Most common abuse at mass today.

[Island_Oak]

Agomemnon:

What arrogance and ignorace combined into one response.
Perhaps if you would READ the Council documents…not one of the abuses I mentioned were legitimized by Vatican II. Not ONE!

Communion in the Hand was continually condemned by Pope Paul VI and his capitulation to the abuse by granting an indult (but still claiming we are to recieve as the universal norm communion on the tongue) set the stage. Pope Paul VI warned that a loss of faith and reverence could result in communion in the hand. JPII has continually stated that the Universal norm for reception of communion is on the tongue.

Arrogance is apparently not is short supply in this thread. You yourself state above that two Popes have acceded to the practice of communion in the hand. Yes–there are cautions about its use or overuse–however declaring one method a norm does NOT mean that the legitimately recognized alternative is an evil or an abuse. To suggest that a Pope “capitulated to an abuse” in authorizing a liturgical practice at best evidences a brazen disobedience and disrespect and at worse borders on heresy.

Inaestimable Donum, Altae Sunt and ALL POPES and PATRIARCHS that have ever stated anything on girls/women serving has always been condemned as an evil practice and contrary to the Liturgy. JPII falls down and breaks a hip and ‘magically’ some prelates pushes an abuse causing document. By the way…take a look at the supposed indult and its restrictions…not one could be permitted in the USA.NOT ONE.
Don’t complain about the shortage of priests when you sanction the destruction of the recruiting and training ground.

Once again, your characterization and insertion of your judgement in lieu of that of the church leadership is shocking and wrong. In the spring of 1994, the Congress for Divine Worship and Sacraments issued “Redemptionis Sacramentum” as an official interpretation of Canon 230, Para. 2. In this document the Holy See permitted bishops the option of allowing women and/or girls to serve as acolytes (altar servers) stating the practice is allowed, but not required nor regarded as mandatory. The observance of this norm and others listed in the letter are not optional. The document states “the observance of norms published by the authority of the Church requires the conformity of thought, of word of external action and application of the heart. A merely external observation would obviously be contrary to the nature of the sacred liturgy…”(RS, 5)

And for EMHC’s…Inaestimable Donum and the RS both confirm that its regularized use is an abuse.

don’t think anyone was claiming that over use of this norm was not an abuse. However, it’s mere use, as was suggested by the poster to whom I was responding, can not be insinuated to be an abuse.

…my right and obligation to voice my concerns on such things as the liturgy and to call out against abuse and errors. I’m following Vatican II in that regard.

IMHO the tone of your post suggests a blurred distinction between “voicing concerns” and disobedience.

 

[cleofet]

Chris Jacobsen:

None of the things listed are abuses.

Here are some of the abuses that have occurred around here:

The laity giving the sermons.

Instead of a sermon, having a discussion period.

The priest concelebrating mass with a woman Anglican priest.

A loaf of regular bread being used for communion.

Neither the priest or Eucharistic ministers distributing communion. Rather the congregation giving communion to each other.

The words of the readings and of the mass being changed to conform to the feminist agenda.

Use of altar girls before it was legal.

No crucifix and no holy water in the church.

Invalid baptisms because the improper formula was used. Again, I assume to promote the feminist agenda.

Liturgical dancing.

Not around here but in Taylor Falls, Minnesota. The tabernacle being placed in a “place of honor”. The " place of honor being the back of the coat closet.

Around here they just show they despise Jesus by placing the tabernacle in some grungie little room that no one ever visits.

Refusing to kneel from the end of the Sanctus to the beginning of the Pater Noster. And removing the kneelers from the church.

Applause in church.

And the attack of liturgy on the congregation and on the Catholic faith only promises to get more vile and vicious.

I challenge those who keep saying that is a mortal sin on miss Mass on Sunday to put an end to the abuse. All they do is increase the incredible hopelessness of American Catholicism.

Oh my gosh! Most of these things are unbelievable. There must be someone to take this all too. There are a couple that happen in our Parish like applause at the end of the closing hymn but most of these others just floor me. I will pray that these abuses stop in your parish and any other parish that they are happening in. Don’t stop going to Sunday Mass though. Maybe find another Parish where they have the respect for our Lord that we all should have.

 

[johnq]

davy39:

I believe that leaving right after communion with out a good reason, (emergency, etc) is the most widespread. Sometimes the church looks half-empty after communion. I think that’s like telling Jesus that you don’t have any more time for him, so see you later. Very, very disrespectful.

Have you ever heard this one?

Who was the first person to leave mass early?

Judas

 

[Strider]

Island Oak:

Who’da thunk it…Jesus himself engaged in liturgical abuse. Imagine the GALL of using REAL BREAD, in a ritual that recreates and memorializes the events of the Last Supper, in the same manner our Lord did. What IS this world coming to?!?

The following is G.I.R.M., Paragraph 320
“The bread for celebrating the Eucharist must be made only from wheat, must be recently baked, and, according to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, must be unleavened.”

This is grave. I know of two families, I think both lived near the east coast, who had children with celiac disease (an alergic reaction to wheat gluten). They both requested hosts made of rice or some other grain.
The Church refused on the basis that she cannot do anything different from Christ. The dioceses offered to have the priests prepare a special chalice containing only the Precious Blood for the kids (no fragment of Host), but the families were apparently more interested in making the 6:00 news than remaining Catholic. I know one famly left and joined a fundamental denomination and I believe the other family left the Church also.
Some things are grave (unleavened bread, male only priesthood), and others, (holding hands during the Our Father, [which, by the way, I personally despise]), are not.

The horrendous list of abuses by Chris Jacobsen is truly horrifying.
I would have discussed them with the priest then, assuming no correction, would have written the priest a letter.
I would have sent a copy of his response, or non-response, to the diocesan bishop.
If the reply from the bishopi was non-existent or unsatisfactory, I would have forwarded everything to both the Papal Nuncio in 'Washington DC and the Congregation for the Discipline of the
Sacraments.
I would NOT tolerate any one of them. It would not be a Catholic Mass if they occurred.

 

[rlg94086]

I agree with other posters who explained that a lot of these items, while annoying, are not abuses. Here’s the worst (actual abuses) I experienced.

In 1990, while I was going through RCIA, my parish priest sent me up to Tacoma for a NPM Cantor school. The teachers (a cantor expert and a composer, both shall remain anonymous in this post), had a little “Mass” at the end of school.

Cantor expert presided…not a priest…wearing a traditional jewish prayer shawl.

Regular bread was used.

I was invited to participate because ‘everyone is welcome’.

Of course, it was invalid, but as someone just entering the Church, I was confused…these were expert Catholics! Every time I sing one of the composer’s songs in Church I cringe. The Cantor expert is a Director for the Office of Worship somewhere in the US. :bigyikes:

It took moving to Colorado to see a closer representation (they do the hand-holding thing, Priest walking around during homily, etc.) before I realized what I engaged in. What surprised me is that, looking back on it, some of the other participants in the school seemed very orthodox (the first time I saw a scapular…one of the big ones…was on the roommate I had as he prayed at night). I can’t recall if they were present during the “Mass”.

God bless,

Robert.

 

[Quo_Vadis]

My biggest complaint is people showing up in shabby attire. To many people are showing up in shorts or blue jeans with tee shirts.

 

[Podo2004]

Nicole:

How about the 16 EM’s walking up right after the sign of peace and standing behind the Priest on the altar while he continues the prayers.

Also, I really dislike the Pastoral Counselor or other non-Priest or Deacon giving the homily and trying to say it’s a talk so it’s OK. It is against the rules for anyone other than a Priest or Deacon to give the homily right?

I also don’t like the Priest singing the Gospel when it is the Beatitudes, walking all around off the altar during the homily, doing a puppet play after Communion, or passing out the Precious Blood two at at a time to the 16 EMs.

I ended up leaving my old Parish because of all of this though, so now I don’t have to deal with any of it.

Nicole/QUOTE/
That’s what’s sad about tradtionalists, they think everything is wrong with the new mass. What about liturgical abuses in the tridentine mass?
16 EMs can walk in back of the priest while he is saying prayers. The pastoral council take part in the homily but not give it entirely, he can walk off the altar during his homily. If he does a puppet play after communion or during his homily, he could be trying to prove a point or use them as symbols for what he is teaching that particulier weekend.
I don’t understand, I’m still young and learning but i also realise that those aren’t abuses, just stuff that you guys don’t like. You can reverant but still do that too.
Podo

 

[TheGarg]

Joan M:

For me, there are three very, very common abuses -

1. The stupid, childish rubbish of holding hands at the Our Father - ever look at the zig-zag lines of people leaning forward and backward to hold the hands of people in other pews? Besides that, it sort of makes the hand-shake at the Sign of Peace less than it should be, since holding hands is much more intimate than shaking hands.

If you have a disagreement with something, please post without the use of unnecessary adjectives. Even if I am ignorant as to a good reason why it would be bad to hold hands during the “Our Father”, that does not mean I am stupid or childish.
**I love the fact that we hold hands during that part of the Mass, but if the Pope says not to, I would comply, for I submit freely to the Church. **
**So in the future, please try to be informative, not hateful. IF this you cannot give me a valid reason from Rome{CCC}, and your basis for this belief is from your own opinoin, please do not reply. **
**Due to your uncompassionate statement, I am not interested in your opinoin anymore. **

Peace of the Lord be with you all.

 

[Bill_A]

Holding hands is a symbol of unity in the Catholic church. As we have moved away from a small mass with 12 people, we are now ina large very intimidating building with 100s of people we dont know. It is up to us to offer aign of peace in Chritian brotherhood as an act of communion.

However as it is also disruptive, I most often dont do it. Except maybe at a youth mass.

As we have moved through Vatican II in a period of 35 years or so. It has been to much of a change for most older people. The changes should have been grandfathered in. I am not sure WHY the COB brought in Alter Girls and it has pretty much killed off the Alter boys getting to wear anymore Cassoks but we have to remember the Cassoks where brought in During the Midevil times and maybe they too must go.

ANy form of CHanging the mass, I know at My local parish in addition to all the other stuff goes on. The Pastor Began adminstering communion to the alter boys and ECM beyond the communion rail. When the priests makes changes to the mass that are unfamiliar to the parish, such as Byzantine Rites in Novous ordus mass or integreted Latin. Even though such things are in the spirit of Vatican II. It may prepresent a form of Liturgical abuse. Especially if it Angers the Cardinal.

I try to be most accomidating in spirit to the Priest doing the mass. I try to think, he is a pios person and only trying to do his job. It does at its best break the normalcy at mass and I also find it frustrating. But because it does not outright offer a deliberate disturbance at mass. Such as a Phone Ringing. I have put it on the back burner.

 

[WhiteDove]

If you have a disagreement with something, please post without the use of
unnecessary adjectives. Even if I am ignorant as to a good reason why it would be bad to hold hands during the “Our Father”, that does not mean I am stupid or childish.
**I love the fact that we hold hands during that part of the Mass, but if the Pope says not to, I would comply, for I submit freely to the Church. **
**So in the future, please try to be informative, not hateful. IF this you cannot give me a valid reason from Rome{CCC}, and your basis for this belief is from your own opinoin, please do not reply. **
**Due to your uncompassionate statement, I am not interested in your opinoin anymore. **

Peace of the Lord be with you all.

I agree. Different folks have different attitudes towards this practise, I think it’s unneccessary to use the words stupid and childish. Very uncharitable, IMO. Let’s not do this on the Catholic Forum, but instead show kindness and respect to one another, even when we disagree.

 

[Agomemnon]

Since people don’t seem to want to even read what the Popes have written about in regards to the liturgy and how it is to be celebrated it becomes difficult to argue.

Ineastimble Donum by John Paul II - “women/girls may not act as servers”
Canon Law - still hasn’t changed…“woman are not to enter the sanctuary”

Every Missal ever promulgated either assumed the above or had it explicilty stated like the Missal of Pope Pius V.

Pope John Paul II THIS YEAR - stated to the Bishops of the world that it is his intention that the Bishops follow the Noble(Holy) Tradition of only men and boys serving the altar and that it is to be LAUDIBLY retained. Woman can never be alcolytes.

It is also noted that NO BISHOP can force the use(abuse) upon any priest and that if the supposed ‘indult’ was followed it would never be in a public mass and the individual priest ( if unable to find boys or men) would then request this permission for this particalar instance for an exception - which never has to be given but can only be given for that occasion. Have you ever seen this followed? If not…then its an abuse??!

Why are the intentions and instruction of the Pope always ignored?

The Pope has also stated that the tabernacle belongs in the sanctuary (upon the altar). Is this intention being followed?

The Pope has also stated that altar rails were not to be removed. Has this been done?

Why does every ‘exception’ become the rule in America?

Perhaps its time to end the 40 years of the unmitigated failure of liturgical renewal and restore Old Mass.

 

[sweetchuck]

I think it’s tragic that EVERYBODY goes to communion, but I NEVER have to wait in line for our parish’s weekly confession. Hmmmm. Hundreds of parishioners take communion each week, 10-20 confess each Saturday (and that is a generous estimation). Do the math.

There’s either a lot of righteous people where I live or there are lots of people who don’t know what they’re receiving in the Eucharist. Call me a cynic, but I think the situation is dire.

…and the cellphone thing annoys me too. If people can’t love God enough to go 1 hour without their cellphones, why would they want to go to church? If people have priorities greater than God, church is an utter waste of time for them, they have already chosen.

Who would call a cellphone on a Sunday morning anyway? Granted, people who leave their cellphones on in church are ignorant and extremely discourteous, but nearly equally so would be the person on the other line.

 

[Joan_M]

If you have a disagreement with something, please post without the use of
unnecessary adjectives. Even if I am ignorant as to a good reason why it would be bad to hold hands during the “Our Father”, that does not mean I am stupid or childish.
**I love the fact that we hold hands during that part of the Mass, but if the Pope says not to, I would comply, for I submit freely to the Church. **
**So in the future, please try to be informative, not hateful. IF this you cannot give me a valid reason from Rome{CCC}, and your basis for this belief is from your own opinoin, please do not reply. **
**Due to your uncompassionate statement, I am not interested in your opinoin anymore. **

Peace of the Lord be with you all.

Actually the Pope (through his dicasteries in Rome) said not to in 1974. This practice was condemned in the Noticias (sp? - published in Latin). So, we are not to do this.

Not everything is contained in the CCC - this is Liturgy. The norms for the Liturgy is the GIRM, and that does not tell us what we should not do, only what we should do. It does not tell us to hold hands, therefore, we should not do that.

And I have every right to state my opinions. I am not being “hateful” . Far too many people seem to think that if someone has an opinion different from theirs, and state that opinion, that they are being “hateful” or “offensive”. That is just not true. So my opinion is different from yours. So what! You’re entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine. Stating my opinion is neither hateful nor offensive.

I do not, and will not hold hands at the Our Father because, (1) Rome condemned it since 1974; and (2) the GIRM does not tell us to do it. Based on (1) and (2), I believe that those who know these and still hold hands, are disobeying the Church.

Holidng hands is not, and never has been, a symbol of unity in the Church. If any of you believe it is, kindly give documentary proof of this.

 

[Bill_A]

sweetchuck:

I think it’s tragic that EVERYBODY goes to communion, but I NEVER have to wait in line for our parish’s weekly confession. Hmmmm. Hundreds of parishioners take communion each week, 10-20 confess each Saturday (and that is a generous estimation). Do the math.

There’s either a lot of righteous people where I live or there are lots of people who don’t know what they’re receiving in the Eucharist. Call me a cynic, but I think the situation is dire.

…and the cellphone thing annoys me too. If people can’t love God enough to go 1 hour without their cellphones, why would they want to go to church? If people have priorities greater than God, church is an utter waste of time for them, they have already chosen.

Who would call a cellphone on a Sunday morning anyway? Granted, people who leave their cellphones on in church are ignorant and extremely discourteous, but nearly equally so would be the person on the other line.

Here you see how everyone thinks differently. I dont goto Communion every week either. When it comes to confession. The Priest, dont have very many anymore. Offers confession for 15 minutes or so saturday night at 4:30. 10 or 20 people run in and than run out. It is easier for me to lop all my communions and COnffesions together and than treat weekly mass as a service and pray for the other peole in church during communion.

Today at church, mass was full for CHristmas. Everyone went to mass but I can certainly tell you that everyone did not goto Communion, went to confession. AS it would take 6 Confessionals and one week 40 hours to hear all the confessions.

 

[TheGarg]

Joan M:

And I have every right to state my opinions. I am not being “hateful”

Yes you do have that right, and you also have a right to either

A) state them in a tactfull manner, with some degree of professionalism, or politeness. This would lead to some real change, making someone want to consider what you say.

or you can

B) state your opinion like you did, in a demeaning, disrespectful way, by using HATEFUL terms such as STUPID or CHILDISH. Making somone not want to consider words filled with malice.

I dont mind being called “misinformed”, “ignorant”, “mislead”, etc. These aren’t personal attacks. The way you came across IS a personal attack, and now you have informed me you do not care.

I pray for the healing of your anger and discontent with your fellow Man, and that the Peace of the Lord be with you and allow you to be more loving.

Christ’s Love

 

[Lonevoice]

sweetchuck:

I think it’s tragic that EVERYBODY goes to communion, but I NEVER have to wait in line for our parish’s weekly confession. Hmmmm. Hundreds of parishioners take communion each week, 10-20 confess each Saturday (and that is a generous estimation). Do the math.

There’s either a lot of righteous people where I live or there are lots of people who don’t know what they’re receiving in the Eucharist. Call me a cynic, but I think the situation is dire.

…and the cellphone thing annoys me too. If people can’t love God enough to go 1 hour without their cellphones, why would they want to go to church? If people have priorities greater than God, church is an utter waste of time for them, they have already chosen.

Who would call a cellphone on a Sunday morning anyway? Granted, people who leave their cellphones on in church are ignorant and extremely discourteous, but nearly equally so would be the person on the other line.

I’m with you on this, friend. I can go in, reflect, confess, pray my penance, and get out in less than a half hour most weeks. On the other hand, Communion has much longer lines. Like you, I wonder if they just don’t realize what/who, they are receiving.

I don’t mean to sound self-righteous, but that does bother me.

As for the cell phones, don’t get me started.

 

[WhiteDove]

I agree, it’s not the content of what you said, Joan, but the way you said it. Just try and use gentler and more tactful speech, and probably it will be taken better.

My workplace is trying to encourage better communications amongst us. They tell us to use the “I” words. State how it make you feel, such as “It makes me feel silly and put on the spot when someone tries to hold my hand”, “I really wish the hierarchy would address this handholding once and for all, because people are so confused about it” “It feels sort of childish to me when I hold someone’s hand at Mass, and it distracts me from the Liturgy” “I feel irritated by handholding. It annoys me and I wish people understood that it’s not in the GIRM”

 

[katybird]

My friend forgot to turn off his cell phone and he was soooo embarrased and in such a hurry to turn it off! He didn’t mean any harm and that could happen to anyone. I’ve never heard it, otherwise, at my church.

There’s a parish with an indult TLM and they have all these freaky newspapers lying about the back of the sanctuary. One of them had all this crazy stuff about Masonic plots and said JPII was being drugged and controlled by Jesuits or some such nonsense. I don’t consider that a liturgical abuse, but I find those things very disturbing and ugly. I once popped my head into the local seda vacantist TLM church and there were all these things on the bulletin boards about how Jews really ARE guilty of killing Jesus. I think those people are at least as nasty as the “let’s ordain lesbians and dance around the altar” types.

 

[Adam_Costanzo]

ALL OF THE ABOVE. :banghead: I hate this city

 

[luke2219]

puzzleannie:

none of the choices listed is a liturgical abuse, although many are abuses of etiquette. a liturgical abuse is a persistant, deliberate situation where the celebrant disregards the rubrics and does his own thing out of motives of pride and rebellion. The most common on the part of the priest is changing the words of the parts of Mass which allow no variation. On the part of the congregation it is unworthy reception of the Eucharist.

Ditto. That’s just what I was going to say. Speaking of cell phones going off. A friend of mine was receiving Communion kneeling at an alter rail and his cell phone when off at that exact moment. He cursed in astonishment right before receiving and at the same time turned red from head to toe. That is embarrasing. Also I was at a daily mass in a small chapel once and a cell phone started ringing. Everyone was looking around a checking their phones, but it turns out, it was the priest’s phone! Thought that was funny.

Pax et bonum