Most common abuse at mass today.

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Some abuses are real, some are made up by people for actions they don’t like.

I am a member of a very progressive parish and we few, if any, of the legitimate issues raised here.

As for "cutting in line going to commmunion’ that proves my point that we have a certain element of the Church that is a little loose in using the term “abuse”.

in fact, the Church’s view is that practices that draw attention to who is receiving and who is not such as lining people up row by row is an abuse.
 
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Agomemnon:
Since people don’t seem to want to even read what the Popes have written about in regards to the liturgy and how it is to be celebrated it becomes difficult to argue.

Ineastimble Donum by John Paul II - “women/girls may not act as servers”
Canon Law - still hasn’t changed…“woman are not to enter the sanctuary”

Every Missal ever promulgated either assumed the above or had it explicilty stated like the Missal of Pope Pius V.

Pope John Paul II THIS YEAR - stated to the Bishops of the world that it is his intention that the Bishops follow the Noble(Holy) Tradition of only men and boys serving the altar and that it is to be LAUDIBLY retained. Woman can never be alcolytes.

It is also noted that NO BISHOP can force the use(abuse) upon any priest and that if the supposed ‘indult’ was followed it would never be in a public mass and the individual priest ( if unable to find boys or men) would then request this permission for this particalar instance for an exception - which never has to be given but can only be given for that occasion. Have you ever seen this followed? If not…then its an abuse??!

Why are the intentions and instruction of the Pope always ignored?

The Pope has also stated that the tabernacle belongs in the sanctuary (upon the altar). Is this intention being followed?

The Pope has also stated that altar rails were not to be removed. Has this been done?

Why does every ‘exception’ become the rule in America?

Perhaps its time to end the 40 years of the unmitigated failure of liturgical renewal and restore Old Mass.
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Since we are not all equally well-read on these topics–could you PLEASE provide a citation or document name in which these statements of JP II can be found and verified. Your statements about women/girls being forbidden to serve publicly as acolytes directly contradicts the citation I provided in my earlier post and I find it difficult to believe that the Vatican has adopted two, mutually exclusive positions on this issue. In addition, two of your statements above 1) that bishops cannot require a local priest to use female acolytes and 2) that the preference for employing boys/young men as acolytes remains…are true. However, neither permissive statement negates the preceding statement in Redemptionis Sacramentum authorizing the option of using female acolytes. Redemptionis Sacramentum received final approval from Pope John Paul II on March 19, 1994 and it was officially published by the Vatican on April 23, 1994. If you are aware of a more recent and contradictory authority please inform us. Otherwise you are publishing false information.
 
Its well known. The Pope Fell down and broke his hip. The next week we had alter girls in church.

The Administration of Acolytes in the church was a training program of sorts for vocations to the priesthood.
 
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Bill_A:
Its well known. The Pope Fell down and broke his hip. The next week we had alter girls in church.

The Administration of Acolytes in the church was a training program of sorts for vocations to the priesthood.
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So you’re suggesting that when he approved and adopted the teaching on female acolytes promulgated by the bishops the Pope was a) incompetent b) misguided c) unconscious d) all of the above?
 
As for cell phones… I have forgotten more than once to turn mine off. Thankfully, it’s never gone off, but I like always have to remember to turn it off as I sit down for the first reading. It’s really bad. Anyway, y’all have debated the whole holding hands thing over and over, and it needs to die. It doesn’t need to be argued in every thread. As for liturgical abuses that get on my nerves…

moveable altar
priests changing the words to the prayers
“for the praise and glory of God’s name, for our good and the good of all God’s church”
“it is right to give God thanks and praise”
lay people proclaiming the Gospel
lay people reaching into the ciborium
no kneeling
no bowing at appropriate times
gender neutral mass parts (blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord)
gathering around the altar at daily mass
changing the words to common hymns to make them gender-neutral

I’m sure there’s more, but I can’t think of them now. Sad part- I work in liturgy. I guess I really need to just speak up more, but the superiors NEVER listen. any ideas?

jp2fan
 
Island Oak:
So you’re suggesting that when he approved and adopted the teaching on female acolytes promulgated by the bishops the Pope was a) incompetent b) misguided c) unconscious d) all of the above?
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No, I think he means someone pushed him. probably a femanazi.
 
It used to altar boys were one way to foster vocations to the priesthood. With the use of girl altar boys we see less boys wanting to be part of that service. Our culture wants to make everything unisex.
 
People do bring WAY too much stuff for their kids. It’s God time, not play time. If you bring them up with toys in Church, they don’t get the idea of the sacredness of it all.
 
Can we not use the term “girl altar boys”? It doesn’t make any sense. I know, you think “well it makes about as much sense as having them,” but I think it’s trite. As for families bringing too many toys and stuff, I say as long as the toys don’t make any noise, ignore it! At least they’re at Church! My parents have 5 kids. Try bringing 5 kids, 2 ADD, 1 autistic, to Mass without having them disturb the whole congregation. I’m telling you, we had our share of books and toys. Please try not to judge when you don’t know the situation.

my 2 cents,
jp2fan
 
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fix:
It used to altar boys were one way to foster vocations to the priesthood. With the use of girl altar boys we see less boys wanting to be part of that service. Our culture wants to make everything unisex.
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right. that is exactly what the Catholic church needs – more priests that think girls are so yucky they woudl reject the chance to serve at the altar rather than be with one.

Maybe th eguys investigting the seminaries should get a report on this.
 
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katherine2:
right. that is exactly what the Catholic church needs – more priests that think girls are so yucky they woudl reject the chance to serve at the altar rather than be with one.

Maybe th eguys investigting the seminaries should get a report on this.
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We are talking of boys, not men. The age cohort that are servers do not need to be PCized by the radical feministas. They should have a lib free zone for a few years.

I know men and women are totally interchangeable. We can see how vocations are taking off since the left wing has been in charge…
 
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fix:
We are talking of boys, not men. The age cohort that are servers do not need to be PCized by the radical feministas. They should have a lib free zone for a few years.

I know men and women are totally interchangeable. We can see how vocations are taking off since the left wing has been in charge…
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you do have a problem with women. Sad.
 
Try attending the Traditional Latin Mass, which is making a huge comeback for this reason, and for the reason that it was the first Mass as said for 1962 years before Vatican II and the liberalization and the morals of the church went out the window, as did about 60% of the Catholics who stopped going to Mass altogether, as the Mass today has No reverence, no matter how you cut it
 
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katherine2:
you do have a problem with women. Sad.
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I have a problem with those who want novely for novelty sake. I have a problem with heterodoxy. I have a problem with women and men who think there may be priestesses in the Church some day.
 
fix, you’re being ridiculous. Noone here is advocating priestesses, and I would reckon that noone here wants them. You need to humble yourself and realize that your posts are bordering on arrogance. And speaking of heterodoxy…regardless of whether or not you think there’s some big conspiracy about altar girls, orthodoxy means following what the Church says. Church says girls can serve, then girls can serve. Move on please.

jp2fan
 
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jp2fan:
fix, you’re being ridiculous. Noone here is advocating priestesses, and I would reckon that noone here wants them. You need to humble yourself and realize that your posts are bordering on arrogance. And speaking of heterodoxy…regardless of whether or not you think there’s some big conspiracy about altar girls, orthodoxy means following what the Church says. Church says girls can serve, then girls can serve. Move on please.

jp2fan
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I could say the same to you regarding arrogance, friend. Did the use of female servers begin with the permission of Rome? My opinion about female serves is legitimate. Each priest has the authority to decide if he will allow them. So, the Church does allow it, but not without qualification.

We have an obligation to make our needs known to those in authority. Heterodoxy is a big problem today. To downplay it is absurd.
 
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fix:
I could say the same to you regarding arrogance, friend. Did the use of female servers begin with the permission of Rome? My opinion about female serves is legitimate. Each priest has the authority to decide if he will allow them. So, the Church does allow it, but not without qualification.

We have an obligation to make our needs known to those in authority. Heterodoxy is a big problem today. To downplay it is absurd.
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Don’t back away from your previous post so quickly. Your claim was that “The age cohort that are servers do not need to be PCized by the radical feministas. They should have a lib free zone for a few years.”

I think that someone who presumes that pious young girls serving at the altar are “radical feministas”, out to PC" the young men they serve with and create a “lib zone” goes far beyond a temperate making of one’s needs known. It indicates to me an unnatural problem with women.
 
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katherine2:
Don’t back away from your previous post so quickly. Your claim was that “The age cohort that are servers do not need to be PCized by the radical feministas. They should have a lib free zone for a few years.”

I think that someone who presumes that pious young girls serving at the altar are “radical feministas”, out to PC" the young men they serve with and create a “lib zone” goes far beyond a temperate making of one’s needs known. It indicates to me an unnatural problem with women.
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I am not backing away from my comment. There is a current of radical feminism that is in our culture and our Church. My original point was that less boys want to be servers with the influx of girls. This is no earth shattering revelation. I think I even posted an article of this site a few months ago about this topic.

Does my hyperbole mean every single instance of a female altar server is about a radical agenda? No, but it does start to change a culture and that is what the radicals want.

BTW, did the female servers start with Rome’s permission, or is it like holding hands at the our Father. Meaning a few libs foist novelty on the rest of us claiming the mass is their private property.

BTW, why does your friend call me arrogant when I speak my mind and you insinuate I am misogynist and she/he remains silent?
 
My understanding is that the Use of Girls as alter servers began outside of Rome, while the Pope was incapacitated.

Men have their calling to serve the church and woman have their calling. In the history of the church it was always this way. Some say it was Gods wish while others think it was part of the cultrual hierarchy.

It is part of the feminist movement. If the Job of the Alter boy is discern vocations. Than one must assume that the intention of the instalation of Alter Girls is to accomadate woman to the priest hood. AS it was done in the ePISScopal church and other protestANT churchs.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that as in the instance of teh installation of Homosexuals in the priesthood that this is disruptive to the church.
 
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