Muslim converts to Christianity

[Sister_Amy]

That is because you are not well-read.

Majority of Islamic scholars consider Tawassul to be permissible. In all four madhabs of Fiqh, Tawassul is permissible, the Hanbali, the Maliki, the Shafi, and the Hanafi.

In fact, Ibn Taymiyyah ( a Hanbali scholar) is the first scholar, to oppose Tawassul. Even in the Hanbali madhab, Ibn Taymiyyah works on fiqh are not really studied.

In Christ,

Silouan

Did you study in the Hanbali madhhab? Or are you just trying to sound like you know what you’re talking about?

And didn’t you read that quote I gave earlier? If you ask, ask of Allah, and if you seek help, seek help of Allah. Why do you people want to pray to something else? I just don’t get it.

Because actually one of my very good friends has completed a bachelor’s in Shari’ah from a Hanbali school and he studied Ibn Taymiyyah rather extensively.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You definitely have a Wahabi understanding of Islam. Without doubt. I use to be Salafi, because I follow the correct understanding of Traditional Sunni Islam.

I understand your mentality, therefore, I realize it would be almost impossible to convince otherwise because I use to be Salafi/Wahabi).

In Christ,

Silouan

My sheikh is Hanafi.

I hope jen_fla can see that it’s just a way people try to marginalize certain opinions. You can call me a Wahhabi or Salafi or whatever. I am a Muslim and don’t need any of your labels.

 

[Sister_Amy]

In the 1800, Abdul Wahab, revived the teachings of Ibn Taymiyyah and oppose the Traditional Sunni Muslims, and labled them mushirks, kafirs etc etc. Because of the Saudi Oil, this heretical Islamic sect was able to spread across the globe as true Islam, this Wahabism, is the origin of the terrorist Osama Bin Laden. People who want to oppose Traditional Sunni Islam to follow their desires, kill innocent people and shed blood.

1700s actually, and not Abdul Wahhab but Ibn Abdul Wahhab and his goal was not to oppose “traditional sunni muslims” but to eliminate the actual shirk which had crept in to the society. They weren’t heretical, and neither do they call “traditional sunni muslims” mushriks. That’s unfortunately what has been said about them, and while it might be a practice of the laypeople, the scholars would shy away from calling anyone a kaafir who declared laa ilaaha illallah.

Osama bin Laden really has nothing to do with “wahhabism” (whatever that means) but got caught up in the teachings of Qutb which you haven’t pointed out.

Saudis have a maashaaAllah wonderful understanding of a basic Islamic concept–tawheed. Tawheed means the oneness of God. Has nothing to do with killing people as Silouan would lead us to believe.

 

[Sister_Amy]

They did not ask him if there is more than one God…they asked a clear answer and the Ijma’ of the Sunna does say the Quran is eternal and uncreated and there is no deity except Allah.

You have totally missed the point, and it wasn’t really that deep either.

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal–you know who this was, right? Like, when he lived?

I don’t even know what you mean by “Ijma’ of the Sunna.” This view was NOT popular at this time, and the Imam, may Allah have mercy on him, was tortured for not acknowledging the popular view.

But instead of letting the people fall into confusion over this matter (which I’m pretty sure is what you’re trying to do) he brought them back to the same essential foundation that there is nothing worthy of worship except Allah.

And actually when I read this story (quite recently) it reminded me of how you keep bringing this up as if to say that the Qur’an has consciousness or deserves worship as a personality of the divine. And in fact the best way to answer you, I think, is in the way of Imam Ahmad.

Laa ilaaha illALLAH!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy,
In your posting’s you stated:

“No offense or anything, but I think you had a need for spirituality before you left Islam. Reading books and eating only dhabihah, avoiding music and movies–that doesn’t make you a spiritual person.”

Silouan seems not only to have an excellent grasp of Islam and Christianity, but also a very deep spirituality.

Perhaps then you did not read his post in the same way which I read it. If I’m correct (and I am unfortunately too lazy to double check) then he said that after he left Islam, he had a need for spirituality. To which I replied, his need for spirituality preceded his apostasy. And when he explained his practice of Islam, (I’ll use an analogy I think you can understanding) he described Islam the way a Pharisee might have described Judaism at the time of Jesus, basically following the law and nothing else! And such a person has clearly missed the boat on religion. So I was looking at him as if he were a Pharisee.

I’m sorry if your feeling’s were hurt. I’ve been very facinated with this thread because of my admiration of Devout Muslim’s, and have re-read the whole thing in an attempt to learn more. Is you’re statement above not an attack…or maybe at least a challenge?

It really has nothing to do with my feelings being hurt, but rather that I am properly understood, which in your case I don’t think I was. I had no intention to attack Silouan. But challenge? Perhaps. Extract from him his real motivation for leaving Islam since so far, for me, it doesn’t add up.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well, being thretened that someone would call the cops on you is not the same as being shot at multiple times by your own father as Mark Gabriel, an Egiptian convert to Christianity was. He has had assassins sent after him, who stubbded him and left him for dead. He lived, by the grace of God, to tell the truth. Many are not that lucky and do not survive conversion from Islam.
The family who gave him his first Bible had their business burned to the ground, and had to flee Egipt.

That is a definition of “immensely painful”, and not what you described.

The point is, sister Amy, you had a choice and you made it. Your family is probably scared that you would try to convert your nieces and nephews, therefore they do not allow contact.

In Christianity you are free to make choices. I guess, you did not believe that you were a child of God, or that God loved you enough to die for you.

As for me, I prefer to be a child of God, not His slave or servant.

If anyone is interested in learning more about conversion from Islam to Christianity, please get you hands on a book “Jesus and Muhammad”, by Mark A. Gabriel.

God Bless.

I already read that book. And I feel bad for you if you actually believe that story to be truth. Seriously, if I see someone pulling Mark Gabriel out into a serious discussion about Islam and converts… I kind of turn off. I don’t understand how people believe things like that… but then, I guess people believe what they want and turn off common sense when it comes to religion.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The Holy Spirit never gives contradictory revelation. What some think is a revelation is just a figment of their imagination. They think they are guided by the Holy Spirit, but they really are not.

God Bless.

Yeah I totally agree with the part in bold!!! Hahaha

 

[Angelos]

Yeah I totally agree with the part in bold!!! Hahaha

I totally agree with Malgosia that What some think is a revelation is just a figment of their imagination. They think they are guided by the Holy Spirit, but they really are not.

Mohammad was one of those people.

 

[dzheremi]

Is this a good thread to mention that Mohammad Abdel Wahab is one of my favorite Arabic singers and oud players? Soooo much nicer than that other guy with the similar name that you guys are fighting over…

 

[planten]

Sure.

Sure.

Sure. If you receive revelation from God then can you PM it to me please?

Wallaahi, Jesus was a preacher and he did not preach anything but the Good News which God revealed to Him, with the wisdom God granted him. If you believe in Jesus, then follow HIS teachings. My good friend and I who were both Christian have this same view about the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel–that they were compelling proofs towards Islam.

If Jesus did not leave a Holy book, then you can throw out the New Testament right? And you can throw out the Old Testament as well, right? If He left you with the Holy Spirit, then I guess the Holy Spirit is giving everyone contradictory revelation… quite problematic, wouldn’t you say?

Jesus left a message, the message he preached, and he left it with his disciples.

Said he, according to some Christian sources:

You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

** Sis Amy, you have given a perfectly correct reply to silouan. You reply is very gentle too. That person is mistaken, does not know the meaning of Prophet. If every one of the christians was a prophet then they should prophesize, tell something they received from their God. There is nothing they receive. In fact the church denies any revelation now. They have closed the door to all types of revelation.

The example of the salt was very good. The church has lost the teachings, the essence of Jesus teachings. If Jesus ever came back to this world, he will not be able to see any of his own people. Jesus never said that he was God. He never preached even a single day that he was God. He was never worshipped as a God.

But the christians would have every one believe that Jesus was God. That being completely against the teachings of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and against all prophets mentioned in the bible OT. How come they want to lead the world to the worship of a mere innocent man (Jesus)?**

 

[inJESUS]

You have totally missed the point, and it wasn’t really that deep either.

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal–you know who this was, right? Like, when he lived?

I don’t even know what you mean by “Ijma’ of the Sunna.” This view was NOT popular at this time, and the Imam, may Allah have mercy on him, was tortured for not acknowledging the popular view.

But instead of letting the people fall into confusion over this matter (which I’m pretty sure is what you’re trying to do) he brought them back to the same essential foundation that there is nothing worthy of worship except Allah.

And actually when I read this story (quite recently) it reminded me of how you keep bringing this up as if to say that the Qur’an has consciousness or deserves worship as a personality of the divine. And in fact the best way to answer you, I think, is in the way of Imam Ahmad.

Laa ilaaha illALLAH!

so you are saying that the consensus (sp?) of Ahlul Sunna wal Jama’a about the Quran being eternal and uncreated is shirk?

 

[inJESUS]

It is crucial to note that the Quran does not mention the intercession of Mary as shirk…the Quran is refuting that she is a deity…Mary used to eat food

 

[planten]

See 1 Corinthians 15

This is fun.

While we’re at it, got any stuffed grape leaves?

** What Corinthians has got to do with Jesus. Is that the words of Jesus? If it is not in the 4 gospels then it need not be anything. Not enough proof. Specially if it is from paul then no need to believe that.

It is described above by Muslim woman that Jews persecuted and killed and downgraded (disrespected) the prophets. The Christians did the opposite. They raised the ranks of prophet (mankind) to that of a God. The christians raised the ranks of mere followers of Jesus to that of lords.

In Quran it is strictly told not to take any one as a Lord beside Allah. That was also a teaching of the OT too.**

 

[planten]

I totally agree with Malgosia that What some think is a revelation is just a figment of their imagination. They think they are guided by the Holy Spirit, but they really are not.

Mohammad was one of those people.

** Not so. Please understand that Jesus told you all about the coming of the holy ghost or holy spirit. He said he had many things to say unto the people but the people could not bear it at that time. See all that in the John ch. 16 or 17.

He said, " Howbeit when the spirit of Truth is come, he shall guide you into all truth. For he shall not speak for himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.

And he shall show you things to come…"

It means the message and mission of Jesus was not complete and he went away. He gave the good news of some one to come after him to lead people to all truth. The christians call that Holy spirit. But holy spirit was already with Jesus and some disciples.

At another place Jesus says " He shall give you another Parclete". It means one parclete is there already and God will give another Parclete.

Please remember and tell if any one had seen the holy spirit walking about with Jesus?? No. The holy spirit was with Jesus and his disciples but nobody saw the holy spirit…

Similarly, the holy spirit that is to come to lead people unto all truth will also be with some one. The spirit will not be hovering around in the air. We Muslims believe that the Holy spirit came upon Muhammad and gave all the messages. That is the angel Gabriel which is called the holy spirit in the Quran as Rooh ul Ameen.

The holy spirit that was told by Jesus had come true to Muhammad. But church denies it on various grounds. There is no excuse. If the holy spirit can visit Joseph the carpenter, it can visit the wife of Pilate, it can visit Jesus and his disciples then why it cannot come to Muhammad?**

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace;

… Quran is refuting that she is a deity…Mary used to eat food

Quran & other holy books & all the Prophets including Jesus , Muhammed (pbut) taught us that God is only one without partner ---- there is no other diety except one true God.

"The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary,
was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away;

and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness,
**and they both ate food (as other mortals do). **

See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!"

(Quran 5:75).

And Muhammad is no more than an apostle;

the apostles have already passed away before him;

if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels?

And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.

[3.144]

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace;

**

… He gave the good news of some one to come after him to lead people to all truth. The christians call that Holy spirit. But holy spirit was already with Jesus and some disciples.

**

holy Spirit was already there even before Jesus (p) was born , Christans am I right ?

During the time of Jesus (p) , people were were looking for ’ That Prophet ’ . I wonder , why Christans don’t think about this . Ok , if **that Prophet is not Muhammed (p) , who is he ? ** Can’t be holy Spirit as he was already there .

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam/peace;

Quran & other holy books & all the Prophets including Jesus , Muhammed (pbut) taught us that God is only one without partner ---- there is no other diety except one true God.

 

[Good_Fella]

** Not so. Please understand that Jesus told you all about the coming of the holy ghost or holy spirit. He said he had many things to say unto the people but the people could not bear it at that time. See all that in the John ch. 16 or 17.

He said, " Howbeit when the spirit of Truth is come, he shall guide you into all truth. For he shall not speak for himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.

And he shall show you things to come…"

It means the message and mission of Jesus was not complete and he went away. He gave the good news of some one to come after him to lead people to all truth. The christians call that Holy spirit. But holy spirit was already with Jesus and some disciples.

At another place Jesus says " He shall give you another Parclete". It means one parclete is there already and God will give another Parclete.

Please remember and tell if any one had seen the holy spirit walking about with Jesus?? No. The holy spirit was with Jesus and his disciples but nobody saw the holy spirit…

Similarly, the holy spirit that is to come to lead people unto all truth will also be with some one. The spirit will not be hovering around in the air. We Muslims believe that the Holy spirit came upon Muhammad and gave all the messages. That is the angel Gabriel which is called the holy spirit in the Quran as Rooh ul Ameen.

The holy spirit that was told by Jesus had come true to Muhammad. But church denies it on various grounds. There is no excuse. If the holy spirit can visit Joseph the carpenter, it can visit the wife of Pilate, it can visit Jesus and his disciples then why it cannot come to Muhammad?**

Jesus sent the Paraclete to give birth to his Church on the foundation of the apostles and to guide her in all truth until the end of the age. Our Lord never mentioned that there would be someone coming after him to found a new religion. In fact he warned us of false prophets who would come after him. The Old Testament points to the Messiah who will establish a New Covenant between God and his people. Divine revelation is completed in the divine Person Jesus Christ and stops there. But it continues to unfold and manifest itself more explicitly in the life and teachings of the Catholic Church by the activity of the Holy Spirit.

PAX
Good Fella

 

[dzheremi]

Ughhhh…the olddddd, tiresome “what if _____ mentioned in the Bible is a prophecy about Muhammad?” Try as Muslims might (with known forgeries like the “Gospel of Barnabas”), Muhammad is NOT found anywhere in the Bible, nor even hinted at. Muslims can read whatever they want into our scripture (after all, they do it with their own all the time, so why should we expect them to be any less subjective with those they don’t respect at all, like the Bible?), but it’s just not there. Get over it.

What if all parts about the commandments of “Allah” in the Qur’an are REALLY talking about the commandments of Muhammad? See, that’s not very nice, is it?

 

[inJESUS]

Ughhhh…the olddddd, tiresome “what if _____ mentioned in the Bible is a prophecy about Muhammad?”

yes Allah couldn’t care less about the prophets’ teachings but when it came to Muhammad, he miraculously stopped the “corruptors” from “corrupting” the references about Muhammad…mashallah…