Most Catholic women use birth control banned by church

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1HolyCatholic-

You seem like a really nice person, and I am NOT accusing you of this, but be careful not to be holier than thou. or think that one person is a “better” Catholic than another. A self righteous, arrogant jerk who goes to church every week might be in the moral category as a Catholic who uses birth control.

Again, I am NOT calling you self righteous and arrogant! :o
Have you ever met any self righteous, arrogant jerks who go to mass every week?
 
I think questioning and doubts are normal.

The answer to the question though should not be “I know more than the Church”
Thanks.

Just to repeat myself-I am NOT trying to start an argument. Pardon the pun, but I’m just asking questions! 😉
 
So does the church require non-questioning obedience? No room at all for doubts or second thoughts?
Obedience in required. Complete understanding is not. If one does not understand something and they are troubled by it, they should seek a better understanding from the Church.
 
1HolyCatholic-

You seem like a really nice person, and I am NOT accusing you of this, but be careful not to be holier than thou. or think that one person is a “better” Catholic than another. A self righteous, arrogant jerk who goes to church every week might be in the moral category as a Catholic who uses birth control.

Again, I am NOT calling you self righteous and arrogant! :o
A Catholic who has full knowledge of Church teaching on contraception (grave matter) yet freely consents to use contraceptives is committing a mortal sin.

They’re just as Catholic as anyone else, but they’re objectively in a state of mortal sin.
 
Obedience in required. Complete understanding is not. If one does not understand something and they are troubled by it, they should seek a better understanding from the Church.
Bingo!
 
A Catholic who has full knowledge of Church teaching on contraception (grave matter) yet freely consents to use contraceptives is committing a mortal sin.

They’re just as Catholic as anyone else, but they’re objectively in a state of mortal sin.
Good to know.

Um, keep in mind I never disagreed with the teachings

And since I’m a bachelor, like I stated before, I don’t have a dog in the fight.
 
**Yes.**I became a young adult in the early 80s, and my childhood friends and I (Catholic school graduates all) heard nothing about Catholic views on human sexuality beyond the ‘wait until marriage’ and ‘abortion is a sin’ teachings. I watched a couple of friends get married right out of college, have babies in their first year of marriage, freak out for a whole host of reasons about getting pregnant again, and use ABC because they couldn’t get a lick of decent information about NFP from their local parishes. (Remember, these are the years before the interwebs.)

Happily, our parish has a NFP ministry run by a registered nurse so our kids don’t have to live in the ignorance we did.
 
So if I pray/talk to God, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and listen to my spiritual director/confessor without doing things for myself, I’m in a cult? What exactly are you trying to say man? That somehow I need to take matters into my own hands and exclude God? I understand that you agree nearly 100% but there’s always a but isn’t there?

Watch out for those Catholic buts :eek:
I’m a Catholic but…
I’m a Catholic but…
I’m a Catholic but…
LOL, yeah, OK.

What exactly am I trying to say? I’m trying to say that we are all sinners. Yeah, me, you, everyone here. I’m also trying to say that I can’t believe anyone, outside the Pope himself, follows Catholic teaching, 100%, 100% of the time. If you think that, well, you need a reality check my friend. As far as my cult reference? Didn’t mean to offend anyone with that, but frankly, it’s true. Listen to what you just asked regarding doing things for yourself. If you truly NEVER do things for yourself, and ONLY follow the direction of your spiritual director, the Church, or any man currently living on earth for that matter, yes, I’d say that is fairly cult like. I too pray, read the Catechism and Bible daily. I have a regular confessor\spiritual director etc. I try my best to follow the teachings and direction given to me, but I’m sorry, there are times I simply don’t. If that makes me a heretic, or a number of other things mentioned in this thread, well, I guess that’s what I am then.

I’m a Catholic but… I’m also human…
 
Obedience in required. Complete understanding is not. If one does not understand something and they are troubled by it, they should seek a better understanding from the Church.
What if say someone doesn’t completely understand and they try to seek a better understanding but ultimately after years of praying about it, seeking advice etc, decide to give up on that understanding and continue on in an objective sin? Saying to themselves it’s not a sin to me. Are they still sinning even if their conscience told them it’s ok?
 
LOL, yeah, OK.

What exactly am I trying to say? I’m trying to say that we are all sinners. Yeah, me, you, everyone here. I’m also trying to say that I can’t believe anyone, outside the Pope himself, follows Catholic teaching, 100%, 100% of the time. If you think that, well, you need a reality check my friend. As far as my cult reference? Didn’t mean to offend anyone with that, but frankly, it’s true. Listen to what you just asked regarding doing things for yourself. If you truly NEVER do things for yourself, and ONLY follow the direction of your spiritual director, the Church, or any man currently living on earth for that matter, yes, I’d say that is fairly cult like. I too pray, read the Catechism and Bible daily. I have a regular confessor\spiritual director etc. I try my best to follow the teachings and direction given to me, but I’m sorry, there are times I simply don’t. If that makes me a heretic, or a number of other things mentioned in this thread, well, I guess that’s what I am then.

I’m a Catholic but… I’m also human…
You’re confusing following the teaching of the Church in practice with the denial of the teaching of the Church.


  1. *]It’s one thing to knowingly disobey the Church teaching on artificial contraception which is a sin.
    *]It’s another thing altogether to deny the Church teaching on artificial contraception, for that is the denial of sin. This is sinning against faith.

    One and two are both sins but they aren’t the same sin.
 
LOL, yeah, OK.

What exactly am I trying to say? I’m trying to say that we are all sinners. Yeah, me, you, everyone here. I’m also trying to say that I can’t believe anyone, outside the Pope himself, follows Catholic teaching, 100%, 100% of the time.
There is a difference between sinning and dissent. For example somebody may commit murder, tell a lie, commit a sin of lust, yet not deny (after the fact) that it was a sinful behavior or that they disagree with the Church and that it doesn’t apply to them. So yes we are all sinners, but not all dissenters. We sin, we go to confession and try not to sin again.
 
So does the church require non-questioning obedience? No room at all for doubts or second thoughts?
The Church requires the following:

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.
If one’s conscience is not formed to agree with the teachings of the Church, then one needs to continue the formation of his/her conscience.
Can. 227 The lay Christian faithful have the right to have recognized that freedom which all citizens have in the affairs of the earthly city. When using that same freedom, however, they are to take care that their actions are imbued with the spirit of the gospel and are to heed the doctrine set forth by the magisterium of the Church. In matters of opinion, moreover, they are to avoid setting forth their own opinion as the doctrine of the Church.
If that person has a private doubt or question, that’s one thing. But that person, even a lay person, should not ever try to foist his/her personal understanding as being the teaching of the Church or to say that he/she is right and the Church is wrong. Not on matters of doctrine.

But keep in mind that there is a difference between assent and/or submission of the will in matters of doctrine and those areas of application of that doctrine in a technical sense.

For example, a lay Catholic would not be free to question the doctrine about the need to feed the poor. However, a lay Catholic would be perfectly free to exercise prudential judgment in how that mandate is carried out. Be it through private charities, through inidividual initiative, or however. (This example is very over-simplified, as there are matters of social doctrine that provide us other guidance…)

Or, as another example, the Church has a doctrine that human life begins at the moment of fertilization and this life is sacred and inviolable. Therefore, doctrinally, all Catholics must assent to be against abortion. But how to rid the country of abortion is, to a degree, prudential.
 
LOL, yeah, OK.

What exactly am I trying to say? I’m trying to say that we are all sinners. Yeah, me, you, everyone here. I’m also trying to say that I can’t believe anyone, outside the Pope himself, follows Catholic teaching, 100%, 100% of the time. If you think that, well, you need a reality check my friend. As far as my cult reference? Didn’t mean to offend anyone with that, but frankly, it’s true. Listen to what you just asked regarding doing things for yourself. If you truly NEVER do things for yourself, and ONLY follow the direction of your spiritual director, the Church, or any man currently living on earth for that matter, yes, I’d say that is fairly cult like. I too pray, read the Catechism and Bible daily. I have a regular confessor\spiritual director etc. I try my best to follow the teachings and direction given to me, but I’m sorry, there are times I simply don’t. If that makes me a heretic, or a number of other things mentioned in this thread, well, I guess that’s what I am then.

I’m a Catholic but… I’m also human…
So nice for you to call shots out on me on a forum eh? How exactly is it that you say you know me on the forums by saying I need a reality check my friend? How exactly do you get the nerve to sit there typing on keyboard and tell me I don’t do things for myself etc. Whatever, believe what you want then. I guess it makes you feel good to look all pious on the forums? It’s amazing how rude people can be online and think nothing of it. I guess I’m an idiot cult Catholic who can’t do anything for myself according to you on a forum?
 
What if say someone doesn’t completely understand and they try to seek a better understanding but ultimately after years of praying about it, seeking advice etc, decide to give up on that understanding and continue on in an objective sin? Saying to themselves it’s not a sin to me. Are they still sinning even if their conscience told them it’s ok?
Not sure what you are getting at. My post said obedience is required. If they do not understand they still have to be obedient.

If something is an objective sin, it is always a sin. If somebody is not conscience of the fact that it is a sin, it is still a sin. Their moral culpability may be lessened (even to zero) by their ignorance or by other circumstances but the sin is still a sin.
 
What I find interesting from the NSFG data is that the RC women who attend church once a week and say that religion is important in their lives are much more likely to choose sterilization as their contraception of choice. The reason for this is that sterilization is a one-time event and so the couple sterilizes themselves, confesses to a priest, and is then is back in the state of grace for the weekend.

It shows that the teaching of the Church is something that weighs heavily on a lot of couples’ hearts. They don’t have the courage to follow the teaching come what may, but at the same time they still don’t want to break away from the Church or live with a guilty conscience
What it shows more so to me is that people aren’t aware that presuming upon God’s mercy in this way is a grave sin in and of itself, and that unless this sin is confessed alongside the more serious sin of sterilisation then neither sin is forgiven.

The cheek of planning to seek absolution before one has even sinned, as if God can’t see through such an obvious ruse!

What sensible wife would forgive her husband if he PLANNED to do something that really hurt her and then planned at the same time to buy her a nice bunch of flowers or something to ‘make up for it’?
 
The Church requires the following:

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.
If one’s conscience is not formed to agree with the teachings of the Church, then one needs to continue the formation of his/her conscience.
Can. 227 The lay Christian faithful have the right to have recognized that freedom which all citizens have in the affairs of the earthly city. When using that same freedom, however, they are to take care that their actions are imbued with the spirit of the gospel and are to heed the doctrine set forth by the magisterium of the Church. In matters of opinion, moreover, they are to avoid setting forth their own opinion as the doctrine of the Church.
If that person has a private doubt or question, that’s one thing. But that person, even a lay person, should not ever try to foist his/her personal understanding as being the teaching of the Church or to say that he/she is right and the Church is wrong. Not on matters of doctrine.

But keep in mind that there is a difference between assent and/or submission of the will in matters of doctrine and those areas of application of that doctrine in a technical sense.

For example, a lay Catholic would not be free to question the doctrine about the need to feed the poor. However, a lay Catholic would be perfectly free to exercise prudential judgment in how that mandate is carried out. Be it through private charities, through individual initiative, or however. (This example is very over-simplified, as there are matters of social doctrine that provide us other guidance…)

Or, as another example, the Church has a doctrine that human life begins at the moment of fertilization and this life is sacred and inviolable. Therefore, doctrinally, all Catholics must assent to be against abortion. But how to rid the country of abortion is, to a degree, prudential.
Well, I appreciate this-but I all this quoting of the church rules are sort of confusing. :o
 
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