Muhammad (pbuh), the Last Prophet

[BelFarfalla]

You can warp it with red ribbon and a cherry on top if you like, but a beating is a beating. Texts like “suggestion applies only in the case when the husband is seriously disturbed by a prolonged nasty behaviour” doesn’t make it one bit better, IMO.

Yea, and what when a wife is “seriously disturbed by a prolonged nasty behaviour”? She has almost no recourse but to shut up and put up.

 

[Khalfan]

Beatings avoid a divorce? No they are a main reason for divorce. This comment of yours if disgustng.

No my dear. Comparatively Divorce is very rare in Muslim families. Do you know why?

Each and every Muslim woman knows this verse of beating and still they remain in Islam. Do you know why?

Because they know, they too have equal rights against husbands.

 

[Sanctus_Vir]

Muhammad was a real prophet but he mis-used his power of speech and the things Gabriel told to him. He brought his own self down by using knowledge to kill his enemies. He tried making himself powerful but he was still choosen by the One god.

 

[Khalfan]

You can warp it with red ribbon and a cherry on top if you like, but a beating is a beating. Texts like “suggestion applies only in the case when the husband is seriously disturbed by a prolonged nasty behaviour” doesn’t make it one bit better, IMO.

Anyway, It is not for you my dear. It is for those who like to solve issues in husband wife relation without going for divorce.

Do you want me to give you the statistics of divorce in Christian world, Specially in European countries, even after it is a sin according to Bible?

 

[Khalfan]

John 8:58

“Before Abraham was, I am” -John 8:58

If eternity is the evidence for the divinity of Jesus (pbuh),

“For this Melchisedec, king of Salem,… which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually” -Hebrews 7:1-3

This king too is eternal; made like unto the Son of God; but not God! …Why?

If the name ‘I am’ that revealed to Moses (pbuh) is the evidence for the divinity of Jesus (pbuh), he didn’t use the same sentence/Name that God revealed to Moses, because the languages Moses and Jesus (pbut) using were different. Many people in that age and even today, use “I am,” in answer to many questions in everyday life. Are we claiming our divinity by saying ‘I am’?

 

[BelFarfalla]

No my dear. Comparatively Divorce is very rare in Muslim families. Do you know why?

Each and every Muslim woman knows this verse of beating and still they remain in Islam. Do you know why?

Because they know, they too have equal rights against husbands.

No my dear. I am from a Muslim country. I am extremely aware of how teh Muslim marraige works. Many Muslim women stay because they have no choices… if they get a divorce they have no way of earning a living, they loose their children (a woman will stay in any situation to stay with her children).

In most Muslim countries women have no right to ask for a divorce. It is only the man who does. I know Muslim women who have marraige contracts taht allow them to entact their husband’s right to divorce. For example she has to say three times “You divorce me.” But marraige contracts like this do not hold up well in court. The legal stance is that a man cannot sign away before marriage a right that is not his yet. So any marraige cnotract sigend before the marriage ceremony is complete might not hold up in court.

 

[Verisimilitude]

And where do you get real Jesus? Bible? Who wrote it? Mathew, mark, luke and John?

I challange you to ask two witnesses of any event and see if their accounts match exactly. Such “inconsistancies” are also found in the Koran. Muhammad says to ask the People of the Book for clarity of past texts, and then in another warns against listenting to them. Which takes precedent?

This is human nature. The divine nature of the Gospels is not contradictory. Yes, the NT has minor inconsistancies about specific events, but the events themselves are not in dispute. The Qur’an is very differnt in that regard.

Someoe wrote the ideas of John. that is why it called gospels ACCORDING to John.
Someoe wrote the ideas of Matthew. that is why it called gospels ACCORDING to Matthew.
Someoe wrote the ideas of Mark. that is why it called gospels ACCORDING to Mark.
Someoe wrote the ideas of Luke. that is why it called gospels ACCORDING to Luke.

You mischaracterize the Gospels as the ideas of the authors, and not the eyewitness accounts as passed on to them in the case of Luke. The others are accepted as from the Evangelists themselves even if they have taken some editing. The manner in which the Gospels were penned to the final form we know today is not a means to dismiss them. If you do, you should also dismiss every hadith, and the Koran.

According to Christian apologetics, four gospels are different angles of the same events. There is no problem with it if you can combine these four gospels of the same events and make it into a scene as it happened in reality.

This has been done many times. Have you ever seen a film called the Greatest Story Ever Told? There are hundreds of other films that depict the same series of events about the life, ministry and death/resurrection of Jesus. These films are representations of the NT. Let’s do that with Muhammads life.

Try the below gospels to combine.

Jesus going to the mountain…
• M’t:16:28: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. M’t:17:1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
• Lu:9:27: But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. 28: And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

After 8 days or 6 days?

I don’t know. I was not there. However, does the specific “6 days” in Matthew discount the ambiguious “about 8 days” in Luke? Why is that significant to dismiss the event?

In the gospel of Mark (10:17-18. see Luke 18:18-19), a man is reported to have asked Jesus,
• "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? "Jesus (P) simply replied, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother.’ "
• Look at the same event in Matthew. “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. …” (Matthew 19:16-17)

What was the actual question and answer?

The actual question was what the man must do to attain eternal life. Before answering, Jesus first made the comparrison to Himslef and God so that the man, in both accounts, would make that connection- which you seem to miss. Secondly, the answer was to obey the Commandments as you noted in your question to me. Do that, and Life is yours.

Jesus first met Simon Peter and Andrew…
• By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22)
• On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43)

The larger point is Jesus called these disciples. The smaller point as to where and when is really irrelevent. Does the river Jordan connect the sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea? Yes, so it is possible that both are correct.

The exact wording on the cross was…
• This is Jesus the King of the Jews (Matthew 27:37)
• The King of the Jews (Mark 15:26)
• This is the King of the Jews (Luke 23:38)
• Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews (John 19:19)

One of it can be true and the other has to be wrong. You tell me which one is true and which one is wrong.

All are correct.

You can’t get the real Jesus (pbuh) from Bible.

It is the only place the “real” Jesus is described. Where does Muhammad get his view of the “real” Jesus?

 

[Onesimus]

Lev. 10:9; Prov. 20:1 is contradicting 31:6-7 which gives exceptions. Bible indicates that it is a gift from God (Psalm 104:14-15). The very first miracle of Jesus was turning water into wine. None of these events mentioned in Quran.

Genesis 9:17 where it says the rainbow, as a token of covenant? Today we know why there is rainbow. You won’t find such stupid statement in Quran.

Bible says, the uncleanness of the women is double the period (80 days) if she gives birth to a girl in compare to giving birth to a boy (40 days)? Check Levi 12:2-5. You won’t find such statement in Quran.

How far the bitter water test (Num 5:12-31) is practical? Is there any priest alive who can do this? Quran doesn’t guarantee such a test.

Bible says, the sun was created on the third day (Genesis 1:13-18), how possibly the first 2 days and nights came into existence without the sun? May be God was the source of the light for the first two days; but the earth doesn’t move/rotate (1 Chr 16:30, Psalms 93:1, 96:10), how the day and night, morning and evening happened?

Bible gives an impression of a flat earth. If earth is a globe, which mountain was that high, that Jesus could see all the kingdoms (Matthew 4:8)? How could it be possible to see all countries from one spot? Also check Daniel 4:11; in the dream of Daniel all the people of earth could see the tree. You won’t find such statements in Quran.

Bible says, a different God existed (Judges 11:24), who could defeat the people of God in war, in response to sacrifice. Check 2 Kings 3:27. You won’t find such statements in Quran.

If a beat can avoid a divorce, why not? Wife too have similar rights on husband.

The mysteries of the kindom are hidden from your eyes. Thats why you can see a “flat earth” in the Bible, but you can’t see Luke 17:34-36.

 

[Verisimilitude]

No, they didn’t say they are the last.

Many false prophets said many things. Take Muhammad for instance.

You don’t believe Quran. No wonder.

Of course I do not accept the Koran.

But you don’t believe in Bible. That what I wonder why?!!

Where do you get that?

Jesus (pbuh) said about his God.

His God? Was He talking about another god?

“The Lord OUR God is one Lord” -Mark 12:29

No Catholic disputes that.

Jesus (pbuh) said about his works.

“…then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things” -John 8:28

“…My meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work”. –John 4:34

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me”. –John 5:30

Does that mean anything to you?

It means a great deal. Study the Trinity.

 

[Onesimus]

“Before Abraham was, I am” -John 8:58

Many people in that age and even today, use “I am,” in answer to many questions in everyday life. Are we claiming our divinity by saying ‘I am’?

No we aren’t claiming divinity, but Jesus was. That’s why the Jews immediately tried to stone him.

It’s not my fault you only have a superficial knowledge of the Bible, but your lack of insight is no more relevant than that of a schoolchild who claims “you can’t do math with letters,” because he’s unaware of Algebra.

 

[Booklover]

Khalfan;2372545.

Genesis 9:17 where it says the rainbow, as a token of covenant? Today we know why there is rainbow. You won’t find such stupid statement in Quran.

What is stupid about that statement? God used the rainbow to remind us of the covenant he made that he would never destroy the earth again by a flood.

No stupid things in the Quran? The sun sets in a murky spring? The stars were created as missiles to throw at the jinns?

Not to mention the wisdom of your “prophet” in stating that the devil sleeps up people’s noses at night and has to be washed out every morning. And Muslims do this when they do their ablutions!

How about the devil urinating in the ears of those who fall asleep during prayers? How will these do for a start?

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Muhammad was a real prophet but he mis-used his power of speech and the things Gabriel told to him. He brought his own self down by using knowledge to kill his enemies. He tried making himself powerful but he was still choosen by the One god.

If you are a Christian as your profile states, you cannot believe that Muhammad was a real prophet! He was just one of the false prophets that Jesus warned us about!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

No my dear. Comparatively Divorce is very rare in Muslim families. Do you know why?

Each and every Muslim woman knows this verse of beating and still they remain in Islam. Do you know why?

Because they know, they too have equal rights against husbands.

How about just out of fear?

Vickie

 

[Khalfan]

A good number of us here have read the Qur’an at least once. Many like me have read it many times and have studied Islam in some depth. It’s really not wise to come here and assume that we are ignorant… it is not wise to deny what is really in the Qur’an because we know the book very well. Just admit it… the Qu’ran and Shri’ah not only allow for wife beating but give instructions of when to do it.

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD’s commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) *beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. *
**
Shari’ah law restates the above telling a man when he should beat his wife.

I have listened to many talks given by Imam stating that a man can and should beat his wife… the trick is that they do not call it a ‘beating’, the call it a ‘correction’.

The Qur’an does not give men and women equal rights in marriage. It gives men the rights of control and great power over all of his wives. As long as a man can have more then one wife and he can beat his wives by law, then he has superior power over all of his wives.

The very same verse answers yuo very much. But you don’t see that. The sentence starts with 'If you experience rebellion from the women… ', what is it when the woman experience the same from the husband?

When the husband experience it, first he have to talk to her. But she don’t have to do that. She can directly go for divorce.

Secondly, he have desert her (stay away) in the bed. But she don’t have to do that. She can directly go for divorce.

Thirdly, he can beat her but not with hand, no mark, no blood, with something like folded cloth, a tooth brush, a pencil (And you call it a beating!!). But she don’t have to do that. She can directly go for divorce.

Still the husband can’t solve the issue, there are another rules for Islamic divorce. Call up a meeting between family members from both side. Here she too have to cooperate. But still she have the right to go for divorce if she wish.

There are three announcment of divorce periodically, where the third is the final and official. In the first and second, they still have the chance to rethink and join back. But she don’t have to wait. She can directly go for divorce.

If the husband still think, can’t live together, then only Islam allows the divorce. But she don’t have to wait. She can directly go for divorce.

A man must never, ever under any circumstance hit is wife.

Why? Well for one thing is only shows that he is weak and a bad leader. But most of all because once a man finds an excuse for hitting a wife it becomes easier and easier. The truth is that in Islamic society most women are beat by their husbands fairly regularly

HA… HA… Allegation? You think all are stupid?

Why do they not leave? Where will they go? They have no way of supporting themselves.

She have legal share in her fathers property.

I’ll have to look it up tonight but as I recall Shari’ah severely limit’s a woman’s right to ask for a divorce and her rights during a divorce… For example she loses custody of her children… they automatically go the husband.

Islam gives all the power in a marriage to the husband.

Atomatically?!!

It is case to case my dear. The sharia court can decide on it, to whom the responsibility of custody can be given. The women that want the custody of her children cannot marry to any other man. Because that man may not consider her children as his own. That is why in most of the cases, the custody of children are given to the father than mother. Otherwise it can be given to mother as well.

‘It is not lawful for you to try to hold your wives against their will, and neither shall you keep them under constraint with a view to taking away anything of what you may have given them…’ -Quran4:19

The laws of Islam doesn’t have fit with your views on life. Instead, Islam provides a way life for those who seek.

What I learn from Islam, regarding marital relationship is this,

“Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think.” (30:21)

 

[Khalfan]

No my dear. I am from a Muslim country. I am extremely aware of how teh Muslim marraige works. Many Muslim women stay because they have no choices… if they get a divorce they have no way of earning a living, they loose their children (a woman will stay in any situation to stay with her children).

In most Muslim countries women have no right to ask for a divorce. It is only the man who does. I know Muslim women who have marraige contracts taht allow them to entact their husband’s right to divorce. For example she has to say three times “You divorce me.” But marraige contracts like this do not hold up well in court. The legal stance is that a man cannot sign away before marriage a right that is not his yet. So any marraige cnotract sigend before the marriage ceremony is complete might not hold up in court.

I am talking about what Islam allows and not allows. I am not talking about what all Mulim contries practice. There are muslim contries where sharia laws are not practieced like Pakistan.

 

[eleonardo]

Anyway, It is not for you my dear. It is for those who like to solve issues in husband wife relation without going for divorce.

I’m sorry. I’m remaining by my original statement. No matter which way you turn it, it’s just wrong and not to mention cowardly to beat a women. You trying to justify this disturbs me.

It is case to case my dear. The sharia court can decide on it, to whom the responsibility of custody can be given

Is this the same court that requires 4 eye witnesses in case of rape?

I am talking about what Islam allows and not allows. I am not talking about what all Mulim contries practice. There are muslim contries where sharia laws are not practieced like Pakistan.

Pakistan? lovely country to live in as a young girl:

MEERWALA, Pakistan — A tribal council in Pakistan ordered an 18-year old girl to be gang-raped as a punishment for the “insult” of her brother allegedly having an affair with a woman in her late 20s, who was from a higher caste family. The four-man raping detail included some members of the tribal council who had passed the sentence, including its reported leader, Faiz Bux, who is 34.

 

[Khalfan]

He once hit Aisha so hard in the chest that he hurt her. She recorded a hadith about it. OF course he never divorced any of them… he just kept marrying more and more… he had what 12 or 14 wives and slave girls. Some example of marital bliss.

The main point is that he told men that they can hit their wives.

WoW… a new story.

 

[eleonardo]

What is stupid about that statement? God used the rainbow to remind us of the covenant he made that he would never destroy the earth again by a flood.

No stupid things in the Quran? The sun sets in a murky spring? The stars were created as missiles to throw at the jinns?

Not to mention the wisdom of your “prophet” in stating that the devil sleeps up people’s noses at night and has to be washed out every morning. And Muslims do this when they do their ablutions!

How about the devil urinating in the ears of those who fall asleep during prayers? How will these do for a start?

Vickie

I like the one where it states sperm comes from the backbone

 

[Khalfan]

The mysteries of the kindom are hidden from your eyes. Thats why you can see a “flat earth” in the Bible, but you can’t see Luke 17:34-36.

Lu:17:34: I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Lu:17:35: Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu:17:36: Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

What does it say?

 

[Khalfan]

I challange you to ask two witnesses of any event and see if their accounts match exactly. Such “inconsistancies” are also found in the Koran. Muhammad says to ask the People of the Book for clarity of past texts, and then in another warns against listenting to them. Which takes precedent?

Clear the doubts with the real people of the books.

Don’t listen to those who claim to be ‘People of the books’.

What is wrong in that?

There was people who believed in Jesus (pbuh) as a messenger.

This is human nature. The divine nature of the Gospels is not contradictory. Yes, the NT has minor inconsistancies about specific events, but the events themselves are not in dispute. The Qur’an is very differnt in that regard.

Yes. You are right. Because Quran is not the GOSPELS according to USMAN talking about the life Mohamed (pbuh).

You agree that there are inconsistancies. But you want to name it ‘minor’. Why there is inconsistancies if it is written by eyewitnesses? Specially when all the writing was ‘Spiritually’ inspired? As far as I know, there is only one Holy spirit. But that same Spirit inspired to write different things in different gospels.

You mischaracterize the Gospels as the ideas of the authors, and not the eyewitness accounts as passed on to them in the case of Luke. The others are accepted as from the Evangelists themselves even if they have taken some editing. The manner in which the Gospels were penned to the final form we know today is not a means to dismiss them. If you do, you should also dismiss every hadith, and the Koran.

WHY EDITING?!!!

You don’t have two similar Bibles printed in just 100 years. The KJV itself revised 5 times over last 400 years. The NIV says KJV contains many major mistakes. 7 books are still with Question mark regarding ‘Inspiration’.

We don’t have those problems with Quran. Quran was never printed at the time of Prophet (pbuh). It was to memorise and we do that even today. Making it into a book was a later idea of the companians.

Even if any one rules the whole world and destroy entire copies of Quran around the world, you think it will be lost? No. It is very easy to recreate copies of Quran, from all part of the world, at the same time, without even a single spelling mistake.

That is what makes Quran different.

This has been done many times. Have you ever seen a film called the Greatest Story Ever Told? There are hundreds of other films that depict the same series of events about the life, ministry and death/resurrection of Jesus. These films are representations of the NT. Let’s do that with Muhammads life.

No. I have seen movies about Life of Jesus. One was according to gospel of John. Other was according to Luke. From that itself, I found differences.

There is No movies made on the life of Prophet Muhamed (pbuh). Even if there is any, you wont find a character him.

When you think of Jesus, you have certain image in your mind. When you think of mary or Gabriel have certain images in your mind. Because you Christians have lot of pictures and movies on Jesus (pbuh) and Mary (pbuh) and others. You visualise their face even after you know that it is not real face of Jesus and Mary (pbut).

We don’t make such stupid images and characters of prophet (pbuh) so that we can stop visualising his face. Because we know, what we draw in our imagination is not real.

I don’t know. I was not there. However, does the specific “6 days” in Matthew discount the ambiguious “about 8 days” in Luke? Why is that significant to dismiss the event?

Wow… the significant is,

The Holy Spirit failed to inspire both the writers in providing the same correct number of days. Since it is uninspired, you have to put the event under ‘apocrepha’.