Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sometimes I wonder if the Lord isn’t looking down at us all, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. and just shaking His head at how much time we spend with triumphalism and trying to point out our differences seeking to feel warm and fuzzy that we’re the “real deal” while others are null and void.

Everyone in this thread loves the Lord differently. I wish we could all see each other as brothers and stop emphasizing the differences and accenting the alien we see in one another…

 

[Pork_Roll]

Everyone in this thread loves the Lord differently. I wish we could all see each other as brothers and stop emphasizing the differences and accenting the alien we see in one another…

I think you are being a bit to simplistic. The only way we’ve achieved unity is when other churches or Christian communities make the decision to be in union with Rome. All of the holding hands and let’s just get along attitude will never get us there. Nor will being like this Hilarion and drawing a line and say you must come to us. Russia doesn’t speak for all the Eastern Orthodox. The Ecumenical Patriarch is much more accommodating than this guy. It’s going to take a long time.

 

[Holly3278]

Speaking as a traditional Roman Catholic, I probably don’t have much experience on this matter, if any. Indeed, I have never been to an Orthodox Church or to an Eastern Catholic Church. There aren’t any in my area either. That said, I honestly don’t understand why the Orthodox refuse to have full communion with us. Isn’t unity in the Church a good thing?

 

[dzheremi]

I hope Hesychios doesn’t mind me linking a post he made in another thread to this one, as I think it is relevant in pursuit of a more favorable, or at least less acrimonious, view of one another: The Proper View of Non-Orthodox Christians

I fail to see how it could be objectionable to anyone in any of the apostolic communions, because if you don’t recognize it as being true about the communion which Fr. Seraphim Rose is writing, you can probably recognize that it is essentially what you believe about your own communion, and so can relate to it on that level when Fr. Seraphim writes things like:

“If God wishes to grant salvation to some who are Christians in the best way they know, but without ever knowing the Orthodox Church – that is up to Him, not us. But when He does this, it is outside the normal way that He established for salvation – which is the Church, as part of the Body of Christ”

or

About those Christians who are outside the Orthodox Church, therefore, I would say: they do not yet have the full truth. Perhaps it just hasn’t been revealed to them yet, or perhaps it is our fault for not living and teaching the Orthodox Faith in a way they can understand. With such people we cannot be one in the Faith, but there is no reason why we should regard them as totally estranged or as equal to pagans (although we should not be hostile to pagans either- they also haven’t yet seen the truth!)

…or any number of similar things. If not exactly “brotherhood”, it is at least not the relatively harsh polemical characterization of ecclesiastical relations we have seen in many other places.

 

[Nine_Two]

You are wrong to think that I am anomalous among Greek Catholics. Do you have contact with Greek Catholics and parishes or are you extrapolating from the net? And your calling me ultramontanist is a bit of joke. Perhaps there are Greek Catholics on the net who give the impression of seeing every problem as something done to us by Rome. Perhaps they even feel more “orthodox” that way. I am more willing to say that are problems are not in our stars but in ourselves - and so are the solutions to our problems. We should not have unrealistic expectations about what Rome will or will not do, nor should we let that stand as an excuse for the lack of taking matters into our own hands and shaping our own destiny. Blaming Rome looks to me like a cop out for those who like to play a melodramatic role of victim. Off the net, such folks a decided minority.

As I’ve mentioned here, and many times before at CAF, I enjoy cooperating with EOs, even when I know that it will be a one-way street. We had a Greek Catholic monk visiting here last week; after long travels, I was happy to get home and chant the akathist to the Theotokos with him on Friday. I was reluctant to mention to the people I sing with at the EO mission, because I knew that it would put them in an awkward position. However, I have a limit. And that limit aggression against Greek Catholics. I will not compromise on that. Met. Hilarion went over the line.

Good to know that atrocities committed centuries ago don’t count as much as recent ones. In that case we just have to wait 200 years and none of these things you Eastern Catholics are holding against us will matter!

Holodomor? What’s that? Holocaust? Doesn’t matter. Ethnic cleansing? Don’t worry about it!

You’ll have to show where Met. Hilarion libels (he certainly didn’t slander) Eastern Catholics in the OP article, because I looked through it and found very little on them, and nothing that was libelous. Personally I think your confusion comes from the fact that you don’t know what slander or libel actually mean (otherwise you wouldn’t have used the word slander), and what you actually meant is he said something in the original story that you found offensive.

If this is the first time you’ve seen admission by Orthodox that there has been bad treatment of EC then I have to question your reading ability. Every time these accusations come up they get acknowledged, although on the other side I’ve never seen admission by EC of bad treatment of Orthodox. They play stupid games such as claiming it happened too far in the past to matter. Thankfully Rome isn’t so ignorant. Shortly after the events your complaining about, they apologized to the EC for events that happened 700 years earlier.

Congrats on helping to build an Orthodox mission. You want a medal? Is that your penance for the libel you freely commit here? I mean of all things in a thread about Catholics and Orthodox working together you take it upon yourself to engage in false attacks? You know what would have been better? Mentioning those kinds of efforts, that might have led to an actual fruitful conversation, but no, instead you go on about how the Russians are heretics (and don’t say you didn’t say that, taking “Catholic” out of the Creed would certainly make them heretics).
You act like your post was only asking about the change, it wasn’t, you asserted they dropped it completely. Why did the term change? Well, language changes over time. The Nicene Creed is different in Modern English and Middle English and even more so in Old English/Anglo-Saxon. Why did that particular word change in the Russian Creed? Excellent question, it would be interesting to look into, and we could have had a conversation on that, instead you make a claim about branding and “maybe that’s why the Russians dropped the word Catholic from the Creed”.

Anyway, it’s great we’ve had this thread, next time a Catholic talks about Orthodox standing in the way of “unity” I can point them here.

 

[Nine_Two]

Sometimes I wonder if the Lord isn’t looking down at us all, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. and just shaking His head at how much time we spend with triumphalism and trying to point out our differences seeking to feel warm and fuzzy that we’re the “real deal” while others are null and void.

Everyone in this thread loves the Lord differently. I wish we could all see each other as brothers and stop emphasizing the differences and accenting the alien we see in one another…

Who’s trying to point out differences? The EC’s are saying the EO are mass murderers or at best support mass murderers and we’re being forced to defend ourselves.

 

[Nine_Two]

That said, I honestly don’t understand why the Orthodox refuse to have full communion with us. Isn’t unity in the Church a good thing?

Because we do not share the same faith. There are many Protestant communities with open communion, yet they have no unity, and the Catholic Church does not allow them communion for this exact same reason.

Unity is a good thing, you’re correct, but we shouldn’t pretend we have it when we don’t. The EC attitude in this thread has shown exactly why we don’t.

 

[dvdjs]

Good to know that atrocities committed centuries ago don’t count as much as recent ones. In that case we just have to wait 200 years and none of these things you Eastern Catholics are holding against us will matter!

 

[dvdjs]

The EC’s are saying the EO are mass murderers or at best support mass murderers and we’re being forced to defend ourselves.

Why would you defend mass murder?

 

[angelic06]

“About those Christians who are outside the Orthodox Church, therefore, I would say: they do not yet have the full truth. Perhaps it just hasn’t been revealed to them yet, or perhaps it is our fault for not living and teaching the Orthodox Faith in a way they can understand. With such people we cannot be one in the Faith, but there is no reason why we should regard them as totally estranged or as equal to pagans (although we should not be hostile to pagans either- they also haven’t yet seen the truth!)”

(Quoted by dzheremi above)

As a Catholic (of the Latin Church), I don’t mind this at all. I would rather dialogue with a discussion partner who knows what he/she/they believe then with a fellow Catholic who doesn’t know or deliberately ignores what his/her/their own Church teaches to be revealed by Jesus Christ.

The first is sincere, the second, well…

“I wish you were hot or cold…since you are neither hot or cold but lukewarm, I will spit you out.”

Our Lord Christ (to one of the seven churches), as recorded in the Book of the Revelation to John the Divine

 

[JackQ]

I used to think Met. Hilarion was a fairly intelligent and even handed man, until I recently read his comments on the liquidation of the UGCC. Simply put, if Moscow wants to co operate with Rome, then perhaps its should decide to cooperate with us! Let us build our churches in Odessa and eastern Ukraine for our people and stop attempting to force Russian Orthodoxy on Ukrainian Greek Catholics. Then I think we can all talk about cooperation between Catholics and the Russian Orthodox.

That’s why this Roman Catholic says that we have unity already. You’re an Eastern Catholic, I’m a Roman Catholic, and we form one Church. Let’s go forward on that, and if any of the Orthodox churches want to join us that will be great.

 

[JackQ]

You are wrong to think that I am anomalous among Greek Catholics. Do you have contact with Greek Catholics and parishes or are you extrapolating from the net? And your calling me ultramontanist is a bit of joke. Perhaps there are Greek Catholics on the net who give the impression of seeing every problem as something done to us by Rome. Perhaps they even feel more “orthodox” that way. I am more willing to say that are problems are not in our stars but in ourselves - and so are the solutions to our problems. We should not have unrealistic expectations about what Rome will or will not do, nor should we let that stand as an excuse for the lack of taking matters into our own hands and shaping our own destiny. Blaming Rome looks to me like a cop out for those who like to play a melodramatic role of victim. Off the net, such folks a decided minority.

As I’ve mentioned here, and many times before at CAF, I enjoy cooperating with EOs, even when I know that it will be a one-way street. We had a Greek Catholic monk visiting here last week; after long travels, I was happy to get home and chant the akathist to the Theotokos with him on Friday. I was reluctant to mention to the people I sing with at the EO mission, because I knew that it would put them in an awkward position. However, I have a limit. And that limit aggression against Greek Catholics. I will not compromise on that. Met. Hilarion went over the line.

And this Roman Catholic stands with you, as we all should.

 

[Hesychios]

… I honestly don’t understand why the Orthodox refuse to have full communion with us. Isn’t unity in the Church a good thing?

Unity in faith is a great good thing

But because we do not believe the same things we cannot share communion. I believe your church feels the same way, although it may be expressed differently.

I think that if it were the Orthodox clamoring for communion without being willing to accept the universal jurisdiction of the Pope, Purgatory, indulgences or Papal infallibility Rome would just say ‘no’.

Orthodox generally have a higher regard for Roman Catholicism than for the Protestant churches, but the RC is not close enough in belief to share communion. It is absolutely essential that we share a common faith first, before we share communion.

I did notice that over the last few decades (particularly under Pope John Paul II) the RC is nuancing it’s theology quite a bit, and it shows somewhat in the new catechism. I think this is in part a positive influence of the Eastern Catholic churches. If the trend continues and the RC changes it’s teachings in a few areas we may yet be able to share communion.

However I don’t expect to live that long, hopefully you will.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Could you give some examples of those nuanced changes in the catholic catechism that are more and more Eastern in your opinion, Michael? Thanks. blessings, brother

Unity in faith is a great good thing

But because we do not believe the same things we cannot share communion. I believe your church feels the same way, although it may be expressed differently.

I think that if it were the Orthodox clamoring for communion without being willing to accept the universal jurisdiction of the Pope, Purgatory, indulgences or Papal infallibility Rome would just say ‘no’.

Orthodox generally have a higher regard for Roman Catholicism than for the Protestant churches, but the RC is not close enough in belief to share communion. It is absolutely essential that we share a common faith first, before we share communion.

I did notice that over the last few decades (particularly under Pope John Paul II) the RC is nuancing it’s theology quite a bit, and it shows somewhat in the new catechism. I think this is in part a positive influence of the Eastern Catholic churches. If the trend continues and the RC changes it’s teachings in a few areas we may yet be able to share communion.

However I don’t expect to live that long, hopefully you will.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m not a simpleton and most folks in here like Hesychios and the boys know me by now. I am not ignorant of our differences nor do I think them insignificant or trivial. But I do think we emphasize them so much to the point of getting snarky with each other (me included!) and so divisive that it can get in the way of charity, brotherhood between us, and the Lord’s work. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not writing off these issues as trivial junk, just saying I don’t want to get hung up on it to the point of absurdity. God bless.

I think you are being a bit to simplistic. The only way we’ve achieved unity is when other churches or Christian communities make the decision to be in union with Rome. All of the holding hands and let’s just get along attitude will never get us there. Nor will being like this Hilarion and drawing a line and say you must come to us. Russia doesn’t speak for all the Eastern Orthodox. The Ecumenical Patriarch is much more accommodating than this guy. It’s going to take a long time.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Nine, with all due respect, you point out differences on a daily basis and do so with flourish. And perhaps there is some validity to what the ECs are saying…I think when we dig into full on apologetics mode we lose intellectual honesty and go for apologetics without clarity. I’ve seen that with regard to the constant EO pointing out of atrocities by the CC but rarely do you hear an EO point out or admit to the same from the other end. We hear about the sacking of Constantinople in CAF all the time but how often do we hear about the Massacre of the Latins? It goes on and on. I think it’s easy to be selective when one becomes too “apologeticky.”

Who’s trying to point out differences? The EC’s are saying the EO are mass murderers or at best support mass murderers and we’re being forced to defend ourselves.

 

[sidbrown]

Unity in faith is a great good thing

But because we do not believe the same things we cannot share communion.

Are Orthodox united in the belief expressed in the Holy Scripture that slaves should be subject to their Masters?
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.
Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many slaves as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
Titus 2:9-10
Exhort slaves to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
1 Peter 2:18
Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Of course, I suppose that today all Orthodox do believe that slavery is wrong. However, it was not always so in the past when Orthodox clergy held slaves and believed that it was permitted by Holy Scripture. This occurred more recently, in Romania for example, with the gypsies, but I suspect it was also the case in the time of St. Paul and slightly later.
What is the point. The point is that even though Orthodox clergy and laypeople were not united in the belief of the evil of slavery, still there was sharing of Holy Communion between the two who had opposing views on this issue.
So I believe it is false to say that there cannot under any circumstances be sharing of communion if there is not complete union in what you believe to be right or wrong.
And to take a more contemporary issue, the issue of artificial birth control, there still are some Orthodox clergy who do not accept it.

 

[Hesychios]

Are Orthodox united in the belief expressed in the Holy Scripture that slaves should be subject to their Masters?
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.
Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many slaves as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
Titus 2:9-10
Exhort slaves to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
1 Peter 2:18
Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Of course, I suppose that today all Orthodox do believe that slavery is wrong. However, it was not always so in the past when Orthodox clergy held slaves and believed that it was permitted by Holy Scripture. This occurred more recently, in Romania for example, with the gypsies, but I suspect it was also the case in the time of St. Paul and slightly later.
What is the point. The point is that even though Orthodox clergy and laypeople were not united in the belief of the evil of slavery, still there was sharing of Holy Communion between the two who had opposing views on this issue.
So I believe it is false to say that there cannot under any circumstances be sharing of communion if there is not complete union in what you believe to be right or wrong.
And to take a more contemporary issue, the issue of artificial birth control, there still are some Orthodox clergy who do not accept it.

I find this an odd question, but an interesting one.

The question of slavery is not a doctrinal one. It is in the realm of morals and ethics which do not actually depend upon religious beliefs, but can be informed by them. Even atheists and pagans can take a moral stance on the subject, I would think that Christians of the past accepted the slavery around them because it was ubiquitous in the society before Christianity arrived, and something they may not have felt able to change. Hence, saint Paul’s position as recorded in his letters.

Did Christian priests own slaves? Probably some did, but if so I would hardly think it was an exclusively Orthodox phenomenon. Except for (possibly) a period in the late Roman empire Orthodox were more likely to become enslaved in their history than to actually own slaves.

For my part I have ancestors who owned slaves in the USA, and there is documentary proof of it (not many people today can admit that about their ancestors, and prove it as well). I was about fifty years old before I discovered this fact, and I am deeply ashamed, not because they were co-religionists of mine (they were not) but because they were my family, and they took the moral low road for personal gain.

I wonder what brought this question up, especially from the Catholic viewpoint. How do your personal feelings on the subject square with Dum Diversas and Romanus Pontifex ? Do you feel that there was doctrinal turmoil in your own church on this subject? I think of it as a moral lapse.

 

[Nine_Two]

Why would you defend mass murder?

Do you still beat your wife?

 

[Nine_Two]

I asked you earlier in the thread to tell me about the issues that you have that ECs should apologize for in Presov, or Lemkovina, or Zakapartskaya or Galicia. Bring up some cases and I will be happy, if there is culpability on the part of my church to seek forgiveness. But honestly, I don’t really know what you are talking about.

Funny, anyone asks you to back up anything you say you claim their research is bad and that they should go back to it. Why should I play this game with you? Since you never back up what you say I’ll give you the same message, go research it.

At any rate I think we’re done. Conversation with someone spiteful as yourself is pointless.