Moving to another pew when someone sits in front of us, a scandal?

[EasterJoy]

Many people seem to think it is ok for the OP to be uncharitable to the people they are trying to avoid. People annoy us. People are going to do things and say things we don’t approve of. It’s part of living in a community. Getting up and moving when x couple sits in front may not be scandalous but it is unkind. If someone did that to me every time I went to church I would be very hurt. Given I suffer from fairly severe social anxiety my response to such treatment would be to stop attending.

If moving is a once off then I would have no issue. Reading the OP it doesn’t sound like this is the case. It reads to me that moving is something they do at least somewhat regularly and always to the same couple. A better response would simply be to move to a different section of the Church.

Yes, this is not something one ought to be obvious about. Sometimes, there is not going to be any way to pull it off a move without essentially treating a brother or sister in Christ as if they were a leper. That is not OK. Having said that, it is OK to treat someone else’s immodesty as your problem and your problem alone to cope with when the alternative is to tell them honestly that their clothing choices leave nothing to the imagination. We don’t leave in a Church where our brothers and sisters in Christ take that kind of admonishment as a welcome correction from which they might profit. I don’t know if we ever did, mind you, but if we ever did, we certainly don’t now.

I realize that you have emotional difficulties that aren’t entirely in your control, but your contention that you might choose to quit going to Mass over something like this is an example. You’re saying that if someone else found your clothing immodest and did anything to let on to you that it bothered them, you might quit going to Mass. In other words, no one can give you any negative feedback about your conduct, or you might leave and never come back. That just made the spiritual work of mercy of admonishing a sinner into a spiritual fault. Think about that.

In this case, I would think that someone who decided to move on account of someone else’s distracting clothing would have to make it a point to be socially welcoming when Mass was over. If they were asked why they moved, they need to say, “Oh, just me. I hope that didn’t make you think we don’t like you!”

 

[jmjZelie]

I think if this is a consistent problem, then I would attack the problem in two ways. First, I would find another spot to sit next time at Mass, away from where this couple usually sits. Second, I would make a concerted effort to get to know this couple. People you know personally and are friends with are much less distracting when their clothing choices differ from our own. We cannot so easily objectify friends in our thoughts as we can strangers. So I would invite them over for a couple’s board game night. Get to know them personally. Laugh with them and learn about who they are. Not only will this help to smooth over differences in clothing choices while at Mass or other parish activities, but it also might influence them in a good way. But I would not breathe a word of my inward struggle with judgment regarding their Mass apparel.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Hi all,

I’m such a person that if people that are dressed immodestly for Mass sits in front of us where we can see them, I get up from the pew without thinking it twice and move somewhere else where it doesn’t distract me or hubby. I do not want to give the devil the pleasure of tempting me by watching the immodest or by not paying attention to Mass for being annoyed.

I could care less if it is seen rude by others in Mass. But is it scandalous of us to get up and move from pews just when these immodest married couple arrived?

It is not just the wife who wears short dresses and her undergarments are marked, and her child grabs her and pulls her dress up a few times , but the husband too wears very tight shirts and very tight khaki pants that accentuate his butt. It is not only annoying to have this couple in sight, but also repulsive.

Thoughts?

Here are a few thoughts I have on your situation for your consideration and prayerful reflection:

Perhaps this situation is not the devil tempting you. Perhaps this couple have been place in front of you so that you can reach out to them and show them Christs love.

Perhaps rather than moving you could attempt to befriend these people, get to know them, pray for them, learn where they are on their faith journey, and if you can assist them on theirs–who knows you might even find that they can assist you on yours. If your parish has a Bible study that you participate in–you could extend an invitation to them.

Often people who come here to complain about distractions at Mass do so because they feel these distractions keep them from worshiping God at Mass. A question I have is: can we truly worship God–when we place our own needs and desires over truly treating our fellow parishioners as family. I think some words from Pope Francis fairly recent exhortation would be good for all of us to meditate on even though they are not given in the context of the Mass:

“The kerygma has a clear social content: at the very heart of the Gospel is life in community and engagement with others.”

“God’s word teaches that our brothers and sisters are the prolongation of the incarnation for each of us: ‘as you did it to one of these, the least of my brethren, you did it to me’ (Mt 25:40). The way we treat others has a transcendent dimension…It corresponds to the mercy which God has shown us…What these passages make clear is the absolute priority of ‘going forth from ourselves towards our brothers and sisters’…and as the deepest sign for discerning spiritual growth to God’s completely free gift.”

“Loving others is a spiritual force drawing us to union with God; indeed one who does not love others ‘walks in darkness’ (1 Jn 2:11)…Whenever we encounter another person in love, we learn something new about God. Whenever our eyes are opened to acknowledge the other, we grow in the light of faith and knowledge of God.”

You know–sure I’d like people to dress better etc., but unless we love and welcome these people–they may never grow in their faith and change. When we are afraid to sit by them because of the way they are dressed–are we modeling Christs love to them? (Would Christ have been afraid to sit next to them or are they the kind of people Christ sought out and called?) If we are not modeling Christs love to them–if we are instead passing judgment regarding whether or not they are dressed appropriately, genuflected, blessed themselves with holy water, etc.–are we truly worshiping Christ? Are we evangelizing them by our loving actions and if we are not – are we truly worshiping Christ? I want all my interactions with everyone at Mass to draw them closer to Christ–not push them away. They felt drawn or called enough to come to Mass–when many do not–I assume the call came from Christ–my job is to make sure they are welcome so that they have the opportunity to grow in their faith–if I can’t do that–then maybe I am not truly worshiping Christ because I have failed to see him in those he has called to Mass. If I have failed to see Christ in those he has called to His Mass–am I truly in a state to receive his real presence? If I don’t see Christ in those he has called to His Mass have I really been transformed by the Gospel and by Christ? If I ignore and fail to respect those Christ has called to His Mass–am I ignoring and failing to respect Christ? Mass is our community worship–where we are supposed to raise one voice to Christ–it is not the private worship of a bunch of individual islands. Can we truly raise one voice to Christ if we harbor resentment toward or view our fellow parishioners as distractions, if we fail to see Christ in them? I say this as an introvert and one who hasn’t traditionally cared for people much but who has read the Gospels and realized that’s not really an option if I want to follow Christ–I have been called to change and to love.

Whatever decision you come to regarding where you sit and this family–I hope you make it after praying to discern Gods will for you and your family in this matter.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[LongingSoul]

Many people seem to think it is ok for the OP to be uncharitable to the people they are trying to avoid. People annoy us. People are going to do things and say things we don’t approve of. It’s part of living in a community. Getting up and moving when x couple sits in front may not be scandalous but it is unkind. If someone did that to me every time I went to church I would be very hurt. Given I suffer from fairly severe social anxiety my response to such treatment would be to stop attending.

If moving is a once off then I would have no issue. Reading the OP it doesn’t sound like this is the case. It reads to me that moving is something they do at least somewhat regularly and always to the same couple. A better response would simply be to move to a different section of the Church.

Yes, I think that is a realistic reflection of how things are likely to transpire in a hurtful way. Preplanning your seating really isn’t that hard because unless you arrive really early before the Church fills up, there’s usually people there already and you can just go and sit behind an appropriate family first up or just sit right up the front.

My impression was that the OPs husband was worried about it being scandal due more to the shift seeming like an obvious demonstration of uncharitable judgement about the offenders, thereby causing other parishioners attitudes to be ignited by it. To that, I’d say do the move in as discreet and kind way as possible for that one time and then pre plan your subsequent seat choices each Mass.

 

[Peebo]

Well having come from a Pentecostal background many years ago I have to say that females wore modest clothing and men were neatly attired…it is disconcerting to see the way some Catholics dress at mass…especially when you consider Pentecostals don’t believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ at communion… in the Catholic Church Christ is truly present in the Eucharist and yet some Catholics dress like some “only in Walmart” shoppers…

 

[SilverLight]

Yes, this is not something one ought to be obvious about. Sometimes, there is not going to be any way to pull it off a move without essentially treating a brother or sister in Christ as if they were a leper. That is not OK. Having said that, it is OK to treat someone else’s immodesty as your problem and your problem alone to cope with when the alternative is to tell them honestly that their clothing choices leave nothing to the imagination. We don’t leave in a Church where our brothers and sisters in Christ take that kind of admonishment as a welcome correction from which they might profit. I don’t know if we ever did, mind you, but if we ever did, we certainly don’t now.

I realize that you have emotional difficulties that aren’t entirely in your control, but your contention that you might choose to quit going to Mass over something like this is an example. You’re saying that if someone else found your clothing immodest and did anything to let on to you that it bothered them, you might quit going to Mass. In other words, no one can give you any negative feedback about your conduct, or you might leave and never come back. That just made the spiritual work of mercy of admonishing a sinner into a spiritual fault. Think about that.

In this case, I would think that someone who decided to move on account of someone else’s distracting clothing would have to make it a point to be socially welcoming when Mass was over. If they were asked why they moved, they need to say, “Oh, just me. I hope that didn’t make you think we don’t like you!”

I’m sorry but I have to ask this. Do you know what it’s like to have anxiety like that or any kind of anxiety? It really can be hard to live with sometimes and going out and being with others even more sometimes.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Amen, sister!

I am always amazed that people who love Christ and the mass so much cannot handle some of the most common distractions in life. Christ carried the cross while being screamed at, cursed, spit upon and we can’t get through 45 minutes without our delicate sensibilities being offended by common annoyances of life.

We CAN put up with it, but why should we have to put up with babies who scream at the top of their lungs for one hour straight when we have FOUR LARGE rooms that were built, at the laity’s expense, to keep screaming babies from disrupting Mass for those who want to commune with Christ? It would be different if we did not have those rooms.

I’m allergic to most perfumes, so can’t stand to sit near someone who is heavily perfumed. Male or female.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

How so? At what point did I say that you were not welcome? I have no problem with people at Mass who cause some distraction or who are disturbed by distractions. I merely pointed out that you speak about the horrors of the all-about-me people in Mass but how is telling Pensmama that she should leave her child at home because the child would distract you not making it about you? It just seems like a double standard to me.

And I have no problem with people who want to leave their children at home or use the nursery or use the cry room doing so. My problem is pushing it on people who don’t want to.

It’s all about CHRIST. A child who is talking, screaming, licking pews, moving around, kicking the back of the pew, asking questions, etc. is making it all about THEM. That’s why most churches have special rooms for children who can’t behave and be quiet. Those special rooms should be USED.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Not home, but have you considered utilizing a special room separated from the rest of the people?

No, you wouldn’t like that I’m betting. So, who should be separated in the situations you describe. Who should be told they are not welcome?

I agree. The badly behaved children are very welcome at Mass, but out of consideration for the congregation should sit in one of the soundproof rooms that were built especially for screaming babies and out-of-control children. In my parish, some of the parishioners are elderly, and Sunday Mass is the only time they get out of the house. They should be able to enjoy their time with Christ.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I like to sit near the front because I’m getting a bit deaf in my old age. But I’m several inches taller than just about everyone else in the church, so it quite often happens that when I sit down, the people behind me move somewhere else. Am I scandalized, do you ask? Am I offended? Well, no, as a matter of fact, not in the least.

I agree.

I’m still young, but I had shingles in my ear canal, which caused nerve damage, and our pastor mumbles, so even despite the microphone, I have to sit in the first pew (which no one but me seems to like) to hear him as he speaks just to the side of my “shingles ear.” Usually no one will sit beside me unless the church is full elsewhere. Am I offended? Not in the least! I actually like having the front center pew all to myself, though I would, of course, welcome others.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Maybe you should sit in one.

I’ve tried it since the peace and quiet were very welcome. However, I was told to sit in the sanctuary proper as the “baby rooms” were ONLY for crying babies and out-of-control children.

In my parish, the parents usually do a pretty good job of taking their crying babies to these rooms.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The “cry rooms” are supposed to be there for the benefit of families that want to use them. They are not intended to be ghettos for families with young children. (*Four *soundproof rooms? That sounds more like solitary confinement, LOL.)

Keep in mind that the words of consecration used to be done too quietly to be heard. You do not have to hear them all in order to participate in the Mass. It is a good thing, but it is not strictly necessary. Maintaining a charitable attitude towards the rest of the baptized is necessary, too, after all. Tough sometimes, but none of us are easy to live with all of the time.

Our four soundproof, air conditioned, carpeted rooms are hardly ghettos. Our bishop has said they are for the benefit of those who come to Mass to commune with God without distractions.

I don’t mind if a baby let’s out a cry now and then, but to scream for one hour solid is just a reflection of the parents’ uncharitableness toward the other parishioners. I think those who have babies are going to not favor the soundproof rooms, those who do not, will favor them.

 

[EasterJoy]

Our four soundproof, air conditioned, carpeted rooms are hardly ghettos. Our bishop has said they are for the benefit of those who come to Mass to commune with God without distractions.

I don’t mind if a baby let’s out a cry now and then, but to scream for one hour solid is just a reflection of the parents’ uncharitableness toward the other parishioners. I think those who have babies are going to not favor the soundproof rooms, those who do not, will favor them.

Parishioners of any age who need to scream ought to be lead out of the sanctuary immediately, and carried out if necessary. You will not find me arguing with that.

I only argue with the premise (which I’m not saying you are forwarding) that families with small children ought to always go straight to the isolation rooms–that a child’s experience of Mass until age two or five or whatever ought to always be from there. When that is how it is expected that those rooms will be used, then they absolutely are a ghetto, and I don’t care if the atmosphere and the furniture is nicer than it is out with the assembly. All of the baptized ought to be free to join the assembly of the faithful without prejudice with regards to age or disability. That includes families with children of any age.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Parishioners of any age who need to scream ought to be lead out of the sanctuary immediately, and carried out if necessary. You will not find me arguing with that.

I only argue with the premise (which I’m not saying you are forwarding) that families with small children ought to always go straight to the isolation rooms–that a child’s experience of Mass until age two or five or whatever ought to always be from there. When that is how it is expected that those rooms will be used, then they absolutely are a ghetto, and I don’t care if the atmosphere and the furniture is nicer than it is out with the assembly. All of the baptized ought to be free to join the assembly of the faithful without prejudice with regards to age or disability. That includes families with children of any age.

I have no problem with babies who only cry now and then.

I do believe you about your rooms, of course, but ours are never a ghetto. They are carpeted, air conditioned, have wonderful speakers, and allow children to play if they want to. They are always clean, roomy, and the seats are extremely comfortable. I know that because I’ve taken refuge there when a mother refuses to take her crying child out of the sanctuary and calm him or her down.

We have families with small children who are pretty well behaved and a joy to have at Mass. Some of the little boys are even in little suits and look so cute. They even want to share the sign of peace. They are lovely to have in the sanctuary.

Now, at the Mother Church where our bishop celebrates Mass, he brooks no interruptions and will stop Mass until all is quiet again. We aren’t even allowed to open the doors to the main road, but have to use the side ones so as to not “let in” street noise! He’s a kind bishop and very approachable, but he is very strict about Mass in the cathedral.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have no problem with babies who only cry now and then.

I do believe you about your rooms, of course, but ours are never a ghetto. They are carpeted, air conditioned, have wonderful speakers, and allow children to play if they want to. They are always clean, roomy, and the seats are extremely comfortable. I know that because I’ve taken refuge there when a mother refuses to take her crying child out of the sanctuary and calm him or her down.

We have families with small children who are pretty well behaved and a joy to have at Mass. Some of the little boys are even in little suits and look so cute. They even want to share the sign of peace. They are lovely to have in the sanctuary.

No, I just mean if there is somewhere out of the way in the church where some people are expected to go whether it suits them or not, that is a ghetto. It is terrible when cry rooms are dumps, but that is a different issue than what I mean. I mean it doesn’t matter how nice they are, if people who aren’t inclined to use them are expected to use them, anyway, without regard to some demonstrated inability to act appropriately in the main sanctuary. It matters that something other than the personal inclination of the parents or *today’s *inability to act appropriately in the main sanctuary drives who goes there.

Since you have families with small children who are doing fine in your main sanctuary, however, a ghetto for small children is obviously **not **what you are talking about. You are talking about expecting people who cannot control themselves to retire to somewhere that they can see Mass without disrupting anyone else. That is appropriate. Certainly, there are parents who know their children well enough to know that they ought to make a beeline for the isolation rooms as soon as they enter the church. That’s OK, too, so long as it is their call.

The original question, though, is whether it is OK to move *yourself *away from someone else who is being inappropriate in a way that directly impacts you when you have the ability to do it. I think the answer is yes, with the caveat that you have to consider how they might take your action when you do it. We need to avoid giving the impression that we are issuing a personal rejection of them.

 

[MarkInOregon]

It’s all about CHRIST. A child who is talking, screaming, licking pews, moving around, kicking the back of the pew, asking questions, etc. is making it all about THEM. That’s why most churches have special rooms for children who can’t behave and be quiet. Those special rooms should be USED.

You’re right it should be all about Christ. Where do we find Christ? Do we only find Christ in the Eucharist or do we also find him in the noisy baby? (“as you did it to one of these, the least of my brethren, you did it to me”(Mt 25:40) – are we sending Christ to the cry room or telling him to stay home from Mass?) And I am sorry but when you tell them to go to the cry room–you’re not making the Mass about Christ you’re making it about how you want your Mass experience to be–you’re making it about you. I have a hard time believing that Christ is upset by a babies crying–and is thinking about how disrespectful that baby is being to him. (“And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, 'Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it. Then he embraced them and blessed them, placing his hands on them.” (Mk 10:13-16))

This should not be taken to mean that I am in favor of extremely disruptive children at Mass–because I don’t understand why parents don’t leave the sanctuary when their children are extremely disruptive but it’s not because I think they’re making the Mass all about them or offending Jesus–it’s because I would think they would want to do something for their fellow parishioners–in whom they should be seeing Jesus (it is after all a two way street).

When we come here and complain about the way parishioners are dressed, that they don’t genuflect, don’t bless themselves with holy water, don’t seem reverent enough, that we sang such and such a song, that so and so’s baby was so loud, or whatever it is–that’s “ruining” our Mass experience–and then claim that these people are making the Mass all about themselves–we should just look at ourselves in the mirror and laugh because we’re the ones that are not making the Mass about Jesus but rather about how we think the Mass should be i.e. about us. We’re the ones failing to focus on Christ and blaming it on others. If I would let them–a lot of things at Mass would irritate me (currently they’ve stopped announcing the hymn at Mass and the music just starts–I know it’s petty but it drives me crazy–so you can see that I can get irritated at the most trivial of things). Now I have a choice I can 1.) be irritated and focus on everything that bothers me and let Mass be ruined or 2.) I can ignore it, pray the prayers, read the readings, receive Christ in the Eucharist and try to see Christ in everyone at Mass–if I do this I am focused on Christ and Mass is enjoyable no matter what goes on around me. To be quite truthful my eyes are closed through all the prayers at Mass, I follow the readings, sing the songs, and take notes during the homily–that leaves very little time for looking around worrying about what everyone else at Mass is doing. I guess I believe I am responsible for my focus at Mass and if I let others bother me --that’s on me. Since I have started down this path I find that my experience at Mass is almost always good no matter where I go. Of course on CAF I know that I am in the minority with this view.

The Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[jmcrae]

More than one person is using the word “sanctuary” to refer to, I presume, the Church - in addition to our modesty and the discipline of our children, have we also lost the meaning of the word “sanctuary”?

 

[Elizium23]

More than one person is using the word “sanctuary” to refer to, I presume, the Church - in addition to our modesty and the discipline of our children, have we also lost the meaning of the word “sanctuary”?

Yeah… we’re Catholic. That means the Sanctuary is where the Apse and Altar are, and non-ministers do not enter the area. The faithful sit in the Nave. The area just inside the doors where you can talk freely and remove your coats and hats is called the Narthex.

 

[EasterJoy]

More than one person is using the word “sanctuary” to refer to, I presume, the Church - in addition to our modesty and the discipline of our children, have we also lost the meaning of the word “sanctuary”?

Excuse me–I wrote sanctuary over and over. I meant the nave…the main part of the church where the parishioners sit. The altar is in the sanctuary…Let’s not have the little children milling around up there!

My bad!!

 

[GreyWings]

E_7 I understand how you feel. I dress modestly at Latin Mass (maxi dresses, cardigan, and the chapel veil). Recently there was a girl, not much younger than me, wearing a pretty revealing dress that showed way too much: legs, her back, bare shoulders. It was a great dress for a dinner date for cocktails. For mass, not so much. If she had a cardigan it wouldn’t have been so bad, but the dress as it was, was way inappropriate. She also played with her hair a lot during mass and it was distracting as I was focusing on the Latin and on the prayers.

But - anyway in that moment, I told myself, that as much as I would “like” to tell her that her dress is immodest for mass, that I would let my feelings go and nonetheless be open to her with a heart of love. She may not be self-aware or aware that she was not dressed properly for mass. Who knows what she was thinking. It very likely was an innocent mistake and her mama wasn’t around to tell her to cover up. Anyhow, it ended up being an experience for me, personally, to show grace and not judge. The best way to fight the devil is to express love and grace.

Children, immodesty, maybe even a person who stinks? Do I think moving to another pew is the right course of action? I understand the thought, but I personally think to love is more important, as “love one another” is the last commandment of Jesus.

So, no, I would not move, but embrace the person with love, and extend grace to them for they probably don’t mean any harm, and they probably don’t know better.