Mother Mary

[regression]

Then why doesn’t the Catholic church rebuke such behavior?? There has to be a reason.

What behavior? Someone committing adultery in a church or idolatry? If you have a specific details you want to share, we could start there.

 

[Proallen]

Proallen;6419750:

Try reading the thread. Let’s look shall we?

Your post #7, was answered by Trallius in post #8

Your post #9 was answered by BrianH in post #10, and by Vile servant in post #17,

Your post #11 somehow turned Brian’s response into having to believe every title of Mary. I responded to you in post #12, and further clarified in post #14.

Post 15, you decided to switch gears and go into refuting language in the Catechism without reproach. Whatever that meant. In fact, I asked you what you wanted to refute in post 16. I even included several links for you to check out.

This only covers the first 17 posts of this thread. Do I really need to go on with showing you where your statements have been refuted throughout the rest of the thread?

Also you have made an **unsubstantiated **statement about Idolatry, without any proof.

Are we supposed to believe everything you post just because **you **are the one who posted it?

Sorry, that is not how it works. You made a claim, you back it up. It is as simple as that.

Your continued refusal to provide any information other than what you think is idolatry simply reinforces the fact that you misinterpreted what you saw. Assuming it happened at all.

If the event happened, then you shouldn’t have any problems giving more of a description now should you? Why are you being so difficult in providing details on something you supposedly witnessed for years?

Nothing of the such has happened! Your refutations are from Scripture quotes that do not support the Catholic point of view by any stetch of the imagination and you refuse to deal with the blatant idolotry that goes on in your churches. You cannot prove anything you claim so your tactic is to turn it against those who question. What you are doing to me is no different. It’s laughable and shameful. If someone bowed to a statue in my church petitioning it, they would be thrown out no matter if the statue was of Mary or any saint. That tells the story of my church’s doctrine. Why won’t Rome deal with this in the same way? Your doctrine proclaims that only God is to be worshipped but yet they allow idolotry. They will excommunicate for speaking against Holy Father, but they do nothing when our Lord is disrespected by someone worshipping Mary. How shameful!!

 

[Proallen]

What behavior? Someone committing adultery in a church or idolatry? If you have a specific details you want to share, we could start there.

Go back and read the previous posts. You missed the whole thing.

 

[regression]

Go back and read the previous posts. You missed the whole thing.

If you are talking about people crawling around on their hands and knees with a rosary, can I ask you some questions?

Where did this happen? A church / home / etc? Who was involved? A priest / bishop / lay people? If you saw people were doing something inappropriate, did you tell anyone? If a priest condoned it, did you speak with him about your concerns? Did you speak to his bishop?

 

[Proallen]

If you are talking about people crawling around on their hands and knees with a rosary, can I ask you some questions?

Where did this happen? A church / home / etc? Who was involved? A priest / bishop / lay people? If you saw people were doing something inappropriate, did you tell anyone? If a priest condoned it, did you speak with him about your concerns? Did you speak to his bishop?

I witnessed folks at different intervals praying to statues of Mary both in the church and outside on the grounds petitioning her for special favors. Some of these folks would come into the church several times during the week and do this and not particularly during any special times like Holy Week. The parish priest was confronted about it many times to no avail. I assume that the bishop was also notified at some point. But most of the parishioners seemingly had no issue with this. I have also witnessed folks who crawled around the church especially during the beginning of mass.

 

[regression]

I witnessed folks at different intervals praying to statues of Mary both in the church and outside on the grounds petitioning her for special favors. Some of these folks would come into the church several times during the week and do this and not particularly during any special times like Holy Week. The parish priest was confronted about it many times to no avail. I assume that the bishop was also notified at some point. But most of the parishioners seemingly had no issue with this. I have also witnessed folks who crawled around the church especially during the beginning of mass.

Well, I don’t see anything wrong with asking Mary to pray for something. How do you know they were praying to the statue? Is it possible the people used the statue as a reminder of Mary, of her being with God? Is it possible the people were actually praying to the statue itself, of course. Is it possible that the people were asking Mary to pray for them, of course. The only way to know is to talk to the people doing this.

When people are crawling around on the floor, where were they crawling? Up and down the main isle of the church, on the alter, on the side isles, in the back of the church? Did other people just ignore them? Give them funny looks? Since it was the beginning of mass, the priest would have seen it, right? He never said anything about it? Sorry for all the questions, but that is something I have never seen or even heard of before.

 

[Proallen]

Well, I don’t see anything wrong with asking Mary to pray for something. How do you know they were praying to the statue? Is it possible the people used the statue as a reminder of Mary, of her being with God? Is it possible the people were actually praying to the statue itself, of course. Is it possible that the people were asking Mary to pray for them, of course. The only way to know is to talk to the people doing this.

When people are crawling around on the floor, where were they crawling? Up and down the main isle of the church, on the alter, on the side isles, in the back of the church? Did other people just ignore them? Give them funny looks? Since it was the beginning of mass, the priest would have seen it, right? He never said anything about it? Sorry for all the questions, but that is something I have never seen or even heard of before.

These folks were kissing the statue while praying to it. One woman was crying incessantly. Forgive me for being so straight forward here, but I don’t see the point of asking questions when it is obvious what was going on. If anyone did that sort of thing in my church, they would be asked to leave and would only be allowed to return once they realized the idolotry they were committing. Intercessory prayer is perfectly fine and encouraged. What these people were doing had nothing to do with intercessory prayer. It was an abomination to God.

 

[T_More]

So Proallen, I take it you would have a problem with the Old Testatments accounts of the dancing around the ark of the covenant? The copper serpent that God commanded the Jews to look upon to be saved? The cherabim on the ark? The bronze bulls in the temple? The cherabim in the temple? How about the present day Jews who pray before the wailing wall?

 

[regression]

These folks were kissing the statue while praying to it. One woman was crying incessantly. Forgive me for being so straight forward here, but I don’t see the point of asking questions when it is obvious what was going on. If anyone did that sort of thing in my church, they would be asked to leave and would only be allowed to return once they realized the idolotry they were committing. Intercessory prayer is perfectly fine and encouraged. What these people were doing had nothing to do with intercessory prayer. It was an abomination to God.

Some people get more emotional than others. Anything can be abused. If they were felt that the statue had some sort of power, then that was wrong.

What about the crawling around on the floor? Was it a cultural thing? Did this happen in the US? Do you know if it is still going on?

 

[Proallen]

So Proallen, I take it you would have a problem with the Old Testatments accounts of the dancing around the ark of the covenant? The copper serpent that God commanded the Jews to look upon to be saved? The cherabim on the ark? The bronze bulls in the temple? The cherabim in the temple? How about the present day Jews who pray before the wailing wall?

I take it that you don’t have a problem whatsoever with folks who pray out loud to Mary while kissing the statue of her. That’s obvious and it’s sad. Do you have a clue how objectionable that is to God?? He made one of the Ten Commandments to address it, but these folks don’t care and obviously neither do you.

 

[Proallen]

Some people get more emotional than others. Anything can be abused. If they were felt that the statue had some sort of power, then that was wrong.

What about the crawling around on the floor? Was it a cultural thing? Did this happen in the US? Do you know if it is still going on?

I don’t know. What I do know is that nothing like this happens in the church where I have attended for the past several years. It would not be tolerated.

 

[regression]

I don’t know. What I do know is that nothing like this happens in the church where I have attended for the past several years. It would not be tolerated.

Nothing like that happens in any church I have been in either. That is 32 years and counting.

 

[Proallen]

What about that bronze snake?? Didn’t God command that Moses make that snake so that those who were bitten by the poisonous snakes could look at it and not die?? The main thing is that it wasn’t idolotry because God commanded it. Exodus is a very good and interesting book in the OT. The Israelites complained and doubted incessantly even when God bestowed many belssings upon them.

 

[T_More]

I take it that you don’t have a problem whatsoever with folks who pray out loud to Mary while kissing the statue of her. That’s obvious and it’s sad. Do you have a clue how objectionable that is to God?? He made one of the Ten Commandments to address it, but these folks don’t care and obviously neither do you.

Proallen, please keep your presumptousness tendencies in check. It clouds your reason. I never said I didn’t have a problem with it, but you obviously can’t address my questions above. Why? God himself allowed images to be used. Was he wrong? God obviously didn’t have your problem when he commanded Moses to cast a copper serpent to be saved? Or the cherabim on the very chest that he carried His Word. Or the manner that the temple dedicated to Him was decorated. Was he contradicting Himself with His commandments?

 

[lax16]

I don’t know. What I do know is that nothing like this happens in the church where I have attended for the past several years. It would not be tolerated.

You don’t know if this church is in the United States? or the culture of the people?
Is this happening now?

I’m confused… you say you have seen it happen (in a Catholic Church I am supposing) but have been going to a different church for the past several years?

 

[T_More]

What about that bronze snake?? Didn’t God command that Moses make that snake so that those who were bitten by the poisonous snakes could look at it and not die?? The main thing is that it wasn’t idolotry because God commanded it. Exodus is a very good and interesting book in the OT. The Israelites complained and doubted incessantly even when God bestowed many belssings upon them.

Why would the snake be needed, Proallen? Wouldn’t be enough for them to just repent and be saved from the snakes? Why have it? Why would God have felt that it was necessary to have a graven image?

 

[lax16]

Nothing like that happens in any church I have been in either. That is 32 years and counting.

I have lived in three states, attending several churches in each one, and we spend our summers traveling around the U.S. and attend mass in different states.

I have never seen it. However, I can imagine something like this maybe happening in an area where perhaps people have come from another country and have different customs…?

 

[Proallen]

Proallen, please keep your presumptousness tendencies in check. It clouds your reason. I never said I didn’t have a problem with it, but you obviously can’t address my questions above. Why? God himself allowed images to be used. Was he wrong? God obviously didn’t have your problem when he commanded Moses to cast a copper serpent to be saved? Or the cherabim on the very chest that he carried His Word. Or the manner that the temple dedicated to Him was decorated. Was he contradicting Himself with His commandments?

You are distorting what he commanded us to do with what he commanded us NOT to do.

 

[Proallen]

Why would the snake be needed, Proallen? Wouldn’t be enough for them to just repent and be saved from the snakes? Why have it? Why would God have felt that it was necessary to have a graven image?

I would leave that to God. His wisdom far surpasses ours. I don’t pretend to have a bead on it.

 

[T_More]

I have lived in three states, attending several churches in each one, and we spend our summers traveling around the U.S. and attend mass in different states.

I have never seen it. However, I can imagine something like this maybe happening in an area where perhaps people have come from another country and have different customs…?

I have been to Catholic Churches in 3 countries. The U.S., France and Italy. I’ve never seen anything like what is being described by Proallen.