Mortal Sin---What is "Full Knowledge"?

[steve_b]

It “can be” not a sin…that is called a temptation.

But if (as one example) a person with full knowledge and complete consent chooses not to go to Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation (without excusing reason) …decides I am not going to go…such by definition is a mortal sin.

Even if they later repent of that choice and make another one and go. (they will end up fulfilling their Sunday obligation…but still have the other mortal sin to confess).

I’m not sure I understand your example. Are you saying,

Scenerio #1

• a person decides he is not going to go to mass that Sunday,
• later that Sunday, decides in favor of going to mass and goes.

or are you saying
​

Scenerio #2

• decides not to go to mass on Sunday and doesn’t
• He’s ultimately sorry and goes to mass during the week, or next Sunday thinking that fulfills the Sunday obligation he missed

Scenerio #1 is not a mortal sin nor a venial sin. It WAS a temptation that wasn’t acted on

Scenerio #2 is a mortal sin (missing mass on purpose) . And must be confessed in sacramental confession for forgiveness before receiving the Eucharist again. If he receives the Eucharist without going to confession first, he compounds his mortal sin.

 

[Bookcat]

So then if they do not go to mass, are you saying that the person has committed 2 mortal sins? The DECISION not to go and the ACT of not going? Boy, they’re really starting to pile up…

No…there would be one mortal sin.

The Act includes the decision …that was directed towards that act.

But if the one does not actually Miss Mass…due to repentance or a new decision one still has ALREADY committed a mortal sin.

Same as if one decides to murder ones wife with full knowledge and complete consent…and then repents and does not do the dastardly deed. One has not committed the mortal sin of murder…but has committed a mortal sin of deciding to murder her.

Or if a person has the intent to say commit adultery…with full knowledge and complete consent…but ends up not doing so in act…they still have committed a mortal sin in thought.

If they act on that intent…then that intent is part of the act of adultery. The would confess usually “I committed adultery”. (in the former case they would confess “I tended to commit adultery but never acted on my decision…due to my wife coming home sooner etc)”

This is standard Catholic Moral Theology.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, they sure are!

Makes you wonder why Jesus bothered with the actual Cross - He could have just “decided” that He was dying for our sins, and then changed His mind later, and it would have been the same thing as actually doing it.

Such has nothing to do with this…

apples and oranges.

 

[jmcrae]

Such has nothing to do with this…

apples and oranges.

Not at all. If thinking is the same as doing, then it is the same in every case - in virtue, as well as in vice.

If thinking of committing a sin is the same thing as committing the sin, then thinking of performing a virtue is the same thing, and instills the same grace, as actually performing the virtue - if the act itself isn’t necessary for the sin, then neither is it necessary, for the virtue.

 

[Bookcat]

I’m not sure I understand your example. Are you saying,

Scenerio #1

• a person decides he is not going to go to mass that Sunday,
• later that Sunday, decides in favor of going to mass and goes.

or are you saying
​

Scenerio #2

• decides not to go to mass on Sunday and doesn’t
• He’s ultimately sorry and goes to mass during the week, or next Sunday thinking that fulfills the Sunday obligation he missed

Scenerio #1 is not a mortal sin nor a venial sin. It WAS a temptation that wasn’t acted on

Scenerio #2 is a mortal sin (missing mass on purpose) . And must be confessed in sacramental confession for forgiveness before receiving the Eucharist again. If he receives the Eucharist without going to confession first, he compounds his mortal sin.

I am saying that a person can commit a mortal sin internally if they decide without the excusing reason to miss Sunday Mass…even if they later make a new decision to go ahead and go on Sunday. That they have still committed a mortal sin in their decision not to go…made with full knowledge and complete consent. (though they have fulfilled the obligation…and of course should not go to communion…just as anyone is not to go to communion with mortal sin…be it deciding to Miss Mass, lust, sins against the faith etc)

But that a person may just have “temptations” and not give in to then…and end up going to Mass. Thus they can be even without any sin.

 

[Bookcat]

Not at all. If thinking is the same as doing, then it is the same in every case - in virtue, as well as in vice.

If thinking of committing a sin is the same thing as committing the sin, then thinking of performing a virtue is the same thing, and instills the same grace, as actually performing the virtue - if the act itself isn’t necessary for the sin, then neither is it necessary, for the virtue.

Never said thinking is the same as doing.

But one can commit a mortal sin internally without any external action.

If one decides with full knowledge and complete consent to Miss Mass without the excusing reason…such is a mortal sin.

(though of course God could have chosen to redeem us any any number of ways…or just by doing so…)

 

[jmcrae]

Never said thinking is the same as doing.

You keep on saying so, over and over.

But one can commit a mortal sin internally without any external action.

Here it is again - tell me how this is not, thinking it results in the same loss of grace as doing it?

If one decides with full knowledge and complete consent to Miss Mass without the excusing reason…such is a mortal sin.

And here it is again - thinking of missing Mass results in the same loss of grace as actually missing Mass - thinking, once again, equals doing.

 

[Bookcat]

You keep on saying so, over and over.

No I NEVER said such.

Thinking does not = doing externally.

(my wife can tell you I have been thinking of doing certain things…and have not done them)

As to: And here it is again - thinking of missing Mass results in the same loss of grace as actually missing Mass - thinking, once again, equals doing.

No thinking of Missing Mass may or may not be a mortal sin as I noted. But yes if for example one with full knowledge and deliberate consent decides I am not going to Mass…yes that is a mortal sin. But thinking does not equal doing per se. And if one repents and still goes one has not “committed the mortal sin of not going to Mass” …but one has still committed the other mortal sin earlier in the day (which is mortal but not the same).

One can sin in ones thoughts, desires, omissions and external actions.

(but in all cases…mortal sin requires grave matter, full knowledge and complete consent…one must distinguish that from say some temptations etc…)

One can though commit a mortal sin in ones thoughts. Even if one later repents of what one decided to do. This is the teaching within the Catholic Church and of Catholic Moral Theology.

 

[Bookcat]

jimmyakin.org/2005/06/mental_sins.html

 

[jmcrae]

jimmyakin.org/2005/06/mental_sins.html

Jimmy actually agrees with me.

There are sins that are mental sins - lust, anger, pride, and the like - but thinking of committing a physical sin is not a “mental sin”.

 

[davidv]

Jimmy actually agrees with me.

There are sins that are mental sins - lust, anger, pride, and the like - but thinking of committing a physical sin is not a “mental sin”.

Why not? Isn’t that what lust is, thinking about committing adultery or fornication?

 

[steve_b]

I am saying that a person can commit a mortal sin internally if they decide without the excusing reason to miss Sunday Mass…even if they later make a new decision to go ahead and go on Sunday.

I would suggest the intention was not serious, since the power to go to mass was stronger than missing mass.
B:

That they have still committed a mortal sin in their decision not to go…made with full knowledge and complete consent. (though they have fulfilled the obligation*.*…and of course should not go to communion…just as anyone is not to go to communion with mortal sin…be it deciding to Miss Mass, lust, sins against the faith etc)

But that a person may just have “temptations” and not give in to then…and end up going to Mass. Thus they can be even without any sin.

True.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

The question I would like Bookcat to clarify is, what exactly is the difference between being severely tempted to sleep in on Sunday vs actually deciding to skip Mass and thereby committing a mortal sin? When the alarm goes off, if I say to myself, “Heck with it, I’m not going today,” but then on the first snooze I come to my senses and go, was that a temptation or a short-lived but real decision?

 

[Bookcat]

Jimmy actually agrees with me.

There are sins that are mental sins - lust, anger, pride, and the like - but thinking of committing a physical sin is not a “mental sin”.

I am afraid not. He certainly would not agree with you. If you would like to see…just give a call on Thursday.

This is just standard Catholic Moral Theology.

If I choose to not go to Mass…with full knowledge and complete consent such is already a mortal sin.

It is gravely sinful to will to do any gravely sinful act. Even if one later makes a new act of will.

Mortal sins can take place all in the will.

To give just one example the Catechism notes that to desire that grave harm (which is a physical thing) come to someone is grave sin (without any actual action!!)

Of course in all sins of thoughts…there is action. The action is the action of the will…and it is internal. But still mortal (when it is as described)

 

[Bookcat]

again one must distinguish:

the word “thinking” or “thoughts” can just mean: all sorts of temptations or other non sinful thinking…all sorts of thoughts can happen…beginnings of deliberation etc or even other non sinful thinking …without there being any sin even.

…such is not the same as what I am talking about.

 

[jmcrae]

Why not? Isn’t that what lust is, thinking about committing adultery or fornication?

No. To lust is to think of the other person as an object for sexual pleasure. Thinking about having sex is not a sin.

 

[davidv]

The question I would like Bookcat to clarify is, what exactly is the difference between being severely tempted to sleep in on Sunday vs actually deciding to skip Mass and thereby committing a mortal sin? When the alarm goes off, if I say to myself, “Heck with it, I’m not going today,” but then on the first snooze I come to my senses and go, was that a temptation or a short-lived but real decision?

Part of the answer is provided by this quote for the Catechism:

**2847 **The Holy Spirit makes us *discern *between trials, which are necessary for the growth of the inner man, and temptation, which leads to sin and death. We must also discern between being tempted and consenting to temptation. Finally, discernment unmasks the lie of temptation, whose object appears to be good, a “delight to the eyes” and desirable, when in reality its fruit is death. God does not want to impose the good, but wants free beings. . . . There is a certain usefulness to temptation. No one but God knows what our soul has received from him, not even we ourselves. But temptation reveals it in order to teach us to know ourselves, and in this way we discover our evil inclinations and are obliged to give thanks for the goods that temptation has revealed to us.

The difference is in the “consenting”.

 

[jmcrae]

I am afraid not. He certainly would not agree with you. If you would like to see…just give a call on Thursday.

This is just standard Catholic Moral Theology.

If I choose to not go to Mass…with full knowledge and complete consent such is already a mortal sin.

If you “fully consent” then you would not later end up at Mass. Action follows decision.

 

[Bookcat]

I would suggest the intention was not serious, since the power to go to mass was stronger than missing mass.

You are not able to suggest such. Why? Cause it is laid out already…the person DID have full knowledge and complete consent. Such is established in my scenario. It is given.

So yes the person committed a mortal sin in thought.

But yes as I say again and again…it may be the case that a person may not have committed a mortal sin…just cause some thoughts come etc…does not mean the person consented etc…

.

 

[davidv]

No. To lust is to think of the other person as an object for sexual pleasure. Thinking about having sex is not a sin.

How does one make another an object of sexual pleasure except by thinking it?

So, thinking something, can in fact be sinful.