Mortal Sin - Sin One Time to Condemnation?

[Church_Militant]

I have seen many of the Catholic Faith purport that you can sin one time and go to hell.

Why would this bother you since I have seen and heard many many n-Cs preach that a single sin will send one to hell.

I guess, to some n-Cs all sin is mortal is it not?

Of course that isn’t scriptural now is it?

1st John 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Why would this bother you since I have seen and heard many many n-Cs preach that a single sin will send one to hell.

I guess, to some n-Cs all sin is mortal is it not?

Of course that isn’t scriptural now is it?

1st John 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

Context context context…

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:16-18 KJV)

Mortal sin…“sin leading unto death” does not touch the born again. And please do not ask me if I never sin! There is sin not leading to death…and 1 John 1 says that everybody sins…and…

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1 KJV)

 

[Cling2Cross]

We then see passages such as…

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:3 KJV)

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4 KJV)

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18 KJV)

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 KJV)

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (1 John 3:14 KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24 KJV)

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29 KJV)

Does it not seem to be outlining what a born-again believer does?

C2C

What do you make of each of these passages…?

 

[Ignatius]

You missed a very important point. It is unrepented sin that separates us from God. If we go around without repenting of our sins, we bring condemnation on ourselves, which is plain throughout the Bible. If we repent, God is merciful and sure to forgive us.

Also, from the way you write, I can tell that you are unaware of a couple of things. According to a recent poll, over half of the folks you are talking to here are former evangelical, nondenominational and other Protestants before discovering the Truth of the Catholic Church. A number of them were even Pastors. So they are fully aware of Protestant theology.

May the Lord watch over you and be gracious to you.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[mikeledes]

We then see passages such as…

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:3 KJV)

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4 KJV)

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18 KJV)

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 KJV)

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (1 John 3:14 KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24 KJV)

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29 KJV)

Does it not seem to be outlining what a born-again believer does?

C2C

What do you make of each of these passages…?

All promises regarding salvation are for those who are and abide (i.e. continue, remain) in Christ.

Regarding the passages in 1 John, the purpose of the stark contrast is to emphasize the duties/ obligations of those who are born of God and the logical contradiction between having fellowship with Him and sin. Sin - whether unto death or not - is by it’s very nature an “anti-God” act, a violation of His moral law. So John is trying to expose how illogical it is for someone to be of God and commit an anti-God act and by doing so, he is exhorting Christians to avoid sin. However, we cannot have an overly literal interpretation of these passages. For example, in 2 John 9 states:

**9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. **

If we interpret this verse the same way Calvinists interpret similar passages in 1 John, then we have to say that whoever does not abide in the teaching of Christ does was never of God. But what do we do about the following case:

Galatians 1:6

**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; **

Paul is amazed at how genuine Christians have turned away from God by abandoning the true gospel for a false one. They have not abided in the teaching of Christ. Does this mean that they never were of God? That would be the logical conclusion if we give 2 John a Calvinist interpretation and apply it to the Galatians. However, Galatians 1:6 contradicts that.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What do you make of each of these passages…?

Also, you must read them withing the general context of Scripture. The following passages qualify these passages:

Galatians 5:2-4 (Compare with Galatians 1:6)

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Romans 11:20-22

**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

1 Corinthians 8:9-13

9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

James 5:19-20

19My brethren,if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Hebrews 4:11

**11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. **

Revelation 22:19

**19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

And also we have:

Calvinists argue that not only can a one-time sin cost you your salvation, but that genuine Christians can never fall into a sinful “lifestyle” that will result in spiritual death. The Bible says otherwise:

Ezekiel 18:24

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Now the first objection some might raise is that this is Old Testament. However, was the way of becoming righteous before God different in the Old Covenant. Was man, prior to the New Covenant, not justified by the grace of God? It is clear from Hebrews 11 that God’s grace was at work in both the Old and New Covenants to make man righteous. The means of salvation were the same, though *explicit * knowledge of Jesus did not exist prior to His incarnation.

The other objection is that the “righteous” involved are not really righteous before God. They are merely righteous before men or “legally” righteous. However, it is God who identifies the person as righteous in this passage. Moreover, there is another passage in Ezekiel that completely contradicts this interpretation:

Ezekiel 33:13

**13When I shall say **to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

The key phrase “he shall surely live.” God only says that in Ezekiel exclusively when:

1. He justifies/ forgives the repentant sinner:

Ezekiel 33:14-16 (Ezekiel 18:21)

14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

1. When he confirms that a person is righteous in His sight:

Ezekiel 18:5-9

5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Therefore, in Ezekiel 33:13 must be righteous in God’s sight because the verse clearly states that at one point God said to that person “he shall surely live”, which is only used in the above two circumstances. God would never say that if that person were not righteous in His sight.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

I have seen many of the Catholic Faith purport that you can sin one time and go to hell. That there are mortal sins…I am not sure what all of them are but, when discussing this, I see that lists - such as the one in 1 Corinthians 6/Galtians 5 are presented as evidence for mortal sin as described above. What I do not understand is that these people do not see that these “mortal sins” are actually lifestyles and not one-time events…let’s look at these passages…

Certainly there are sinful lifestyles. However, we cannot see that Judas was living one. He went about with the Apostles, was counted as one of the 12, and miracles were worked through him, just as by the others. It is reported that he stole money from the purse, but he was not living a “lifestyle of sin”. However, he committed a mortal sin, and would he be considered “saved”?

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NAS95)

I think it is essential to recall that these “lists” are ALL sent to believers. they are contained in epistles and documents specifically addressed to the “saints”. Christians can, and do, fall into sinful lifestyles.

These are names for people who “practice” these things…not do them one time. Continuing…

How does it make a difference if one does something that will permanently sever their relationship with Christ (like sell Him out for 30 pieces of silver) or does it 100 times?

So…doing one of these things one time and we go to hell…unless, confession is made to the priest?

This is the normative means through which God has ordained that the grace of forgiveness and healing should flow.

I would like to present another issue that really caught
my attention when mulling this over at one point in my life…we have another list in Reveleation…

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8 NAS95)

So…if we lie one time…we sin mortally? Is this a mortal sin?

I suppose this depends upon the gravity of the sin, but in this case, I think it is referring to persons who deny Christ in order to save their own skin.

Mortal sin is sinning unto death…a lifestyle. And Christians do not have these lifestyles (although the just man falls seven times but the Lord upholds him with his hands)…

There are two mistakes in here. One is that mortal sin cannot happen one time. Another is that Christians do not fall into a lifestyle of sin.

Christians will not fall into a lawless lifestyle of sin unto death. And there is not such a thing as sinning one time and being condemned if you have already had the pronouncement of “justified” over you by the merits of Christ…

This smacks of Calvanistic OSAS teaching (of men) and is not what was taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

The born-again are secure in Christ…and, generally speaking, keep short accounts with the Lord - their Father.

The verses you give are all important, and do address eternal security. However, you will still have to explain away other verses that show the opposite. Catholics take them all together, and don’t build salvation theology on a small subset of scripture, as Calvanitsts do.

 

[guanophore]

That’s not what Jesus says:Matthew 5:27-28

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Good point, Sandusky! Thinking about and imagining sins inevitably leads to acting sinfully.

You are of course dead wrong in your interpretation of this. If a lustful thought comes into my mind and I immediately reject it and (as I always do) turn my heart and thoughts to God, then not only have I not sinned (by entertaining and giving in to that temptation), but I have become that much stronger in response to the grace of God that aided me in that need.

Temptation is not sin (or else Jesus was a sinner just like us!).

Let’s don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, CM. I think Sandusky is right on with this one. The distinction is that Jesus is talking about “looking upon a woman with lust”. This is different than experiencing a tempation and resisting it. You are talking about temptations that we all experience, which are not considered sins, and he is givng an example of giving way to desire, that leads to sin.

 

[mikeledes]

Cling2Cross, I would also like to add the following verses. All three of them deal with the importance of subjecting one’s body to the direction of the Spirit and of perseverance:

Galatians 6:7-9

**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. **

Romans 8:12-13

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

Note that Paul is sayin this to those born of God (i.e. brethren, you). This is reaffirmed in 1 Corinthians 9:26-27, in which Paul specifically talks about himself, and I’m sure he believed he was born of God:

26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

The word translated here is “disqualified” or “castaway” in the KJV is adokimos, which in Greek means to fail the test, rejected, or reprobate.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/reprobate

God bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Furthermore, the difference between your temptations, and the temptations of Jesus, is that He remained, as the writer of Hebrews puts it, ”without sin,” the clear inference being that with respect to your temptations, you have not.

Thanks for the candid admission that yours is a system of works salvation.

I think the bigger difference, Sandusky, is that Jesus did not suffer concupiscensce, and therefore, did not experience inner temptations as persons born under the sin of Adam.Jesus has no desires contrary to the will of God, and therefore, can only be tempted externally.

I don’t think the clear inference there is necessarily that others have sinned, either, and I also think that it is improper to cast aspersions upon the character of other forum members.

It is even more improper to make slanderous accusations against the faith of Catholics, as you have done above.

 

[Genesis315]

I think the OP is forgetting major part of the doctrine of mortal sin–you only go to Hell if you refuse to repent of it. That right there means you are rebelling against the Holy Spirit’s urgings and you obstinately refuse the saving foriveness of Christ.

By willfully doing something that is gravely contrary to God’s love and then refuse to repent of it, we choose neither to abide in that love nor to freely return to it. And unless you abide in love, you shall not be saved.

 

[guanophore]

If you can’t engage in a discussion without insulting or questioning a person’s intelligence or attacking a person’s character, then you should not participate in this discussion. It is not becoming for anyone who claims to be Christian to engage in that kind of behavior. Insults contradicts love and the humble attitude we are supposed to have as Christians.

God bless,
Michael

I agree with you Michael, and I am personally quite offended by Sandusky’s formulation of Catholicism because I consider it a false witness. However, to some extent you brought that on yourself, because you laid into him immediately by saying “you are dead wrong”. This kind of language does not foster productive discussion either, and provokes defensiveness. Would it be possible for you is see it differently without the need to tell others they are wrong? I ask this because I usually post for the lurkers, and I think there are many that will benefit from this thread. I have small hope for Sandusky, having encountered his intractible hostility on other threads, but there are many who will respond to reasoning that will read.

Peace and Blessings brother.

 

[guanophore]

r

We then see passages such as…

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:3 KJV)

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4 KJV)

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18 KJV)

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 KJV)

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (1 John 3:14 KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24 KJV)

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29 KJV)

Does it not seem to be outlining what a born-again believer does?

C2C

What do you make of each of these passages…?

I agree with you, however, none of these takes away other passages that indicate that believers also fall from grace, and perish. I would like to see your response to some verses given above that address this point from Michael.

 

[mikeledes]

I agree with you Michael, and I am personally quite offended by Sandusky’s formulation of Catholicism because I consider it a false witness. However, to some extent you brought that on yourself, because you laid into him immediately by saying “you are dead wrong”. This kind of language does not foster productive discussion either, and provokes defensiveness. Would it be possible for you is see it differently without the need to tell others they are wrong? I ask this because I usually post for the lurkers, and I think there are many that will benefit from this thread. I have small hope for Sandusky, having encountered his intractible hostility on other threads, but there are many who will respond to reasoning that will read.

Peace and Blessings brother.

I don’t recall directing any post to him in which I said “you are dead wrong.” I think you may be confusing me with another Michael (i.e. Churchmilitant).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

I don’t recall directing any post to him in which I said “you are dead wrong.” I think you may be confusing with another Michael (i.e. Churchmilitant).

God Bless,
Michael

You are of course dead wrong in your interpretation of this.

You are right, of course, my bad. I left out the quote to the post I was referring to. I was thinking that Church Militant was using unnecessarily aggressive militant tactics. I appreciate your efforts to bring peace to the thread.

 

[Cling2Cross]

I guess I would say the same to you, Mikeledes…you need to read these passages in the general context of scripture…the passages in 1 John are very clear and succint statements…we know that there are those who are outwardly responding to the gospel of God…in church, hearing the gospel over and over…in the case of the Hebrews they were seeing miracles and partaking in the other activities of the church…but they were exhorted…

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12 KJV)

We know that the gospel brings in good and bad fish…

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:47-50 NAS95)

…and are those who hear the gospel but are never born again…they either fall away or the cares and riches of this life choke it to become unfruitful…these two from the parables of the soils do not line up with those who are born of God in 1 John…for those that are born of God overcome the world…

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. (1 John 5:4 NAS95)

and cannot not fall away into sin…

We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18 NAS95)

Also would we say that people are born again…children of God…married to Christ (Romans 7:4)…beloved of God…acceptied in the beloved…etc…??? but then Christ will say…???

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

Why would he not say that I knew you but you then turned away from me…theer are people who are outwardly associated but inwardly non-regenerate. Many come to the point of salvation but never cross over…

Do the non-elect receive the same call as the elect??? They must to be justified. Yet if you read Romans 8 carefully in this context, it certainly does not sound logical at all…passages that you say are only for the elect…

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). What you say is that this is an empty statement that may or may not be true…But indeed we are told that those that are in Christ will endure to the end…this is an evidence of salvation…

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, (Hebrews 3:14 NAS95)

Passages throughout scripture that show what people who are in Christ do…do not match up to those passages that show people falling away into sin…it simply does not make sense…1 John is full of these statements…there are others elesewhere…

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24 NAS95)

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:14 NAS95)

If they have the Spirit…they are in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit and not by the flesh…they are the sons of God and will persevere…the others did not hear the word properly…

“So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.” (Luke 8:18 NAS95)

We are told that there are wheat and tares…wheat are the real thing and tares are those weeds **that look like wheat **for a while…but then it is realized later that they do not have the root below the surface…the seed. And they bear no fruit.

 

[Church_Militant]

Context context context…

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not

. (1 John 5:16-18 KJV)

Mortal sin…“sin leading unto death” does not touch the born again. And please do not ask me if I never sin! There is sin not leading to death…and 1 John 1 says that everybody sins…and…

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1 KJV)Yet, this is not what the Word of God is actually saying. It speaks of “a brother” which means a believer, and unlike your assertion (unscriptural BTW) that mortal sin does not touch the believer, it does indeed speak of a brother committing a mortal sin.

You may hold to OSAS, but that too is unscriptural and so complicates your position.

All teh n-Cs that I ever went to church with have long taught one only needs a single sin to go to hell.

 

[Zooey]

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24 NAS95)

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:14 NAS95)

If they have the Spirit…they are in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit and not by the flesh…they are the sons of God and will persevere…the others did not hear the word properly…

“So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.” (Luke 8:18 NAS95)

We are told that there are wheat and tares…wheat are the real thing and tares are those weeds **that look like wheat **for a while…but then it is realized later that they do not have the root below the surface…the seed. And they bear no fruit.

Now wait just a cotton picking minute there, yean… How does anyone dare to be so judgmental as to say, that a person who has been a faithful Christian for years on end, and then sins… .How dare anyone say, “Oh, he was never a real Christian anyway; Christians don’t sin”.
That’s a sin in and of itself!! None of us have the right to say such things!! None of us!! Shame on you, for standing in judgment on your brothers & sisters in Christ that way, when you should be (and could be) praying for them to repent & be restored!!!

 

[guanophore]

…the passages in 1 John are very clear and succint statements…we know that there are those who are outwardly responding to the gospel of God…in church, hearing the gospel over and over…

I John is written to believers. When one looks at the salutation, there is no getting around this.

in the case of the Hebrews they were seeing miracles and partaking in the other activities of the church…but they were exhorted…

No, Hebrews is not talking about “activities of the church”. Hebrews is talking about sacraments - baptism, confirmation, and communion. These “partakers” were considered part of the Body. One “tastes of the heavenly gift” by taking the Body and Blood of the Lord. Only believers are admitted.

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12 KJV)

We know that the gospel brings in good and bad fish…

How can you “depart” from someplace you never came? On the contrary, these people came to the Living Stone, then rejected Him.

…and are those who hear the gospel but are never born again…they either fall away or the cares and riches of this life choke it to become unfruitful…these two from the parables of the soils do not line up with those who are born of God in 1 John…for those that are born of God overcome the world…

Yes, there are those that hear the gospel but are never born again. Yet most do “sprout”. The Kingdom is born within them, then they fall away, or are choked out.

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. (1 John 5:4 NAS95)

and cannot not fall away into sin…

John clearly states that one can fall away into sin. He is the one who defines mortal sin!

Also would we say that people are born again…children of God…married to Christ (Romans 7:4)…beloved of God…acceptied in the beloved…etc…??? but then Christ will say…???

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

This just demonstrates the point that people can be born again, joined to Christ, and then fall from grace.

Why would he not say that I knew you but you then turned away from me…theer are people who are outwardly associated but inwardly non-regenerate. Many come to the point of salvation but never cross over…

Yes, there are some that go through the motions but never really give their lives to Christ. there are also those that do give their lives, then are cut off from unbelief. Those who do not persist until the end will not be saved.

Do the non-elect receive the same call as the elect??? They must to be justified. Yet if you read Romans 8 carefully in this context, it certainly does not sound logical at all…passages that you say are only for the elect…

All are called to salvation. Not all respond. Those who respond to the Call are chosen by God. Those who cling to their calling are elected to eternal life.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). What you say is that this is an empty statement that may or may not be true…But indeed we are told that those that are in Christ will endure to the end…this is an evidence of salvation…

I am not sure what the empty statement is that you are talking about here. I agree,though, those that endure to the end show the evidence of salvation.

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, (Hebrews 3:14 NAS95)

Passages throughout scripture that show what people who are in Christ do…do not match up to those passages that show people falling away into sin…it simply does not make sense…1 John is full of these statements…there are others elesewhere…

Just as there are statements elsewhere that indicate one can fall away from grace.

We are told that there are wheat and tares…wheat are the real thing and tares are those weeds **that look like wheat **for a while…but then it is realized later that they do not have the root below the surface…the seed. And they bear no fruit.

There are indeed tares, and there are fruit bearing christians that do not persevere in faith, reject the grace in which they were sealed, and fall. God does not take away free will.