Mortal Sin - Sin One Time to Condemnation?

[guanophore]

Now wait just a cotton picking minute there, yean… How does anyone dare to be so judgmental as to say, that a person who has been a faithful Christian for years on end, and then sins… .How dare anyone say, “Oh, he was never a real Christian anyway; Christians don’t sin”.
That’s a sin in and of itself!! None of us have the right to say such things!! None of us!! Shame on you, for standing in judgment on your brothers & sisters in Christ that way, when you should be (and could be) praying for them to repent & be restored!!!

Thanks for dropping in on the thread, Zooey, and for these refreshing words of wisdom. Well said!

 

[mikeledes]

I guess I would say the same to you, Mikeledes…you need to read these passages in the general context of scripture…the passages in 1 John are very clear and succint statements…we know that there are those who are outwardly responding to the gospel of God…in church, hearing the gospel over and over…in the case of the Hebrews they were seeing miracles and partaking in the other activities of the church…but they were exhorted…

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12 KJV).

And the first thing we need to do is to look at this verse withing it’s immediate context and the general context
of Hebrews.

Hebrews 3:1, 12-13 (KJV)

**1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; …**12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NASB)

**12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. **

To whom does the author of Hebrews address this warning? To “brethren”, namely, those born of God. Those who are partakers of “the heavenly calling.” What he is saying is not that there are among them people that have an unbelieving heart. Rather, what he is saying is that they must be careful (i.e. take heed) that their heart does not become an unbelieving heart that falls away from God and this is demonstrated by the immediate verse that follows. He exhorts them to encourage one another every day SO THAT their hearts will not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and thus become an unbelieving heart. This interpretation is supported by other passages in Hebrews:

Hebrews 4:11 (KJV)

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:11(NASB)

11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 2:1-3

** 1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?**

In the above passages, the inspired author includes himself (i.e. “we”, “us”.) All of this is an exhortation to perseverance to those who are already born of God (brethren, we, etc.) and points to the serious possibilty of genuine Christians “falling away” if they are not careful. Now let’s look at Hebrews 3 again:

12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If we take Hebrews 3:14 within its context, it is not saying that all genuine Christians will persevere. Rather, after warning about the possibility of developing an unbelieving heart through the deceitfulness of sin, the author of Hebrews wants to emphasize that only those who persevere are and will continue to be partakers of Christ if they hold fast to the end. This intepretation is not only supported by other passages in Hebrews, but also also other passages in the Bible as well:

1 John 2:24 (KJV)

24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

We also have a clear example in the Bible of genuine Christians turning away from GOD for a false gospel and the result is FALL FROM GRACE and being SEVERED FROM CHRIST:

Galatians 1:6

6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Galatians 5:2-4

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

A person who was turned away from God, in who Christ will be of not benefit, who has been severed from Christ, and has fallen from grace has ceased being a partaker of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The problem with the verses in 1 John, Cling2Cross, is that they are not as clear as you think. Any interpretation of these verses involve a qualifier that is not explcitly found in the text.

The verses in question say that those “born of God cannot sin.” It does not say “cannot mortally sin” or “cannot habitually sin.” It clearly states, they cannot sin. There are no adverbs or adjectives involved. If we take it at face value, these verses seem to state that genuine Christians can never sin. But we know from other passages and personal experience that this is not the case. Similarly, we know from other passages in the Bible that those “born of God” can commit grievous sin (i.e. turning away from God for a false gospel, idolatry, etc.)

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Fundamentally, a mortal sin results in a fall from grace and the serious danger of eternal damnation if one remains and dies in that state. That genuine Christians can fall from grace and thus be in danger of experiencing the second death is demonstrated by Scripture. Please read the following verses prayerfully and carefully:

Galatians 5:2-4 (Compare with Galatians 1:6)

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 8:9-13

9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

James 5:19-20

19My brethren,if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Hebrews 4:11

11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Revelation 22:19

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

If you aren’t born of God, you can never have a part in the tree of life and the holy city. If you have a share in this eternal inheritance, then you are born of God. You cannot have a share taken away unless you had a share to begin with. Therefore, this verse exclusively applies to those born of God. By one act - taking away the words from this book - they can lose their inheritance.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

These verses are pretty clear as well.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Calvinists argue that not only can a one-time sin cost you your salvation, but that genuine Christians can never fall into a sinful “lifestyle” that will result in spiritual death. The Bible says otherwise:

Ezekiel 18:24

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Now the first objection some might raise is that this is Old Testament. However, was the way of becoming righteous before God different in the Old Covenant. Was man, prior to the New Covenant, not justified by the grace of God? It is clear from Hebrews 11 that God’s grace was at work in both the Old and New Covenants to make man righteous. The means of salvation were the same, though *explicit * knowledge of Jesus did not exist prior to His incarnation.

The other objection is that the “righteous” involved are not really righteous before God. They are merely righteous before men or “legally” righteous. However, it is God who identifies the person as righteous in this passage. Moreover, there is another passage in Ezekiel that completely contradicts this interpretation:

Ezekiel 33:13

**13When I shall say **to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

The key phrase “he shall surely live.” God only says that in Ezekiel exclusively when:

1. He justifies/ forgives the repentant sinner:

Ezekiel 33:14-16 (Ezekiel 18:21)

14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

1. When he confirms that a person is righteous in His sight:

Ezekiel 18:5-9

5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Therefore, in Ezekiel 33:13 must be righteous in God’s sight because the verse clearly states that at one point God said to that person “he shall surely live”, which is only used in the above two circumstances. God would never say that if that person were not righteous in His sight.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

This is pretty clear too! A righteous person can turn away from his righteousness and die in that state.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

A history of perseverance of the saints:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a133.htm

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Cling2Cross]

Again - you are using words to your benefit and making assumptions using those words…

Ought the apostle say to all…okay brethren and future apostates!! Here is what ought to be done. I know this is not the way that our Pastor talks to the congregation. He must needs say “brethren”.

What you are doing is straying at a gnat and swallowing a camel. I would like to make one assertion to you concerning your passage in 1 Corinthians 8…also in Romans 14…

For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:15 NAS95)

Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. (Romans 14:20 NAS95)

I will just show this one for now…I would then like to ask you this question…are you saying that this “weak brother” is in Christ???

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1 NAS95)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24 NAS95)

Those that pass from death to life are those that will never come into condemnation. You turn that statement on its head. When presenting this scripture to you…

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NAS95)

**You say - well, this is only for the elect **and the non-elect that get justified will ultimately fall away. Well, as Romans 8:30 is only for the elect - is only Romans 8:1 for the elect???

How about the end of Romans 8 - is this only for the elect???

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Romans 8:31-35 NAS95)

Justification is clearly tied to election and nothing else…

Or can anyone be truly in Christ!! When presented with the clear presentation that Christ gives in John 6…What you do is take each scripture out of context rather than put it together and see the clear truth of it…

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. (John 6:37 NAS95)

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44 NAS95)

Okay - all that the Father gives me will come to me…

Alrighty…does this include every person in the world?? Not hardly. Only those that are given to Christ will come…and, yes, ofcourse…He that comes to Christ He will in no wise cast out.

Then is verse 44, we have the fact that Christ says - nobody can come unless they are drawn and then what - He will raise them up at the last day!!! **Does that sound like anything but God the Father giving the elect to Christ **- He will not cast them out…and they will be raised up at the last day??? You are making a mistake when you take these scriptures and totally split them up and analyze them separately. We get a repeat shortly after…

And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” (John 6:65 NAS95)

The Father gives some to Christ…they come…and they will be raised up at the last day. And, the only way is for those given to then come…then they will be raised up (reminds me of Romans 8:30 )

Now…let me ask you…can the non-elect become sheep? You seem to think so. You think that they can become children of God, sheep, beloved of God, in Christ, indwelt by the Spirit…is this correct?? Now, let us examine something here for a moment…

Again…

For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:15 NAS95)

Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. (Romans 14:20 NAS95)

Are you saying that this person is all of the things that I listed above??? Now, what you are saying is that it is possible for one of the sheep can be plucked out of the hand of the Savior…this flies in the face of…

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, **and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. **(John 10:27-29 NAS95)

What then could this passage be teaching…for one…the elect must come to Christ and persevere in the faith right? Ultimately they are going to be saved…BUT…the means by which this takes place must be accomplished. This is the very purpose of this passage - it is for the elect’s sake. The elect coming to Christ and staying in hrist is a battle and not a piece of cake. You squeeze out “weak brother” from the passage and now you contradict John 10:27-29…it does not say that, in fact, this has happened. But, we are told that ultimately…it cannot happen. I think you need to reconsider your interpretation of that passage.

cont’d

 

[Cling2Cross]

When we look at what you attempt to show as a loss of salvation…you fail to keep context and fail to avoid contradiction.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 NAS95)

Then you use…

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:26-29 NAS95)

And your interpretation utterly contradicts, yes, clear passages in 1 John. Why would you want to discredit 1 John??

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. (1 John 3:6 NAS95)

Line that up with Hebrews 10:26!

Line 1 John 5:4 up with Luke 8:

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. (1 John 5:4 NAS95)

"The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. (Luke 8:14 NAS95)

You say that this person was born again…this dos not seem to be the case.

Anyway - I have to go…ultimately…you stray at gnats and swallow a camel.

 

[sodak]

Ok, I re-read your initial post. I don’t see a question in there, or are you just proselytizing?

 

[mikeledes]

What you are doing is straying at a gnat and swallowing a camel. I would like to make one assertion to you concerning your passage in 1 Corinthians 8…also in Romans 14…

For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:15 NAS95)

Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. (Romans 14:20 NAS95)

I will just show this one for now…I would then like to ask you this question…are you saying that this “weak brother” is in Christ???

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1 NAS95)

You think that they can become children of God, sheep, beloved of God, in Christ, indwelt by the Spirit…is this correct?? Now, let us examine something here for a moment…

Again…

For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:15 NAS95)

Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. (Romans 14:20 NAS95)

Are you saying that this person is all of the things that I listed above??? Now, what you are saying is that it is possible for one of the sheep can be plucked out of the hand of the Savior…this flies in the face of…

You’ve listed a lot of verses that I intend on addressing. However, I have this question to ask. Are you saying this “weak brother” is not in Christ?

**For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:15 NAS95)

Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. (Romans 14:20 NAS95)**

1 Corinthians 8:9-11 (KJV)

**9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? **

This weak brother is described as being the “work of God” and as one “for whom Christ died.” Can you explain how that fits with the Calvinist notion of limited atonment if this brother is not in Christ? Can you explain how a person can tear down the “work of God?”

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Again - you are using words to your benefit and making assumptions using those words…

Ought the apostle say to all…okay brethren and future apostates!! Here is what ought to be done. I know this is not the way that our Pastor talks to the congregation. He must needs say “brethren”.

My analysis of Hebrews 3 is not the product of a biased Catholic who cannot see otherwise. My point was that that verse is warning Christians, exhorting them to take care so that they will not develop an evil unbelieving heart. The respected and widelly used Calvinist Matthew Henry commetary states:

**1. He gives the Hebrews a proper caution; the word is, Take heed, blepete—look to it. “Look about you; be upon your guard against enemies both within and without; be circumspect. You see what kept many of your forefathers out of Canaan, and made their carcasses fall in the wilderness; take heed lest you fall into the same sin and snare and dreadful sentence. For you see Christ is head of the church, a much greater person than Moses, and your contempt of him must be a greater sin than their contempt of Moses; and so you are in danger of falling under a severer sentence than they.” Observe, The ruin of others should be a warning to us to take heed of the rock they split upon. Israel’s fall should for ever be a warning to all who come after them; for all these things happened to them for ensamples (1 Cor. x. 11), and should be remembered by us. Take heed; all who would get safely to heaven must look about them.

1. He enforces the admonition with an affectionate compellation: “Brethren, not only in the flesh, but in the Lord; brethren whom I love, and for whose welfare I labour and long.” And here he enlarges upon the matter of the admonition: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. Here observe, (1.) A heart of unbelief is an evil heart. Unbelief is a great sin, it vitiates the heart of man. (2.) An evil heart of unbelief is at the bottom of all our sinful departures from God; it is a leading step to apostasy; if once we allow ourselves to distrust God, we may soon desert him. (3.) Christian brethren have need to be cautioned against apostasy. Let those that think they stand take heed lest they fall.
2. He subjoins good counsel to the caution, and advises them to that which would be a remedy against this evil heart of unbelief—that they should exhort one another daily, while it is called to-day, v. 13. Observe, (1.) We should be doing all the good we can to one another while we are together, which will be but a short and uncertain time. (2.) Since to-morrow is none of ours, we must make the best improvement of to-day. (3.) If Christians do not exhort one another daily, they will be in danger of being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Note, [1.] There is a great deal of deceitfulness in sin; it appears fair, but is filthy; it appears pleasant, but is pernicious; it promises much, but performs nothing. [2.] The deceitfulness of sin is of a hardening nature to the soul; one sin allowed prepares for another; every act of sin confirms the habit; sinning against conscience is the way to sear the conscience; and therefore it should be the great concern of every one to exhort himself and others to beware of sin.**

Matthew Henry sees this passage as an warning to Chritians and as a preventative measure. Of course, being Calvinits, Henry obviously does not believe their salvation can be lost. However, I would argue that if they receive this warning and such preventaitive measures are necessary, then the real possibility exists that they can lose their salvation, particularly when Hebrews mentions actual apostates.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

And your interpretation utterly contradicts, yes, clear passages in 1 John. Why would you want to discredit 1 John??

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. (1 John 3:6 NAS95)

Line that up with Hebrews 10:26!

Line 1 John 5:4 up with Luke 8:

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. (1 John 5:4 NAS95)

"The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. (Luke 8:14 NAS95)

You say that this person was born again…this dos not seem to be the case.

Anyway - I have to go…ultimately…you stray at gnats and swallow a camel.

Interesting how you rarely address the actual verses I give you and somehow think that the verses you present overturn their clear reading. Be careful that you are not swallowing a camel. How do you square your interpretation of 1 John with actual examples of “born of God” practicing sin. How do you square your interpretation of 1 John with the clear example of an unquestionably born of God person like Solomon:

1 Kings 11:1-10

**1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:
2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded. **

Turning away from God is a grievous sin and its ultimate punishment is eternal damnation:

Hebrews 12:25

**25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: **

Solomon is described as having “forsaken” God (1 Kings 11:33). Moreover, there is no indication in this chapter that Solomon expressed sorrow for his sin or repented. In fact, he attempted to thwart the word of God from being accomplished (1 Kings 11:40) by attempting to kill Jeroboam.

Solomon has not just committed a single sin. He has forsaken God and has adopted a idolatrous lifestyle, building temples to pagan gods and sacrificing to them. Please explain how your intepretation of 1 John is reconciled with this very clear example in the Bible concerning ‘born of God’ Solomon?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

BTW… if 1 Corinthians 8:11 will never happen, why does Paul bring it up in the first place? If what I do - in this case eat meat sacrificed to idols - cannot cause my weak brother to perish, then Paul has just lied. Why? Because the truth is - according to Calvinists - that nothing I can do can cause another person to perish. If Paul knows that the eating meat sacrificed to idols can never cause a weak brother to perish, then why does he say it can, knowing that it can’t? That would mean that he was using a lie to scare people.

1 Corinthians 8:9-11

**9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? **

Paul calls the person weak brother, not FALSE brother. Also the Greek word used here for “perish” is the same Greek word - apollumi - found in John 3:16, John 10:28, John 17:12, 2 Corinthians 2:15, etc. It means to perish or to be lost. If it cannot happen, then it makes no sense because we have clear cases in which Christians actually did what Paul talks about in this passage:

Revelation 2:20

**20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. **

Regarding stumbling blocks, we also have:

Mark 9:42-49

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
49 “For everyone will be seasoned with fire,and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”

Salt losing its saltiness? What does salt represent?

Matthew 5:13

13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.

Christians are the salt of the earth and Jesus discusses the distinct possibility of Christians losing there saltiness and thus being good for nothing.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Ignatius]

Ok, I re-read your initial post. I don’t see a question in there, or are you just proselytizing?

It is clearly not a sincere investigation of The Catholic Faith.

Also, he missed a very important point. It is unrepented sin that separates us from God. If we go around without repenting of our sins, we bring condemnation on ourselves, which is plain throughout the Bible. If we repent, God is merciful and sure to forgive us.

Also, from the way he writes, It’s easy to tell that he is unaware of a couple of things. According to a recent poll, over half of the folks here were former evangelical, nondenominational and other Protestants before discovering the Truth of the Catholic Church. A number of them were even Pastors. So they have a full, indepth awareness of Protestant theology.

 

[Cling2Cross]

BTW… if 1 Corinthians 8:11 will never happen, why does Paul bring it up in the first place? If what I do - in this case eat meat sacrificed to idols - cannot cause my weak brother to perish, then Paul has just lied. Why? Because the truth is - according to Calvinists - that nothing I can do can cause another person to perish. If Paul knows that the eating meat sacrificed to idols can never cause a weak brother to perish, then why does he say it can, knowing that it can’t? That would mean that he was using a lie to scare people.

1 Corinthians 8:9-11

**9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock **to them that are weak.
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Paul calls the person weak brother, not FALSE brother. Also the Greek word used here for “perish” is the same Greek word - apollumi - found in John 3:16, John 10:28, John 17:12, 2 Corinthians 2:15, etc. It means to perish or to be lost. If it cannot happen, then it makes no sense because we have clear cases in which Christians actually did what Paul talks about in this passage:

Revelation 2:20

20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

Regarding stumbling blocks, we also have:

Mark 9:42-49

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
49 “For everyone will be seasoned with fire,and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”

Salt losing its saltiness? What does salt represent?

Matthew 5:13

13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.

Christians are the salt of the earth and Jesus discusses the distinct possibility of Christians losing there saltiness and thus being good for nothing.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

Enjoy your life.

By the way - I am pretty much a 4-pointer through recent study.

 

[mikeledes]

Another example from Scripture is:

**42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. **

A servant can start out “faithful and wise” and end up drinking and beating those servants His master put under his charge. Why did his master put him in charge over his household? Because he was wise and faithful, as stated in verse 42. Here, Jesus discusses the possibility that a faithful servant will not persevere in his faithful service to his master and end up in hell. This reminds me, again, of Ezekiel 18:24:

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Enjoy your life.

By the way - I am pretty much a 4-pointer through recent study.

I hope you enjoy your life as well. It’s a real shame that you have to end a discussion because I did not immediately convert to your point of view. It is also a real shame that you are leaving this thread without responding to all of the verses I presented, particularly your take on Ezekiel and Solomon.

I would love to respond to each of the verses you presented. Due to restrictions in time, I haven’t been able to. For the sake of those who may be following this thread, I will.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It seems that Calvinists are more certain of their salvation then Paul himself:

1 Corinthians 9:27

**27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. **

Compare that with:

Romans 8:12-13

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I truly doubt that Saint Paul would even mention the possibility of his own “disqualification” if he were really believed Calvinism’s perseverance of the saints. He would know that there could never be disqualification.

BTW, Cling2Cross, all those verses you pointed out in Romans were qualified by Paul in the following passages:

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Galatains 5:4

**4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **

So much for perseverance of the saints.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Cling2Cross]

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)

Whomever is justified – these he glorified…ultimate salvation for those who are justified.

So, that is only for the elect – 'tis true.

How about these…

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1 KJV)

For the elect only?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10:27-29 KJV)

For the elect only?

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:6 KJV)

For the elect only?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24 KJV)

For the elect only?

And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24 KJV)

For the elect only?

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:1-3 KJV)
**
For the elect only? After all, they were born again!! This could mean those non-elect that God gives to the Son NOT to raise up at the last day.**

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (1 Peter 1:4 KJV)

For the elect only?

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5 KJV)

For the elect only??

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14 KJV)

For the elect only? Along the same lines…

Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. (John 13:10 KJV)

For the elect only??

Is 1 John full of scriptures ONLY for the born again elect???

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29 KJV)

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (1 John 3:14 KJV)

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 KJV)

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4 KJV)

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18 KJV)

For the elect only??

How about these…

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1 KJV)

Is that for the elect only?

How about…

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5:2 KJV)

Is that for the elect only??

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:4-5 KJV)
**
If that only for the elect?**

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (Romans 3:24 KJV)

What about that – is that only for the elect?

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:9 KJV)

Is that only for the elect?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. (Romans 8:33 KJV)

Yes – this is for the elect…

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8:31 KJV)

Who is this one for?

Cont’d

 

[Cling2Cross]

In light of Ephesians 1 and the glorious introduction…

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (Ephesians 1:1-7 KJV)

Is it that only the elect get to hear these things said to them – or the non-elect vessels fit for destruction…

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13 KJV)

Is that only for the elect?

Now back to Romans again -

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:10 KJV)

Is this only for the elect?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Romans 6:3 KJV)

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6:5 KJV)

Is this only for the elect?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (Romans 6:17 KJV)

Is this for the elect only…

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1 KJV)
**
I am repeating myself – but who is this for?**

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:27 KJV)

Is that for the elect only…

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28 KJV)
**
This??**
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Romans 8:35 KJV)

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:37-39 KJV)
**
This is not only for the elect, is it?**

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37 KJV)

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 KJV)

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65 KJV)

This set of scriptures – I have argued that only the elect – those given to the Son by the Father – can come to Christ and be IN CHRIST.

Romans, again…

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:16 KJV)

Is this for the elect only?

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Romans 8:26 KJV)

How about this???

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (Romans 8:34 KJV)

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25 KJV)
**
Is that for the elect only?**

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1 KJV)

How about this…

We could continue on and continue on and continue on…

As long as you continue to “parable-squeeze” and use words here and there to turn the countless passages and broad context of scripture on its head, you will continue to err in this forum.