saint Faustina and other approved private revelations.
"Prayer is the first step towards God. And it is the decisive step. Especially prayer to her who is the Mother of Christ, whose name we never pronounce. Devotion to her rescues from the devil numberless souls whom sin would infallibly give to him."
 
We return to the problem of the “cosmic game” since i can hardly believe that the girl of the letter was more hardened than a Nazi responsible for the death of literally millions of innocents.
You get what you deserve in the afterlife…good or bad.The Nazi would go to a lower level of hell, and suffer more than the girl.
 
About the prayers part, of course, but the thing is that the predestinarians believe that you don’t even pray unless God gives you efficacious Grace to make you pray. It’s a vicious circle.

And still, the part about prayer, while true, still doesn’t explain some things: there are people who never pray during their entire life and yet they have a deathbed conversion like Oscar Wilde.

Not to mention the Good Thief. My belief is that God gives to everyone the choice between being the good thief or the bad thief.

This is also what Saint Faustina and Padre Pio said.

I quote Padre Pio

“ “I believe that not a great number of souls go to hell. God loves us so much. He formed us at his image. God loves us beyond understanding. And it is my belief that when we have passed from the consciousness of the world, when we appear to be dead, God, before He judges us, will give us a chance to see and understand what sin really is. And if we understand it properly, how could we fail to repent?”
 
@Vico

When i wrote
That’s not the point. I’m talking about a Nazi who goes to Heaven.
I was talking about the commandant of Auschwitz, where millions of Jews were slaughtered for the sole reasons they were Jews How the Commandant of Auschwitz Found God's Mercy

If anyone wants to tell me that Rudolf Höss was more deserving of salvation than the aforementioned girl, well… Just tell me that. 😉

At least i will know that the way we live our lives doesn’t count Jack squat and it all comes down to whether or not God wants your Salvation badly enough. If he doesn’t you will go to Hell even if you somewhat strive to be a good person, because i will die in mortal sin either way, so why bother?
 
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Techno2000:
That’s not the point. I’m talking about a Nazi who goes to Heaven.
Ok, you didnt say that,I suppose a Nazi could go to Heaven if they repent.The biggest sin in Hell is rejecting Jesus.According a private revelation I read, at the moment of death Jesus will bathe you in his love.Some souls can’t accept this love, because they only love themselves.At the moment that they pull away for his love they are in Hell… where there is no love.
 
Also, if that were true, we would have to be true nutcases to even think about making children. What if they aren’t loved enough by God and God wants me to have them so that they will suffer in Hell for all eternity while a coked out drug addict who killed his entire family will shed hot tears while God’s Mercy tenderly embraces him, because, you know, he was part of the elect?

Nope. So much nope.
 
Ok, you didnt say that,I suppose a Nazi could go to Heaven if they repent.
Of course, everyone can go to Heaven if he repents. I have no objections against that. I would have no problems if i discovered that Nero or even Juda is saved, really. That was never my problem, i wish salvation to all, my problem is the double standard.
According a private revelation I read, at the moment of death Jesus will bathe you in his love
That’s what i was talking about. But if this is true (and i believe it is) this happens before real death (the separation of the soul from the body) because after death it’s metaphysically impossible to repent. If you die in mortal sin, you are done for. So this needs to happen before death, according to the infallible Church teaching.
Some souls can’t accept this love, because they only love themselves.At the moment that they pull away for his love they are in Hell… where there is no love.
Well, of course, if someone is that hardened he will go to Hell, and maybe even people who didn’t commit horrifying mortal sins can harden themselves to the point they are beyond salvation. I have no objections against that. I have objections against the idea that God doesn’t give to everyone a real, true, fair chance and that some people simple “happen” to die in mortal sin.

I don’t believe this, and i also find this idea really offensive to God.
 
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