Mortal Sin---What is "Full Knowledge"?

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Read the following slowly…

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Faith and understanding

156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”.28 So "that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit."29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is “by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.30

157 Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives."31 "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."32

158 “Faith seeks understanding”:33 it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. The grace of faith opens "the eyes of your hearts"34 to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery. "The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood."35 In the words of St. Augustine, "I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe."36

159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth."37 "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."38

(make sure you read the whole section: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm#I)
 
jmcrae said:
This is why the guidance of the Church is such a great gift to us - we are not left to try to figure these things out all by ourselves. 🙂

👍👍👍

Jesus tells a parable of two brothers - their father tells them, “Go to work in the fields” - the first brother says, “I will not,” but later, changes his mind and goes to work in the fields. The second brother says, “yes, right away, sir,” but then allows himself to get distracted and fails to go. Jesus asks, Which of the brothers did his father’s will? They all answered, The first.

This is instructive, because what it teaches us is that our obedient actions are what God is interested in; not how we happen to feel about them at any given moment. In fact, I should think that it is more meritorious, that you didn’t feel like going to Mass, but you went anyway, in order to be obedient. 🙂
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Yes…in regards to feelings. to over come them can be of great merit…(and often one may have just had feelings etc and not mortal sin in will) …but it is also true that if a person actually choose to “not go to Mass” with full knowledge and complete consent…such is already a mortal sin …

…yes they should of course still go to Mass (not receive communion of course as with any mortal sin)…and yes that is Good…already the beginning of repentance!! One does then “full fill ones Sunday obligation” by going…but one does need to deal with the mortal sin of choice …
 
Thoughtfulone said:
Well, with all the noise in the world, it’s a wonder anybody can distinguish conscience from desire, will or instinct!

BTW, Bookcat is the one telling me that deciding not to go to Mass and then going anyway is still a sin because I would have made the decision with full knowledge and consent even if I didn’t act on it…

Yes I am :)…such is the teaching within the Church…as Catholic Moral theology explains…“if one has full knowledge and complete consent!” …but interested readers can read my fuller explaination in the thread…and how one could just be tempted…or not give full consent etc…for example as explained here forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7287577&postcount=119

As to mental sins…it is good for readers to read Jimmy Akin here…it s a good overview jimmyakin.org/2005/06/mental_sins.html
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Bookcat said:
Yes…in regards to feelings. to over come them can be of great merit…(and often one may have just had feelings etc and not mortal sin in will) …but it is also true that if a person actually choose to “not go to Mass” with full knowledge and complete consent…such is already a mortal sin …
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The choice does not exist yet until the person has actually not gone to Mass, though.

This is not like the sin of lust, which is a sin that occurs actually in the mind itself - to not go to Mass is a physical non-action - if, ultimately, the person goes to Mass, then there was a thought, but that thought never became the non-action.

To be tempted, is not to sin.

Jesus was tempted (He thought of changing stones into bread; He though of testing the angels by leaping off of a high place; He thought of overcoming the world by force) but He never sinned - thinking of these things was not the same as doing them.
 
Thoughtfulone said:
It’s very hard to suddenly change your way of thinking when so much that I have been taught and loved about my Church seems to have been misguided or flat-out wrong.
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Yes I understand the difficulty…

If say someone is brought up sayyyy… to believe that the Catholic Church teaches that dating is wrong…and that it is a mortal sin to go to the movies…all their life. Such can be difficult when one then finds out that such is not the teaching of the Church! But it is the Church one must go to …to perhaps unlearn some misconceptions etc.

Thanks be to God for the Catechism and other things of like nature 🙂

But yes…I can understand and feel the difficulty…
 
jmcrae said:
The choice does not exist yet until the person has actually not gone to Mass, though.

Such is not the case. Such is not how Catholic Moral theology and the teaching of the Church undertand such.

This is not like the sin of lust, which is a sin that occurs actually in the mind itself - to not go to Mass is a physical non-action - if, ultimately, the person goes to Mass, then there was a thought, but that thought never became the non-action.

Yes actually it is. If one makes a choice…an act of the will to not go to Mass that Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation (without the excusing reason) with full knowledge and deliberate consent …full consent…mortal sin has already happened interiorly.

To be tempted, is not to sin.

Jesus was tempted (He thought of changing stones into bread; He though of testing the angels by leaping off of a high place; He thought of overcoming the world by force) but He never sinned - thinking of these things was not the same as doing them.

actually it does not say he thought of doing it…he was tempted from the outside…but that is another matter…leave that aside for the moment…

Yes we can be tempted…yes even have thoughts and begin deliberations…or have feelings etc…all without giving deliberate consent…such can happen. yes this is true…but if one gives into such temptation and decides to not go to Mass with full knowledge and deliberate consent …such is already a mortal sin

yes temptation is not a sin. But to will what is grave matter with full knowledge and deliberate consent is…in fact by definition it is mortal (all things being equal)
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One can commit a mortal sin and never act on it. The Church and Moral theology is clear on this. Sins are of though…word…deed…etc. One does not need to act on such to commit a mortal sin. This is the Catholic teaching. More of course is involved of course in someone usually who “decides to murder” and then decides not to. …one does not just “move on with their life” after deciding to murder someone…one must confess…and work out ones problems of course…this is not a “flesh and blood” example. Real people of course have much to work out and can be complicated.

This is an example to explain a the principle.

But one can use any number of things.
With full knowledge and complete consent tonight on Friday:

A person can decide to steal $10,000 from their employer.
A person can decide to go buy pornography
A person can decide to lie under oath in court
A person can decide to not go to Mass (without excusing reason)
A person can decide to commit adultery
A person can decide to detract seriously
A person can decide to calumnate seriously
A person can decide to go look lustfully at women
A person can decide to reject the Catholic Faith
A person can decide to beat their elderly mother
A person can decide to rob a liquor store
A person can decide to get drunk (loosing their reason)
A person can decide to use contraception
etc etc etc

and thus commit mortal sin tonight on Friday…

and the next day…tomorrow on Saturdy…when it comes to actually do it…they may be prevented or they may even repent…but they have still committed (all things being equal) a mortal sin if they had full knowledge and deliberate consent.
 
jmcrae said:
The choice does not exist yet until the person has actually not gone to Mass, though.

This is not like the sin of lust, which is a sin that occurs actually in the mind itself - to not go to Mass is a physical non-action - if, ultimately, the person goes to Mass, then there was a thought, but that thought never became the non-action.
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One can commit a mortal sin interiorly and never act on it outwardly. The Church and Moral theology is clear on this. Sins are of though…word…deed…etc. One does not need to act on such to commit a mortal sin.

But one can use any number of things…it is not “just lust”…
With full knowledge and complete consent today on Tuesday:

A person can decide to steal $10,000 from their employer.
A person can decide to go buy pornography
A person can decide to lie under oath in court
A person can decide to not go to Mass (without excusing reason)
A person can decide to commit adultery
A person can decide to detract seriously
A person can decide to calumnate seriously
A person can decide to go look lustfully at women
A person can decide to reject the Catholic Faith
A person can decide to beat their elderly mother
A person can decide to rob a liquor store
A person can decide to get drunk (loosing their reason)
A person can decide to use contraception
etc etc etc

and thus commit mortal sin today on Tuesday…

and the next day…tomorrow on Weds…when it comes to actually do it…they may be prevented or they may even repent…but they have still committed (all things being equal) a mortal sin if they had full knowledge and deliberate consent.

(not that a day has to come in between!)

Now this is different from a person being “tempted” to do such…etc
 
If one realizes that one should stop thinking about it…that it a grave matter to continue…but goes ahead and with full knowledge and deliberate consent (the consent needs of course to be complete consent) and continues to think about it…yes such can be a mortal sin.

This can be for example gravely disordered “taking pleasure” or “desires” or “approving of grave sins” or “an interior decision to do something grave” …

But remember…

In interior sins too…to commit a moral sin one needs not only grave matter but full knowledge and complete consent…

Temptations can be very long and return often…such does not mean ANY sin has occurred.

Also a person with scrupulosity or scruples to one degree or another can be in a different boat to. Such readers need to remember this. And follow the directives of their confessor etc…they are usually told to steer by “certainty” and basically ignore the doubts…(but each can ask their confessor)

(…remember “temptation”… can be strong and repeated…and emotions can move us in a way that limits our full consent…or obsessive thoughts etc can bother a person…)
 
The classic stages of temptation when we are tempted are:
  1. Suggestion (the evil is proposed to us in some way) this can be quite attractive …can be thoughts that happen, ideas, proposals etc.
  2. Pleasure (a kind of automatic pleasure can happen from the suggestion) this pleasure can just happen…one is not “trying to have it” not wanting it…this is just a reaction…or the proposal ‘is attractive’ etc …it is not per se a sin yet.
3…then one either consents or does not consent.

(one can either consent fully and thus engage in things willingly …or not consent and perhaps thus grow in virtue…following Christ!)

Now it can often happen that one begins to “partially consent” but then rejects it and thus does not give full consent.

When one is tempted…

Some signs that one lacked consent or gave only perhaps “partial consent” not full consent and thus did not commit mortal sin in these kinds of temptations
  1. If even though there was some instinctive pleasure or attaction …we do not want it…we are unhappy or horrified about the evil…or struggle to not be overcome …we turn to God in Prayer --these are some signs of no consent (if of course we stay in this stage…and do not later consent)
(For example some impure thoughts come out of the blue just cause one happened to see an attractive person…and one does not want the thoughts but turns to God in Prayer or is horrified by them and turns to something else etc…no matter how much they come back…if one does not consent at all…there is no sin…but rather possibly growth in virtues)
  1. If one hesitates for a moment but then does not want to sin and so rejects it and does not give full consent (thus a fault against prudence)
  2. If one resists but the resistance is half hearted…one does resist but it is weak or slow…but in the end one rejects it…such would seem to be half consent and thus venial
Of course if one then gives in and gives full consent…then such can be mortal…remember…partial consent or half consent is not full consent…and thus not mortal.

In the end …if there is still doubt that one consented:

if the person is lax …one can urge confession for it is likely they consented otherwise it would not bother them…

for the delicate conscience or the scrupulous or one with scruples…they may as a practical approach rule out full consent for if they would have fully consented…it can be said that would likely know it. (one can ask their confessor if this applies to them)

(Based on A Tanquery… he bases things on S. Augustine…but much of this is simply repeated in various places…for it is the basics in judging such)
 
Thoughtfulone said:
Well, at least now I don’t feel so alone! May I ask how you expressed these feelings to your priest? I think I’m going to have to do the same thing. :o
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It helps to know you’re talking to a priest who allows you to question and wrestle with things. Not all are like that (I’ve learned the hard way). A friend recommended one priest as someone who might tell me to follow all the same advice I got at CAF, but at least he would explain why. I wouldn’t attempt it with a priest who is just going to tell you what to do and not take the time to explain things to you. Sounds like you’re like me and that just won’t work. I was fortunate to find a priest who is very learned and thoughtful and who told me a lot of things I never would have learned otherwise about the approach of the western catholic church and how they came up with some of the things that now are rules.

After that is when I decided that at least for now, I am going with what my own priest, who knows me, says about certain issues I was struggling with, to cut down on my anxiety and confusion. I continue to keep reading to learn more because I do believe that we will grow and change as we continue to seek the truth. My issues were not with basic tenets of the faith, but if yours are, it may be different.
 
Bookcat said:
If one makes a choice…an act of the will to not go to Mass that Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation (without the excusing reason) with full knowledge and deliberate consent …full consent…mortal sin has already happened interiorly.
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The evidence of such an act of the will would be that the person did not go to Mass. Remember, the will occurs in the limbs and body; not in the mind. If the person goes to Mass, then there was no act of the will, because the limbs and body find themselves at Mass - the thought was there, but the will was never engaged.

The exception would be if they were dragged to Mass kicking and screaming - but I am assuming our hypothetical non-Mass goer is a free adult, and can choose one way or the other for him or her self.
 
jmcrae said:
The evidence of such an act of the will would be that the person did not go to Mass.

We are not talking here of someone “watching someone” but of ME making an interior choice. Such done with full knowledge and deliberate consent is a mortal sin.

If I decide to kill my wife…with full knowledge and complete consent…but later in a new decision decide not to…say I fear I get caught or I repent…I have still committed a mortal sin. I have not murdered in action …but I have sinned mortally if I had full knowledge and complete consent.

Remember, the will occurs in the limbs and body; not in the mind.

Not according to Catholic Theology. The will yes can move the arms …the body…but ones choice is already an act of the will…long before action…see posts above…

If the person goes to Mass, then there was no act of the will, because the limbs and body find themselves at Mass - the thought was there, but the will was never engaged.

No according to Catholic Moral theology…such is not the understanding of such things within Catholic Church teaching…
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Bookcat said:
Yes…in regards to feelings. to over come them can be of great merit…(and often one may have just had feelings etc and not mortal sin in will) …but it is also true that if a person actually choose to “not go to Mass” with full knowledge and complete consent…such is already a mortal sin …

…yes they should of course still go to Mass (not receive communion of course as with any mortal sin)…and yes that is Good…already the beginning of repentance!! One does then “full fill ones Sunday obligation” by going…but one does need to deal with the mortal sin of choice …
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What is the difference here??? In the example of the 2 sons, the son blatantly told his Father “I will NOT”. How is this different from saying )to our father in Heaven) “I will not” go to mass, but then to go in order to be obedient?
 
jmcrae said:
The evidence of such an act of the will would be that the person did not go to Mass. Remember, the will occurs in the limbs and body; not in the mind. If the person goes to Mass, then there was no act of the will, because the limbs and body find themselves at Mass - the thought was there, but the will was never engaged.

The exception would be if they were dragged to Mass kicking and screaming - but I am assuming our hypothetical non-Mass goer is a free adult, and can choose one way or the other for him or her self.
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Thank you!!! This is my position as well. It is hard enough to try and be a good, obedient Catholic without having to be totally paranoid about things like this.

Bookcat, while I totally appreciate the thoughtfulness and time you take to answer these posts (an I do also appreciate all of the reading material, you provide from the catechism and other sources! They should keep my busy for a long time!), I feel like with your understanding of it, God is almost trying to trap us into screwing up. He knows our hearts and we show what is in our hearts through the obedience of our actions.
 
Thoughtfulone said:
Thank you!!! This is my position as well. It is hard enough to try and be a good, obedient Catholic without having to be totally paranoid about things like this…
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But such is not how such is. Not according to Catholic Theology. The Church is not going to agree with one here…
 
AnneTeresa said:
It helps to know you’re talking to a priest who allows you to question and wrestle with things. Not all are like that (I’ve learned the hard way). A friend recommended one priest as someone who might tell me to follow all the same advice I got at CAF, but at least he would explain why. I wouldn’t attempt it with a priest who is just going to tell you what to do and not take the time to explain things to you. Sounds like you’re like me and that just won’t work. I was fortunate to find a priest who is very learned and thoughtful and who told me a lot of things I never would have learned otherwise about the approach of the western catholic church and how they came up with some of the things that now are rules.

After that is when I decided that at least for now, I am going with what my own priest, who knows me, says about certain issues I was struggling with, to cut down on my anxiety and confusion. I continue to keep reading to learn more because I do believe that we will grow and change as we continue to seek the truth. My issues were not with basic tenets of the faith, but if yours are, it may be different.
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Thank you! I may try to mention some of my anxieties and struggles at confession next week. Wish me the courage to do so! I always find it hard talking to a priest about doubt and disobedience!
 
Bookcat said:
But such is not how such is. Not according to Catholic Theology. The Church is not going to agree with one here…
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Well, then perhaps the Church is wrong, since the Bible seems to directly contradict it with an example that is practically the exact same scenario.
 
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