Muslim coworker debate

[Niblo]

But they do have an agenda and ALL of them want an ALL Muslim world and believe we are but a hindrance.

This is not correct (except when applied to a puritan minority). The Qur’an makes it clear that people are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

This is what the Qur’an has to say about the ‘People of the Book’ – an honorific title given to Jews and Christians – who are true to their religion:

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8).

As you can see, such people are assured of Paradise. This is the Exalted’s promise, and He does not renege on His promises; nor does any person - any creature - have the power to make it otherwise. It has been my privilege to know - and to love - many Christians (having been one for over sixty years) who loved both God and mankind with all their hearts, and who were beacons of light for their Faith. I have no doubt at all that each and every one of them is with their Lord. They trusted in His promises, and so do I!

 

[ThePlottingPlodder]

what is your occupation?

 

[ServusDei1]

Muslims will sometimes lie on purpose if it is for “the greater glory of Allah.” Perhaps he is doing this? As for the racist thing, Catholics were among the first integrationalists in the US.

 

[ServusDei1]

“Those aren’t real Muslims!” Well then those Catholic priests are not Catholic but in name only.

 

[Niblo]

Muslims will sometimes lie on purpose if it is for “the greater glory of Allah.”

Really? Then please help me out here.

I know of this: ‘You who believe, be mindful of God: stand with those who are true.’ (Al-Tawba: 119).

And this: ‘(Such trials are ordained) so that God may reward the truthful for their honesty…’ (Al-Ahzab: 24).

And this: ‘God does not guide any ungrateful liar.’ (Al-Zumar: 3)

And this: ‘God does not guide any rebellious, outrageous liar.’ (Ghafir: 28).

Where in the Qur’an does it say that God is glorified by lying?

 

[Odilon]

I have heard Muslims themselves admit this. The fact is, the most despicable atrocities of late have been committed by Muslims and they are praised by other Muslims, especially when any Jews are involved.

 

[Odilon]

Yeah, and they also say that others, including “people of the book”, should be treated as 2nd class citizens in Muslim controlled areas. A special tax should be imposed on them (if they are not killed outright as part of Jihad).

 

[Odilon]

"It is called, The principle of Al-Takeyya The book “The spirit of Islam,” by the Muslim scholar, Afif A. Tabbarah was written to promote Islam. On page 247, Tabbarah stated: “Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and settlement of conciliation among the people, than telling the truth. To this effect the Prophet says: He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good, or says what is good”.

And from the Quran:

[Quran (16:106)]Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.

[Quran (3:28)]- This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves” against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

[Quran (9:3)] “…Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters…” The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir [vol 4]
“Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths…”

[Quran (40:28)]A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to “hide his faith” among those who are not believers.

“Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts”

[Quran (3:54)]- “And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara , which literally means ‘deceit’. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.

 

[Niblo]

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.

ServusDei1 wrote: ‘Muslims will sometimes lie on purpose if it is for the “greater glory of Allah.”

My question was: Where in the Qur’an does it say that God is glorified by lying?

He has yet to answer this question. However, you have offered a number of Qur’anic verses, and deserve a response. This will need to be done over four posts.

Concerning Al-Nahl: 106:

‘With the exception of those who are forced to say they do not believe, although their hearts remain firm in faith, those who reject God after believing in Him and open their hearts to disbelief will have the wrath of God upon them and a grievous punishment awaiting them.’

Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

‘This verse is believed by most commentators to have been revealed about the case of ʿAmmār ibn Yāsir, an early Makkan convert to Islam whose parents were tortured and killed because of Islam and who was himself coerced through torture and threat of death into outwardly renouncing his faith. When the Prophet was told of this matter, he denied that ʿAmmār had truly renounced Islam, and when ʿAmmār later came to the Prophet weeping with regret, the Prophet asked him, “In what state was your heart?” ʿAmmār replied, “At peace in faith”. The Prophet consoled him and indicated that he approved of what he had done.

‘This verse was then revealed, indicating an exception for those who renounce their faith outwardly under duress while their hearts are at peace in faith, for God only holds one to account for what one believes in one’s heart.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’).

Nothing here about lying for the greater glory of God.

 

[Niblo]

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Concerning Al‘Imran 28:

‘The believers should not make the disbelievers their protectors (’_awliyā_ʾ).’

Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

In this context, protectors renders awliyāʾ (sing. walī), a multifaceted word that can mean “protector,” “ruler,” “ally,” “client,” or “friend” depending on the context. The subject matter here is not friendship in the ordinary sense, but allegiance and group alignment in which the political stakes go beyond mere confessional identity ….it is primarily the political dimension that is in view.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’).

Nothing here about lying for the greater glory of God.

Concerning Al-Tawba: 3-4:

‘On the Day of the Great Pilgrimage (there will be) a proclamation from God and His Messenger to all people: “God and His Messenger are released from (treaty) obligations to the idolaters. It will be better for you (idolaters) if you repent; know that you cannot escape God if you turn away.” (Prophet), warn those who ignore (God) that they will have a painful punishment. As for those who have honoured the treaty you made with them and who have not supported anyone against you: fulfil your agreement with them to the end of their term. God loves those who are mindful of Him.’

It is clear that these verses have nothing to do with lying or deceit. They deal with political matters. Nothing here about lying for the greater glory of God.

 

[Niblo]

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Concerning Ghafir: 26-28:

‘And Pharaoh said, “Leave me to kill Moses – let him call upon his Lord! – for I fear he may cause you to change your religion, or spread disorder in the land.” Moses said, “I seek refuge with my Lord and yours from every tyrant who refuses to believe in the Day of Reckoning.”

‘A secret believer from Pharaoh’s family said, “How can you kill a man just for saying, “My Lord is God”? He has brought you clear signs from your Lord – if he is a liar, on his own head be it – and if he is truthful, then at least some of what he has threatened will happen to you. God does not guide any rebellious, outrageous liar.

My people, as masters in the land you have the power today, but who will help us against God’s might if it comes upon us?” But Pharaoh said, “I have told you what I think; I am guiding you along the right path.”’

As you can see, these verses speak of Pharaoh’s desire to kill Moses. Pharaoh is challenged by a member of his own family – one sympathetic to Moses and to his cause. Nothing here about lying for the greater glory of God.

 

[Niblo]

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Concerning Al‘Imran: 50-54:

‘I have come to confirm the truth of the Torah which preceded me, and to make some things lawful to you which used to be forbidden. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. Be mindful of God, obey me: God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him – that is a straight path.”’

‘When Jesus realized they (still) did not believe, he said, “Who will help me in God’s cause?” The disciples said, “We will be God’s helpers; we believe in God – witness our devotion to Him. Lord, we believe in what You have revealed and we follow the messenger: record us among those who bear witness (to the Truth).” The (disbelievers) schemed (‘wamakarū’) but God also schemed (‘wamakara’); God is the Best of Schemers (‘l-mākirīna).’

The one sent to confirm the truth of the Torah is, of course, Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām). His enemies plotted against him, but were outsmarted by God.

Nothing here about lying for God’s greater glory,

The words ‘wamakarū’; ‘wamakara’; and ‘mākirīna’ are derived from the root ‘mīm kāf rā’; meaning to scheme or to plot. The verb ‘to lie’ or to ‘deny’ (what is known to be true) stems from the root ‘kāf dhāl bā’, and is never used of God. God is ‘not a man that he should lie’ (Numbers 29:13).

Perhaps ServusDei1 will answer my question: Where in the Qur’an does it say that God is glorified by lying?

 

[Theprodigalson84j]

I know I feel like hes mixing up Catholics and Mormons which is such an incredible offense.
But they didn’t allow blacks to be bishops I believe until the 1970s. And have a history of racism.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I eat shrimp and pork

 

[TheLittleLady]

Until I took the time to form relationships, to have real conversations with actual Muslims, I had many of the ideas posted here.

Thing is, I have met many cradle Catholics who believe all Protestants are Once Saved Always Saved or that all Protestants are “Baptists” or that Non Denominationalists are just Baptists or that all non-Catholics are some other sort of fundamentalist evangelical.

I’ve met non-Catholics who think all Catholics worship Mary because all they have read are out of context quotes from St Louis de Monfort.

I’ve met Catholics who call the Ordinary Form the “Norvus Ordo” and will not sit foot in such a Mass.

To imagine that Muslims all hold the exact same interpretation and interpretations of doctrine demonstrates a lack of education in Islam. There are people on the far fringe of every side and people in a range of center.

 

[Niblo]

To imagine that Muslims all hold the exact same interpretation and interpretations of doctrine demonstrates a lack of education in Islam. There are people on the far fringe of every side and people in a range of center.

Exactly. Thank you.

By the way, your Dachshund needs to have an eye out for my cat. She’s quite certain that the world belongs to her!

 

[PetraG]

Until I took the time to form relationships, to have real conversations with actual Muslims, I had many of the ideas posted here.

Thing is, I have met many cradle Catholics who believe all Protestants are Once Saved Always Saved or that all Protestants are “Baptists” or that Non Denominationalists are just Baptists or that all non-Catholics are some other sort of fundamentalist evangelical.

I’ve met non-Catholics who think all Catholics worship Mary because all they have read are out of context quotes from St Louis de Monfort.

I’ve met Catholics who call the Ordinary Form the “Norvus Ordo” and will not sit foot in such a Mass.

To imagine that Muslims all hold the exact same interpretation and interpretations of doctrine demonstrates a lack of education in Islam. There are people on the far fringe of every side and people in a range of center.

Exactly. As for the OP, if he wants to stay on good terms with this co-worker, I’d say he needs to lay down boundaries on the fellow. If the fellow will have none of it, he is not much of a friend, not matter what sort of fanatic he is this year (since the fellow has had quite a journey in terms of his belief system, and may not be done trying on sizes…)

 

[ServusDei1]

Who, the Mormons?

 

[Rayne2Step]

Well I wont speculate, but nor am I interested at all with the writings in the Qur’an, but again I hold firm and believe what Catholic Answers published on Battle of Lepanto. Peace be with you