Moving to another pew when someone sits in front of us, a scandal?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you for your kind words. Tone can be so hard to communicate (at least for me) in the written word and it is easy to read the wrong tone into others posts–so I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt–thank you for doing that for me.

I understand what you are saying but Christ said, “As you did it to one of these, the least of my brethren, you did it to me” (Mt 25:40). To me this says that I do indeed meet the the living Christ in others also–I just have to see it (and this is something I struggle with and constantly work on). I don’t think I am excused from finding Christ in others just because I am at Mass and He is there in a special way in the Eucharist. In the Eucharist we receive Christ and are nourished by him and the community is made one with him – "The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist is an intimate union with Christ Jesus (CCC1391). At times I get the impression that many people view the Mass as their time of private worship and adoration of Christ–but in my mind that is called Eucharistic Adoration. I see the Mass as our community worship–where we are strengthened and more fully united to Christ–and I don’t think we can do that if we are divided and harboring ill thoughts about those around us–I think it undermines what the Eucharist should be achieving. "The unity of the Mystical Body: the Eucharist makes the Church. Those who receive the Eucharist are united more closely to Christ. Through it Christ unites them to all the faithful in one body–the Church. Communion renews, strengthens, and deepens this incorporation into his Church, already achieved in Baptism. In Baptism we have been called to form but one body. The Eucharist fulfills this call…(CCC 1396).
I think many here judge those who don’t show up dressed in a manner they deem appropriate–unworthy and disrespectful–I do not because I cannot see into their hearts–for all I know they may not think they are dressing immodestly or inappropriately and their heart may be closer to God than the hearts of many who cast disapproving glances at their fellow brothers in Christ. I know that I am in the minority here but I question whether I can truly worship Christ and receive him worthily in the Eucharist if my actions and attitudes toward others at Mass are anything but welcoming and inviting–if I do not show Christs love to them and hopefully draw them closer to Christ–if I instead pass judgment on how they are dressed or the things they do or do not do at Mass. I do not know where they are on their faith journey and it is my belief I will be judged more harshly if I do something to derail their journey toward Christ than they will be for coming to Mass dressed in a manner that most here deem scandalous. Their dress can change if their faith can be nurtured and allowed to grow but it can’t if they are driven from the Church. As I read the Gospels Christ did seem more concerned with where ones heart was as opposed to external appearances of piety–one would hope they would be in sync but this is not always the case.

I guess I have been lucky in that I can’t remember a time at our parish when we have had a baby cry for or a child be disruptive for the whole hour and the Mass my family attends has quite a few young families with young children–which I am delighted to see. We have had Sundays where the babies do seem to feed off of each other but it hasn’t been overly distracting and I always offer up a quick prayer for the parents and the child, and the parents are pretty good about going to the vestibule if the child gets too loud for too long.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

You know, I think what you wrote really was powerful and you made your point well. However, Sometimes I think we as Catholics can take things to a ridiculous extreme. There is a misunderstanding in some circles about Catholic Charity. You know I think some even on these forums would see a guy in a ski mask and a gun asking for their wallet as some sort of person who was cold and wanted to give them money and found a gun that they wish to turn into the police. Sometimes things are just bad, or wrong, or evil or etc. And Charity must be balanced with logic and knowledge and wisdom and prudence.

I think it is absolutely ok with moving if you feel distracted by a certain person’s dress. I also note that the Vatican has a Dress Code and yet no one bats an eye at that!? If some woman sat in front of me bouncing cleavage around and if I happen to notice that the bra and panties they are wearing match… well then perhaps I need to move to focus more on the Mass.
Whatever happened to encouraging people to keep custody of their eyes? That used to be a virtuous quality.

Now, we dare not move and the fault is with us that we are being visually raped in our society today. Extreme hyperbole? Perhaps. But think about it…

 

[Lily_Bernans]

And to you as well, Lily, I have enjoyed your (name removed by moderator)ut in the comments and your insight regarding this interesting discussion. Pax tecum to you and to all.

Thank you, GreyWings. I hope you have a wonderful day.

 

[jmjZelie]

Dis anyone go to the vigil Mass last night for this Sunday, and catch the New Testament reading about attire at Mass and preferential seating? I immediately thought of this thread when I heard it.

 

[EasterJoy]

Hi Mark,

Yes, I think you’re right, and I, too, think you expressed it beautifully. It is easy to see that you look for Christ in everyone and are a loving and caring person.

I don’t really care what others wear to Mass, but I will admit I wish they’d wear shoes and not flip flops, but that’s not going to make me not care about the person. I am assuming Jesus, himself, wore sandals.

I am not used to small children, so I think I am overly sensitive to them. I grew up in a cloister with nuns, so I am used to quiet. We have some younger children at our church, though, who are genuinely delightful and a lot of fun. They take great joy in the sign of peace and it’s wonderful to see their faith. Some even pray on the altar steps with their parents after Mass.

I think you are right. Mass is worship in community. Eucharistic Adoration is more of a private meeting with Jesus.

Thank you for your post and your words of wisdom, and a Blessed Sunday to you - and to all.

I have been thinking about this a lot, and the rough rule I’d suggest is this:

If you cannot move discretely, without it seeming that you are making some point of distancing yourself from someone else for whom Christ also thirsts, whether they are baptized or not, then stick it out where you are. If you fall into a sin because you did not move, surely you will be shown mercy because you stayed where you were for a good beyond your own. You can take greater care in the future, since you know your own weakness better.

If someone is distracting you because you are being tempted to break the 9th or 10th Commandment or because you want to make yourself the center of their attention or something of that nature, then if you can do so discretely it is certainly OK to move in order to remove yourself from a near occasion of sin.

If, on the other hand, someone is distracting you because being around them does not suit you, then you ought to make your choice based on weakness.* If you are weaker than they, and simply cannot pray for concerning yourself with their affairs, then give yourself permission to move if you can do so discretely. If, on the other hand, you are not so weak that you cannot force yourself to see this as someone with whose company will be yours to enjoy with God for all of eternity, with no guarantees that they will be changed to suit you instead of the other way around, then stay where you are and open yourself to being outfitted for heaven.

If someone else moves for what would seem to you to be a bad reason, make the charitable assumption that they do so for reasons that are praiseworthy or at least neutral, and mind your own business. If they ask you, try to encourage them to do the thing which is the most encompassing of their weakness and that of their neighbor’s, but in the end leave the decision to them and keep your mouth shut about it to anyone else, since being consulted on something like this put you in a position of trust with both the person asking and the person they are asking you about. If the person asking did not care about anyone but himself or herself, after all, then he or she would not have bothered to ask you in the first place.

(This is what I mean by choosing based on weakness*
*Now in regard to meat sacrificed to idols: we realize that “all of us have knowledge”; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.

So about the eating of meat sacrificed to idols: we know that “there is no idol in the world,” and that “there is no God but one.” Indeed, even though there are so-called gods in heaven and on earth (there are, to be sure, many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist. But not all have this knowledge. There are some who have been so used to idolatry up until now that, when they eat meat sacrificed to idols, their conscience, which is weak, is defiled. Now food will not bring us closer to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, nor are we better off if we do. But make sure that this liberty of yours in no way becomes a stumbling block to the weak. If someone sees you, with your knowledge, reclining at table in the temple of an idol, may not his conscience too, weak as it is, be “built up” to eat the meat sacrificed to idols? Thus through your knowledge, the weak person is brought to destruction, the brother for whom Christ died. When you sin in this way against your brothers and wound their consciences, weak as they are, you are sinning against Christ. Therefore, if food causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I may not cause my brother to sin. 1 Cor. 8: 1-13*

Therefore, likewise, it is praiseworthy to act based on those who may suffer weakness, not only in how we act but in how we dress, lest we be the reason that any fall.

 

[EasterJoy]

Dis anyone go to the vigil Mass last night for this Sunday, and catch the New Testament reading about attire at Mass and preferential seating? I immediately thought of this thread when I heard it.

Yes, I did notice that. That was a case where St James saw someone was given preferential treatment for self-interested reasons, this is true. The rich person was fawned over because they are influential, whereas the one dressed like a poor person was ignored because they were thought to be nothing in the world. This is a bit different than dressing according to a worldly standard that encourages licentiousness or covetousness of someone else’s body–that is, where the goal of selecting clothing is to seem “sexy.” I suppose, however, that it does make the point that you ought to consider the person who might be needier than you are than concerning yourself with what you might get out of someone else based on where you sit.

 

[grotto]

Many encounters with older adults, men and women, who are perfectly fine with engaging in lenghty,casual, mundane conversation with each other. The architecturally designed church that was built in 1984 (not really needed to replace the existing church which then became the KofC Hall) - anyway. The Blessed Sacrament was separated from the large area used for the Mass. So, people just passed by the small “chapel” with the Tabernacle and enjoyed socializing in the large area. There were no pews and kneelers, no prominent place for a statue of the Blessed Mother, St. Joseph, - no encouragement or incentive to spend time in prayer. There was no Crucifix behind the plain altar nor a Crucifix carried in for Mass. What was carried in looked like a plus sign made out of red glass. Years of “never mind about anything” are now slowly showing the results.

A new and good priest has finally been Heaven sent and practicing the Catholic Faith looks like it will make a come back. However, I have to share my pain - I was so happy to be able to stop in the chapel to have a moment with our Lord before the Mass started - I felt a special need to do this. Its a small chapel. As I entered, genuflected and stood for my visit, two older women were on the chairs against the wall talking away. Of course they were aware of my entering to pray. Did they stop their normal voiced conversation, become whisper quiet? NO! I had a full minute of trying to ignore them and pray - thought about it - should I? No - don’t do it. Another minute - slowly I turned., and looked at them with a steady eye, they paused and looked like - “what”? I said …
“Good morning, I just stopped in to say Hello to Our Lord”. Then genuflected and left.

I am pretty sure they knew what was what - but if it enters their heads about not being attentive, reverent, or plain rude - who knows.

I think a little more renewed teaching is needed about basic dress, where and why we need to be respectful and reverent in Our Lords House. Our Lord wants us to pray and talk with Him everywhere but especially when we enter a Catholic Church, a place where the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass is celebrated, Confessions are heard, Sacraments are received, where we learn and feed our souls.

There has been, since the time of Vatican II, a definite change of much lost. No debate to start on this thread but hope this post makes sense.

 

[BartholomewB]

I don’t really care what others wear to Mass, but I will admit I wish they’d wear shoes and not flip flops, but that’s not going to make me not care about the person. I am assuming Jesus, himself, wore sandals.

Lily
Just as a matter of interest, would you find flipflops at Mass equally inappropriate for men and women, or more in one case than the other? And would that apply equally in the United States and in France, or more in one country than the other?

Here in Brazil, I’ve occasionally noticed women wearing flipflops at Mass, but not men, as far as I remember. I’ve never really thought about it until I read your post just now, but I suspect that the social taboo on flipflops, in certain more formal contexts, applies more to men than to women. I wear flipflops all the time when I’m at home, but I always change into sneakers to go to mass.

Regards
Bart

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Dis anyone go to the vigil Mass last night for this Sunday, and catch the New Testament reading about attire at Mass and preferential seating? I immediately thought of this thread when I heard it.

The Gopsel at this morning’s Mass was St. James and it had to do with what people wore versus were they welcome, show no partiality, etc. Is that the same one?

When I saw it in my Missal, I immediately thought of this thread.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The Gopsel at this morning’s Mass was St. James and it had to do with what people wore versus were they welcome, show no partiality, etc. Is that the same one?

When I saw it in my Missal, I immediately thought of this thread.

There is no gospel reading from James

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

There is no gospel reading from James

I was mistaken. It was the NT reading from St. James today. James 2:1-5.

 

[retire_early]

I cannot imagine under what circumstances a lone child could be raised in an isolated cloister by the nuns … but that would most likely account for your strong intolerance of normal family Masses.
My friend’s mother was raised in a convent, in Australia, in the '20’s, because her two older sisters brought her with them when they joined the order. Because you cannot imagine a scenario does not make it unreal.

I do not believe Lily has a strong intolerance of normal Masses. Seems to be uncalled for exaggeration on your part. Her posts, for the most part, have just advocated for noisy children who can’t be controlled to be taken to the “crying room”.

By the way, what is a “family Mass?”. Is that some kind of Mass that only allows families? A Mass is a Mass. Please don’t tell me that you believe we have different decorum for Mass depending on the familial relationships of the attendees!!

Perhaps you could start approaching it from the angle that you have an issue to address rather than indicting the mothers and children who are dealing with normal mother/children issues?
No, it is for the parents to address their children who are out of control. Don’t falsely blame Lily who is merely pointing out that some parents seem oblivious to making an effort–not with normal issues, but out-of-control issues.

From experience, it is incredibly hard being the mother to small children and most of us try hard beyond measure, to turn out perfect, disciplined children. But it is an incredibly hard job.
Not just you, but everyone in the world has “hard jobs” to bear. Raising children is certainly one of them–not the only one, but one of them. If you want to be balanced, its best to not strive for perfection or imagine that others hold you to that goal, either. Doing your best is what is called for.

 

[retire_early]

How so? At what point did I say that you were not welcome? I have no problem with people at Mass who cause some distraction or who are disturbed by distractions. I merely pointed out that you speak about the horrors of the all-about-me people in Mass but how is telling Pensmama that she should leave her child at home because the child would distract you not making it about you? It just seems like a double standard to me.

And I have no problem with people who want to leave their children at home or use the nursery or use the cry room doing so. My problem is pushing it on people who don’t want to.

Here is what I said to Pensmama:
*Not every family with children sitting in front area gets disgusted looks, only those (I imagine) that do not make a concerted effort to control their children. Please re-think how you might be better able to learn from feedback. People don’t go to church to hate one another, obviously. If you continually irritate others, please don’t try to adjust yourself to it by ignoring them. There is nothing wrong with leaving children at home who are too unruly for Mass. *
I said this in reply to her statement that she had started ignoring those that were giving her signals about her admittedly misbehaving children. My point was that there are options: not requiring children to attend Mass who are too unruly is one, using the cry room, walking outside or in the back for a bit, etc., are others.

Here is what I said in general to the topic in another post:
*…Never have heard any priest say from the altar, “turn off your TV’s, cellphones, I-pods, put away the cheerios, crackers, cookies, take the gum out of your mouths, stop whispering and chatting with each other and we’ll begin Mass”, but it might almost be necessary in this day and age of Its-All-About-Me.

*You seem to have mistakenly conflated my two posts and made up something that I didn’t say. I am sorry you are confused. I didn’t use the word “horror” to describe anything, I don’t attend Mass with Pensmama or her child and I do not have double standards, so please don’t attribute things to me that are not true. I feel your post is just trying to denigrate me without making a valid point.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Lily
Just as a matter of interest, would you find flipflops at Mass equally inappropriate for men and women, or more in one case than the other? And would that apply equally in the United States and in France, or more in one country than the other?

Here in Brazil, I’ve occasionally noticed women wearing flipflops at Mass, but not men, as far as I remember. I’ve never really thought about it until I read your post just now, but I suspect that the social taboo on flipflops, in certain more formal contexts, applies more to men than to women. I wear flipflops all the time when I’m at home, but I always change into sneakers to go to mass.

Regards
Bart

Hi Bart,

From a hygiene standpoint, women in the US seem to remove their flip flops more then men do (I’ve never seen a man do it in public except at the beach and that’s understandable), so I would have more objection to women wearing them at mass and in restaurants than men.

I don’t have a vendetta against flip flops, I just think they are inappropriate for church and restaurants. They are fine for at home, at the beach, at a fair, casual places.

In France, at least at the churches I’ve belonged to, people were WAY more formal, and wouldn’t dream of wearing flip flops to mass or to a restaurant. Here in the US, I tend to be one of the most formally dressed at mass because I’m wearing the clothes I wore in France, at least most of the time.

Lily

 

[jlc2k2]

Here is what I said to Pensmama:
*Not every family with children sitting in front area gets disgusted looks, only those (I imagine) that do not make a concerted effort to control their children. Please re-think how you might be better able to learn from feedback. People don’t go to church to hate one another, obviously. If you continually irritate others, please don’t try to adjust yourself to it by ignoring them. There is nothing wrong with leaving children at home who are too unruly for Mass. *
I said this in reply to her statement that she had started ignoring those that were giving her signals about her admittedly misbehaving children. My point was that there are options: not requiring children to attend Mass who are too unruly is one, using the cry room, walking outside or in the back for a bit, etc., are others.

Here is what I said in general to the topic in another post:
*…Never have heard any priest say from the altar, “turn off your TV’s, cellphones, I-pods, put away the cheerios, crackers, cookies, take the gum out of your mouths, stop whispering and chatting with each other and we’ll begin Mass”, but it might almost be necessary in this day and age of Its-All-About-Me.

*You seem to have mistakenly conflated my two posts and made up something that I didn’t say. I am sorry you are confused. I didn’t use the word “horror” to describe anything, I don’t attend Mass with Pensmama or her child and I do not have double standards, so please don’t attribute things to me that are not true. I feel your post is just trying to denigrate me without making a valid point.

I apologize for my tone before. It was rude of me to use it. I’m often responding in a quick fashion and do not think through what I write as thoroughly as I should. That said, I did not conflate your two posts - I do realize that they were separate but the ideas reflected in them (as I read them - likely not as you intended them) seemed to be at odds.

Perhaps it’s because I’ve read many posts by Pensmama stating **how **she helps keep her children under control in Mass but I have a hard time believing that her children are repeatedly causing major distractions - particularly to the point of needing to leave them at home every weekend. Your statement to her came off as sounding like you thought that she should be doing that though. I almost certainly read too much into the statement and for that I sincerely apologize.

The point I wanted to make (and failed miserably at) was made very eloquently by Mark at a later time.

And again, I would have no problem attending Mass with you or anyone else for pretty much any reason. I’m normally too distracted by ensuring that my own brood is not causing disturbances for others to notice anything else.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I do not believe Lily has a strong intolerance of normal Masses…Her posts, for the most part, have just advocated for noisy children who can’t be controlled to be taken to the “crying room”.

By the way, what is a “family Mass?”. Is that some kind of Mass that only allows families? A Mass is a Mass. Please don’t tell me that you believe we have different decorum for Mass depending on the familial relationships of the attendees!!..

No, it is for the parents to address their children who are out of control…

…Not just you, but everyone in the world has “hard jobs” to bear. Raising children is certainly one of them–not the only one, but one of them. If you want to be balanced, its best to not strive for perfection or imagine that others hold you to that goal, either. Doing your best is what is called for.

…I said this in reply to her statement that she had started ignoring those that were giving her signals about her admittedly misbehaving children. My point was that there are options: not requiring children to attend Mass who are too unruly is one, using the cry room, walking outside or in the back for a bit, etc., are others.

I’d like to address this: By the way, what is a “family Mass?”. Is that some kind of Mass that only allows families? A Mass is a Mass. Please don’t tell me that you believe we have different decorum for Mass depending on the familial relationships of the attendees!!

The Church actually does recognize that there are pastoral reasons to adjust a liturgy with the ages of the faithful present kept in mind, to the point of having a liturgy specifically to be used when the majority of the faithful present are children.

Adjusting our expectations to take the ages, developmental stages, and so on of the faithful around us into account is one of the works of charity. When in doubt, go back to Rule 1: *Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing…When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. …So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love*.
1 Cor. 13:1-8, 11, 13

Of course children ought to be taught to focus and concern themselves with the experience of others at Mass, but let us remember they learn this first by example.

The looks a parent with a screaming child ought to get, if anything, are empathy with the child, empathy with the parent, and a willingness to be of service if the parent needs it. Yes, the child needs to be taken out and not disrupt everything, but let this be with as much concern for the child as for anyone else in the church.

Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but everyone for those of others. Phil 2:3-4

What are you going to pray to the Lord about this situation, after all? Lord, please shut that brat up? Can we go to the Lord with our own need without remember the concurrent need of someone else? Of course children ought to be taught to focus and concern themselves with the experience of others, but the child ought to also be surrounded by people who are also obviously concerned with his or her experience, too. It needs to be all of one piece, without the desires of one being put above all the rest or the needs of one being neglected to pay attention to all the rest.

It is a difficult thing to balance, we can all admit that. Everyone needs to be concerned with the needs of others. The parents need to be concerned with the needs of fellow parishioners, and not their own family only, the children need to learn to consider the needs of others, and others need to be willing to make allowances for the families with members who are not mature yet.

The “crying room” is an innovation. I grew up in a church that did not have one and still does not have one*. Children are taken out when they are too loud, but they are not rushed out the minute they emit any squeals. Rather, it is thought that a parish without the sounds of children on Sunday is a parish that is dying. There is some truth to that. What child will grow up to love a parish at which the parishioners obviously do not love being around her?

The default is that all of the baptized have a right to be in church for Mass. The ideal is that no one needs to be in the cry room, or that it is used temporarily on an irregular basis by the parents of most children. Having said that, it is a convenience that ought to be seen by parents as kindly meant, and that it is out of kindness on their part that it is used when it is needed.

*My home parish church was built traditionally, with an enclosed vestibule. Let us face it: before and after Mass, the adults are every bit as disruptive as the children. The vestibule gave adults a place to exchange pleasantries and visit without disrupting the people who were praying in the nave. In a church with a vestibule, there were usually windows at least at the doors. It was the de facto “cry room,” except that nobody ever made it a habit to stay out there for the entirety of Mass, week after week. It was used on as-needed-right-now basis only. When churches started to be built with a wrong-headed “open concept,” the cry room was born soon thereafter.

 

[BartholomewB]

Hi Bart,

From a hygiene standpoint, women in the US seem to remove their flip flops more then men do (I’ve never seen a man do it in public except at the beach and that’s understandable), so I would have more objection to women wearing them at mass and in restaurants than men.

I don’t have a vendetta against flip flops, I just think they are inappropriate for church and restaurants. They are fine for at home, at the beach, at a fair, casual places.

In France, at least at the churches I’ve belonged to, people were WAY more formal, and wouldn’t dream of wearing flip flops to mass or to a restaurant. Here in the US, I tend to be one of the most formally dressed at mass because I’m wearing the clothes I wore in France, at least most of the time.

Lily

Thank you, Lily. Dress codes are constantly shifting, more quickly in some places and more slowly in others, and sometimes in different directions at the same time. It can get quite hard to keep up with the latest unwritten rules.

Regards
Bart

 

[holyrood]

I don’t think it’s wrong to move at all. I get tired of people saying that if we were really focused on God, we wouldn’t even notice the spaghetti straps and short shorts in front of us. Sorry, but it’s almost impossible not to notice. I think you are doing the right thing by simply moving, not making an issue, and taking yourself away from the distraction.

And TBH, if enough people simply want to sit away from such distractions, maybe people would start to realize that their clothing choices really do affect others and maybe really are not quite appropriate for Mass.

The toddlers pulling on clothing and exposing their mothers has been mentioned a few times. Having a large family, I’ve looked down all too often to find my skirt pushed too far up, or a button inadvertently pulled open. But I’m guessing that OP is talking more about clothes that were so scanty to begin with that it was bound to happen, rather than someone who is actually wearing modest clothing that sometimes does still get disarrayed by active, squirming toddlers. I do think there’s a big difference.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I don’t think it’s wrong to move at all. I get tired of people saying that if we were really focused on God, we wouldn’t even notice the spaghetti straps and short shorts in front of us. Sorry, but it’s almost impossible not to notice. I think you are doing the right thing by simply moving, not making an issue, and taking yourself away from the distraction.

And TBH, if enough people simply want to sit away from such distractions, maybe people would start to realize that their clothing choices really do affect others and maybe really are not quite appropriate for Mass.

The toddlers pulling on clothing and exposing their mothers has been mentioned a few times. Having a large family, I’ve looked down all too often to find my skirt pushed too far up, or a button inadvertently pulled open. But I’m guessing that OP is talking more about clothes that were so scanty to begin with that it was bound to happen, rather than someone who is actually wearing modest clothing that sometimes does still get disarrayed by active, squirming toddlers. I do think there’s a big difference.

Did you pay attention to the 2nd reading from St. James this past Sunday?

 

[LongingSoul]

Originally Posted by LongingSoul
I cannot imagine under what circumstances a lone child could be raised in an isolated cloister by the nuns … but that would most likely account for your strong intolerance of normal family Masses.
My friend’s mother was raised in a convent, in Australia, in the '20’s, because her two older sisters brought her with them when they joined the order. Because you cannot imagine a scenario does not make it unreal.

I was expressing confused surprised that such a situation could happen, not that it couldn’t happen.

I do not believe Lily has a strong intolerance of normal Masses. Seems to be uncalled for exaggeration on your part. Her posts, for the most part, have just advocated for noisy children who can’t be controlled to be taken to the “crying room”.

By the way, what is a “family Mass?”. Is that some kind of Mass that only allows families? A Mass is a Mass. Please don’t tell me that you believe we have different decorum for Mass depending on the familial relationships of the attendees!!

Normal family parish masses with many families. You know… as opposed to Masses with only nuns in a cloistered order who provide very little distraction in the way of ‘screaming for the hour on end’ or wearing clothes that show skin or kicking off their ‘flipflops’ and putting their feet up on the seat in front of them or bathing in perfume etc. The one environment is by nature going to be much more pleasant than the other will ever be and it’s likely that being raised in the first is going to make it harder to tolerate the latter.

Perhaps you could start approaching it from the angle that you have an issue to address rather than indicting the mothers and children who are dealing with normal mother/children issues?
No, it is for the parents to address their children who are out of control. Don’t falsely blame Lily who is merely pointing out that some parents seem oblivious to making an effort–not with normal issues, but out-of-control issues.

She admitted that she cannot relate to children due to her unusual upbringing. It’s perfectly reasonable to examine how that fact impacts on your experience in normal masses filled with families.

From experience, it is incredibly hard being the mother to small children and most of us try hard beyond measure, to turn out perfect, disciplined children. But it is an incredibly hard job.
Not just you, but everyone in the world has “hard jobs” to bear. Raising children is certainly one of them–not the only one, but one of them. If you want to be balanced, its best to not strive for perfection or imagine that others hold you to that goal, either. Doing your best is what is called for.

It’s often necessary to remind people particularly those who don’t have children or who are far enough out of mothering days, to feel critical of current struggling mums… that just getting everyone ready and getting to Mass every week is one pretty admirable achievement, let alone keeping them all sitting still and quiet for an hour.

 

[acadiANNA]

I think it is ok to change seats. Some change because they can hear better, some because they can see better, some because of strong smells, sometimes you see friends and relatives you decide to sit with and many other reasons. I would sit where you can fully participate in worship and thanksgiving at the Mass. I know that a priest puts the code of dress in the bulletin every few months. One time he said no sundresses. One parishioner he called down for a revealing neckline said that if she couldn’t wear what she wanted, she would not come to church. He spoke to her at the request of parishioners. If this person sits at the same place every time and it offends you, I would find another place to sit away from this person. Then you won’t have to move. I don’t think of flip flops as church shoes, but many in our parish think flip flops are fashionable and appropriate for church. I disagree. Any podiatrist will tell you that flip flops leave your feet vulnerable to diseases. They are not recommended except for beach wear.