Muslims battle against translation of i am

[schaick]

" καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς μωυσῆν **ἐγώ εἰμι **ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς iσραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς "

The problem with the above quote from the Greek Septuagint (LXX) at Ex 3:14 is that the expression “ἐγώ εἰμι” is incomplete and makes it look, because of limiting the expression, as though it agrees with the same expression in John 8:58 “ἐγώ εἰμι”.

The author of the above Septuagint quote, either does not know Greek or know it very well or is being economic with the empirical facts for theological reasons! The full expression found at Ex 3:14 (LXX) should actually be “ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν” and not “ἐγώ εἰμι”! The full expression “ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν” is entirely different to the one found in John 8:58 and means “I am the Being” or “I am the One” whereas, the expression found in John 8:58 is a temporal expression denoting time and not identity.

Readers should look at how (for example) the New Living Translation handles the original Greek at John 8:58,

" Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

Footnotes:

John 8:58 Or before Abraham was even born, I have always been alive; Greek reads before Abraham was, I am. See Exod 3:14.

Notice how the translators in their foot-note recognise the temporality of the expression, but erroneously point to Ex 3:14 in an effort to maitain their theology, but do not inform their readers, that Ex 3:14 is an entirely different expression to the one found in John 8:58; bias and theology are at play here; many translations do not even bother to inform their readers at all, never mind in a foot-note!

Many readers because of their lack of familiarity with classical or koine Greek are at the mercy of theologically motivated translators and their translation committees, who tend to translate according to their biases and theology and this is seen in several English translations! Readers only tend to find out differences when they begin to compare English translations with the one or ones they already possess, but have no way of checking them, asthey are not familiar with the original Greek and if translators are found to be biased, then there is a good chance that sources for checking…at times will be found to be biased also, as an agenda is at play and it is called theology!

The best way is to learn the language and then check for yourself, you will be horrified at the liberties taken by several translators…!

Spud

Have you ever used Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)?

John 8
58Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham’s coming – I am;’

 

[CompSciGuy]

Muslims are told that they do not have a leg to stand upon if they do not accept the Torah and Gospel however they believe that we corrupted them . They have no proof whatsoever of this .

This is the difficult thing… because even if we can prove to them that the gospels reveal the divinity of Christ, they can still dismiss it and say “well, the New Testament is not as reliable as the Quran anyway.”

 

[Defender1]

This is the difficult thing… because even if we can prove to them that the gospels reveal the divinity of Christ, they can still dismiss it and say “well, the New Testament is not as reliable as the Quran anyway.”

You have a point they are taught in the Quran that we are wrong no matter what we say about the Muslim faith . Muhammad covered his tracks when writing this book .

 

[Defender1]

don’t you think that it’s valid for muslims to think that may be the jews didn’t give jesus the chance to complete his statment , as if he was using the words " I am " as verb not as noun !

If you read the entire text from Jesus mouth in John 8 and the entire text from Exodus 3:14 you would see the connection.Because not only do we have the connection of the words "I AM " but we also have Jesus claiming that Abraham actually seen him . When the Jews were questioning him on this , he started in on being "I AM "

 

[spudmurphy]

Have you ever used Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)?

John 8
58Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham’s coming – I am;’

Reply,

What has YLT got to do with the empirical facts, as all it does is parrot other Trinitarian translations at John 8:58, you have made no point or offered any rebuttal?

The Hebrew and Greek of Ex 3:14 is an entirely different expression, as pointed out, to the expression in John 8:58 and this is a basic mistake that Trinitarians make, especially those who know nothing about these two languages and so, they are deemed to repeat what their sources tell them to belief and blindly too, as they are ignorant of the source labguages and stuck with English!

Your reply speaks for itself!

Are you able to offer a proper rebuttal?

Spud

 

[elwill]

If you read the entire text from Jesus mouth in John 8 and the entire text from Exodus 3:14 you would see the connection.Because not only do we have the connection of the words "I AM " but we also have Jesus claiming that Abraham actually seen him . When the Jews were questioning him on this , he started in on being "I AM "

i read the whole chapter of john 8
the conversation between them was very long , and in most of it he trying to tell them that his father sent him and he doing the acts of his father … etc (with another word he said to them i was sent by God , and never said i’m God himself
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43“Why do you not understand what I am saying?

you trying to support your beliefs in this verse by what jews understood from jesus (pbuh)
the group whom jesus said to them
25So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning?

we have the all conversation between jesus and jews , and all what you do is to ignore the converstation itself and focus in understanding of jews for the words of jesus and also ignore that jesus condemned them with misunderstading !

56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
this verse dosn’t necesserly means that jesus was exist in the time of abraham (pbuh) , most probably it’s the opposite , may be abraham is the one who saw that day or knew about it as a prophecy or even saw it while he is in heavin

isn’t it possible !

 

[schaick]

Reply,

What has YLT got to do with the empirical facts, as all it does is parrot other Trinitarian translations at John 8:58, you have made no point or offered any rebuttal?

The Hebrew and Greek of Ex 3:14 is an entirely different expression, as pointed out, to the expression in John 8:58 and this is a basic mistake that Trinitarians make, especially those who know nothing about these two languages and so, they are deemed to repeat what their sources tell them to belief and blindly too, as they are ignorant of the source labguages and stuck with English!

Your reply speaks for itself!

Are you able to offer a proper rebuttal?

Spud

lol!! attack mode really? oh my goodness! labguages!?! really!!

I was wondering what you thought of the translation. My understanding is that is is word for word nothing extra added to fill out meaning. If there is an added word they are put in ( ).

For example check out the binding and loosing verses:
Matthew 16
19and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.’

Matthew 18
18`Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

These verses have been mistranslated and** do not give **the Disciples control over saying what can be bound and loosed, GOD has already bound and loosed. The Disciples must agree.

 

[spudmurphy]

i read the whole chapter of john 8
the conversation between them was very long , and in most of it he trying to tell them that his father sent him and he doing the acts of his father … etc (with another word he said to them i was sent by God , and never said i’m God himself
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43“Why do you not understand what I am saying?

you trying to support your beliefs in this verse by what jews understood from jesus (pbuh)
the group whom jesus said to them
25So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning?

we have the all conversation between jesus and jews , and all what you do is to ignore the converstation itself and focus in understanding of jews for the words of jesus and also ignore that jesus condemned them with misunderstading !

56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
this verse dosn’t necesserly means that jesus was exist in the time of abraham (pbuh) , most probably it’s the opposite , may be abraham is the one who saw that day or knew about it as a prophecy or even saw it while he is in heavin

isn’t it possible !

Reply,

Hello elwill,

Trinitarians on here are not accepting the empirical data! As pointed out to Trinitarians the expressions found in John 8:58 and Ex 3:14 are not the same, but Trinitarians are forcing the expression of John 8:58 “ego eimi” to fit the one on Ex 3:14 “ego eimi ho on”

John 8:58 New Living Translation (Trinitarian)

"Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

Now notice the foot-note to the above translation and its alternative reading:

“John 8:58 Or before Abraham was even born, I have always been alive; Greek reads before Abraham was, I am.” See Exod 3:14.

Notice the temporal sense of the first part of the sentence, “…before Abraham was even born…”

The expression, “was born” indicates temporality!

Notice the second part of the sentence: “…I have always been alive…” again plainly showing a sense of temporality, so where Trinitarians get the sense of “identity” is beyond belief and can only be the result of either blind or deliberate theological bias!

The term"alive" that the NLT translators use is consistent with “eimi”, so that “am” and “alive” are synonymous, therefore, interchangeable terms, but Trinitarins try to insist that “ego eimi” (I am, exist, existing etc) is the same as the expression (Ex 3:14) “ego eimi ho on” (I am the One or the Existing One") and what Trinitarians are doing here, in order to make their identity of Jesus agree with the expression found in Ex 3:14, is to leave off part of the expression, so that, instead of the full expression “ego eimi ho on”, Trinitarians leave out “ho on” and we are left with “ego eimi”, as this is the only way they can force and mis-apply the text in John and in Exodus to agree with their Trinitarianism, but it is false and I still see ignorant and biased and I have recently had this with some Trinitarians…!

Trinitarians try this word play and, as I am here, I have just encountered several Trinitarians using the spurious text of 1 John 5:7, 8, which means they are still trying it on hoping nobody will notice, or are ignorant of manuscript research, as all these Trinitarians have to do, look at modern Trinitarian translations and they will notice that 1 John 5:7, 8 are omitted as spurious, false, inserted by a monk in times long before the introduction of the 1611 KJV bible!

It would seem that Trinitarians are running around still trying to make John 8:58 fit Ex 3:14, whilst ignoring the empirical data put in front of their faces, which leaves me to think that they are told from early one and it is driven into them, that their teachers are right and anybody who challenges their position is wrong, no matter what data is shown to them and if Chist or one of the Apostles were to show such data, they would still reject it!

Trinitarians should take into consideration the texts from various Trinitarian bibles:

2 Cor 1:3; Eph 1:3 and 1 Pet 1:3 as just a few examples!

If Jesus is truly “God”, then he has One who is “God” to him, so that the Trinitarian “God” has himself a God, who is over and above him! See also John 5:26, 27 where Jesus, thesecond person of the so-called Trinity, who is supposed to be God as the Father is God and in the fullest sense, hasd to be “granted/given” immortality by another!

Spud

 

[spudmurphy]

lol!! attack mode really? oh my goodness! labguages!?! really!!

I was wondering what you thought of the translation. My understanding is that is is word for word nothing extra added to fill out meaning. If there is an added word they are put in ( ).

For example check out the binding and loosing verses:
Matthew 16
19and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.’

Matthew 18
18`Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

These verses have been mistranslated and** do not give **the Disciples control over saying what can be bound and loosed, GOD has already bound and loosed. The Disciples must agree.

Reply,

“My understanding is that is is word for word nothing extra added to fill out meaning. If there is an added word they are put in ( ).”

This only shows that you do not have the slightest know how, as to how Greek grammar works, its syntax, nuance and semantics etc!

“I was wondering what you thought of the translation.”

The transliterated “ego eimi” is and can be rendered as “I am”, but that is where Trinitarians start to take liberties and I have pointed these liberties out, but as usual, Trinitarians just ignore them or sweep the empirical data under the proverbial carpet!

See my reply to “elwill”!

“If there is an added word they are put in ( ).”

What you do not know, or has been kept from you, is that just as there are 48 translations that translate in a similar way to the NWT at John 1:1 and of these 48, there are 18 that translate exactly as does the NWT, either as “a god” or “a God”, so too there are translations that translate similar to th NWT, here is one such example, other on request (not that it will do trinitarians any good!)

John 8:58 New Living Translation (Trinitarian)

"Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

Notice the footnote to John 8:58,

“Before Abraham was even born, I have always been alive; Greek reads before Abraham was, I am. See Exod 3:14.”

The expressions in john 8:58 and Ex 3:14 are entirely different expressions, but Trinitarians leave of the “ho on” (LXX) part of “ego eimi ho on”, thus giving Trinitarians “ego eimi”, and not “ego eimi ho on” (I am The Being or I am The Existing One)

The text of John 8:58 is a temporal text (time related), not one dealing with identity, as seen in the phrase, “…you are not yet 50 years old and yet you have seen Abraham…” and the Trinitarian NLT reads, "Before Abraham was even born, I have always been alive." (In its footnote)!

What you do not seem to sense or understand is the contextual understanding behind the expression “ego eimi” and “ego eimi ho on” Trinitarians mis-apply the above and it is all too clear!

Spud

 

[Defender1]

i read the whole chapter of john 8
the conversation between them was very long , and in most of it he trying to tell them that his father sent him and he doing the acts of his father … etc (with another word he said to them i was sent by God , and never said i’m God himself
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43“Why do you not understand what I am saying?

you trying to support your beliefs in this verse by what jews understood from jesus (pbuh)
the group whom jesus said to them
25So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning?

we have the all conversation between jesus and jews , and all what you do is to ignore the converstation itself and focus in understanding of jews for the words of jesus and also ignore that jesus condemned them with misunderstading !

56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
this verse dosn’t necesserly means that jesus was exist in the time of abraham (pbuh) , most probably it’s the opposite , may be abraham is the one who saw that day or knew about it as a prophecy or even saw it while he is in heavin

isn’t it possible !

Your argument is not strong enough here , now The Jews understood what he was saying when he said "I AM " That is why they tried to kill him in that situation ."Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day , he saw it and was glad " Abraham was not a prophet . Jesus is the son in the trinity . In MAtt 28:19 Its says they were to be baptize in the name of the father, and to the son , and to the holy spirit " this is 3 divine persons in one God . Jesus is the son in that equation . Jesus was seen by Abraham . The Jews knew what he was saying .

 

[elwill]

Your argument is not strong enough here , now The Jews understood what he was saying when he said "I AM " That is why they tried to kill him in that situation ."Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day , he saw it and was glad " Abraham was not a prophet . Jesus is the son in the trinity . In MAtt 28:19 Its says they were to be baptize in the name of the father, and to the son , and to the holy spirit " this is 3 divine persons in one God . Jesus is the son in that equation . Jesus was seen by Abraham . The Jews knew what he was saying .

they seeking to kill him from the beginning , before saying " i am "

39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

jews used to kill their prophets , it’s not necessery to claim divinity , proclaiming to be a prophet from God was enough for them to seek killing them
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning,

 

[spudmurphy]

they seeking to kill him from the beginning , before saying " i am "

39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

jews used to kill their prophets , it’s not necessery to claim divinity , proclaiming to be a prophet from God was enough for them to seek killing them
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning,

Reply, Part I)

Hi elwill,

Here is a copy of my reply to a Fr Vincent Serpa, a Catholic apologist, whilst I am a JW apologist, it comes in two parts and any refutation will be welcomed with specific points etc! I asked the initial question of whether John 8:58 was dealing with temporality (time) or identity?

Hello Vincent,

You responded:

“Hi Spud,

Both: He was dealing with His identity which transcends time. In Exodus 3:13-15 God reveals Himself to Moses as: “I AM WHO AM (or I AM WHO I AM). St. Thomas Aquinas tells us that it is the very essence of God to exist. He is totally independent existence. We, as well as all creation, are dependent beings. We depend on our creator for our existence. But God depends on no one but Himself for existence. His essence is existence.

So when Jesus said in John 8:58, “I tell you most solemnly, before Abraham was, I AM,” He was identifying Himself as God. This is why people picked up stones to throw at Him because they understood this quite well and assumed that He was blaspheming. It didn’t occur to them that He really WAS God. For more, see:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #s 206 - 209.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P. “

Reply,
Is John 8: 58 really dealing with ‘identity’ as well as time? I am really interested in what the grammar and the context is saying here and not the opinion, as opinion is that, just an opinion and not empirical data!

The OP Question was,
“Is John 8:58 dealing with temporality (time) or is it dealing with ‘identity’? Is the expression found in John 8:58, the same as the expression found in Ex 3:14 (LXX) thus proving identity, that the Son is God, as the Father is God or does the grammar and the context reveal something very different?

If you think it is dealing with ‘identity’ could you please be specific and give some corroborating examples!”

Ex 3:14 NASB

“God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’”

The expression in Ex 3:14 can be written as, “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Which in Hebrew can be written, ה ר ה (’Eh-yeh′ ’Asher′ ’Eh-yeh′), God’s own self-designation; Scholars, Leeser, “I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE”; Rotherham, “I Will Become whatsoever I please.” Gr., E-go′ ei-mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”.
The expression ’Eh-yeh′ comes from the Heb. verb ha•yah′, “become; prove to be.” Here ’Eh•yeh′ is in the imperfect state, first person sing., meaning “I shall become”; or, “I shall prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. “Yahweh/Jehovah,” where the kindred, but different, Heb. verb ha•wah′ appears in the divine name.

See Part II

 

[spudmurphy]

Hello,

Part II

The above falls into the category of what is called P.P.A. (Past Present Action) or as other scholars term it “Extension of Time”. Before Abraham came in to existence an action occurred or started and still is in progress, on-going, it is not a completed action! In the Greek LXX at Ex 3:14 we have “eimi”, this is in the first person singular and is also in the present indicative form in Greek and can be rendered into English as the ‘perfect indicative’ many fail to see the linguistic grammatical difference in the translation, that one is in Greek and one is in English…! We can see examples of this kind of syntax in several scriptures, such as, Lu 2:48; John 5:6; Acts 15:21; 2 Cor 12:19 and 1 John 3:8 are but a few examples of this kind of syntax!
This may seem confusing to some, even contradictory, but a small example should suffice, so that the point is made and so cleared up!

John 15:27 original Greek

καὶ ὑμεῖς δὲ μαρτυρεῖτε, ὅτι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἐστε.

The phrase we need to concentrate on is,

“ὅτι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἐστε.”

Which roughly translated is, “…because you have been with me from the beginning.” And this is how the translators behind the NASB (and others) have rendered the original Greek into English! To the layman, this might seem very confusing, but all it is saying, is that, there are times when the present will and does include the past tense, seen in the example above from John 15:27, the disciples have been with Jesus from the beginning (the start of the action) and have continued with him up to the present (continued action from the past) the action up until the moment of speaking (by Jesus) has not been completed, it is not a completed action and scholars also call this action ‘ a state in its duration’!

Notice what the Greek says,

“ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἐστε.” (you have been with Me from the beginning.)

The transliterated Greek reads, “from beginning with me you are” Here we can sense and see, that the disciples have been with Jesus from the start (beginning) and have stuck with him all the way through his trials and tribulations, right up to the present, including the moment he is speaking to them; the past and the present all rolled up into one! Now we might be able to see, that Jesus is not dealing with ‘identity’ but is dealing with a state in its duration, an action that started in the past and continued, it was a Past Present Action and Extension of time, an action that was on-going and this is what the context and grammar of the verb “eimi is telling us!”

Just a note from the scholar Moulton on this point:

A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by J. H. Moulton, Vol. III, by Nigel Turner, Edinburgh, 1963, p. 62, says: “The Present which indicates the continuance of an action during the past and up to the moment of speaking is virtually the same as Perfective, the only difference being that the action is conceived as still in progress . . . It is frequent in the N[ew] T[estament]: Lk 248 137 . . . 1529 . . . Jn 56 858 . . . ”

So, here we can see, that the Present constitutes a continued Past Action, which is, “virtually the same as Perfective, the only difference being that the action is conceived as still in progress…” and is common throughout the NT texts!

Just a secondary point Vincent! Many endeavour to connect or identify Jesus with YHWH/JHVH, they say that Greek “ego eimi” is the same as the Hebrew “ani hu” which is a designation God uses for Himself, but many fail to see, that in 1 Chron 21:17 that very same designation is use of a human? And the expression found in john 8:58 “ego eimi” is not the same as the one found in Ex 3:14 (LXX) as scholars have pointed out that in Ex 3:14 the full expression is “ego eimi ho on” (I am The Being or I am The One) translators of the various translations tend not to inform their readers of the difference between the two expressions, they are not referring to the same person, but different persons, so I have to disagree with you on the point of “Both”, as it is clear grammatically and contextually that the statement made in John 8:58 by Jesus is referring to temporality (time) only and not identity (of ‘being’) as this identity is merely a Greek philosophical and metaphysical hangover from the apologists and church fathers who blended such with Christian belief, so as to attract and appease the Platonic pagan masses into the congregations, but that is debate for another time!

PS,

I’m awaiting a reply from Fr Vincent Serpa.

Regards,

Spud

 

[schaick]

Reply,

“My understanding is that is is word for word nothing extra added to fill out meaning. If there is an added word they are put in ( ).”

This only shows that you do not have the slightest know how, as to how Greek grammar works, its syntax, nuance and semantics etc!

“I was wondering what you thought of the translation.”

The transliterated “ego eimi” is and can be rendered as “I am”, but that is where Trinitarians start to take liberties and I have pointed these liberties out, but as usual, Trinitarians just ignore them or sweep the empirical data under the proverbial carpet!

See my reply to “elwill”!

“If there is an added word they are put in ( ).”

What you do not know, or has been kept from you, is that just as there are 48 translations that translate in a similar way to the NWT at John 1:1 and of these 48, there are 18 that translate exactly as does the NWT, either as “a god” or “a God”, so too there are translations that translate similar to th NWT, here is one such example, other on request (not that it will do trinitarians any good!)

John 8:58 New Living Translation (Trinitarian)

"Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

Notice the footnote to John 8:58,

“Before Abraham was even born, I have always been alive; Greek reads before Abraham was, I am. See Exod 3:14.”

The expressions in john 8:58 and Ex 3:14 are entirely different expressions, but Trinitarians leave of the “ho on” (LXX) part of “ego eimi ho on”, thus giving Trinitarians “ego eimi”, and not “ego eimi ho on” (I am The Being or I am The Existing One)

The text of John 8:58 is a temporal text (time related), not one dealing with identity, as seen in the phrase, “…you are not yet 50 years old and yet you have seen Abraham…” and the Trinitarian NLT reads, "Before Abraham was even born, I have always been alive." (In its footnote)!

What you do not seem to sense or understand is the contextual understanding behind the expression “ego eimi” and “ego eimi ho on” Trinitarians mis-apply the above and it is all too clear!

Spud

No I have it, lol! I was trying to help you make your point. The literal translation shows it does appear incomplete. As for myself a Trinitarian explaining Christianity to Muslims on many different forums for over 10 years I have never used that verse to prove Jesus was a part of the Trinity.

There are so many other verses that prove that others knew Jesus was or knew He was equating Himself with GOD.

GOD’s Word incarnate:
John 1

Jesus considers Himself equal to GOD:
John 5
18because of this, then, were the Jews seeking the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

Jesus saying*** I am not of this world: ***
John 8
23and he said to them, `Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world;

24I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

A disciple recognizes who Jesus is- Jesus does not correct him.
John 20
28And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God;' 29Jesus saith to him, Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed; happy those not having seen, and having believed.’

Others wanting to stone Jesus for making Himself equal to GOD:
John 10
30I and the Father are one.’

31Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him;

32Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?’

33The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.’

Colossians 2
9because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

**Phillipians 2 **
5For, let this mind be in you that [is] also in Christ Jesus,

6who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

Verses where people are** calling on the name of the Lord- praying to Jesus:**
1 Corinthians 1
1Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother,

2to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place – both theirs and ours:

3Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Acts 7
59and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;’

There are all of the bowing down verses implying worship and translated from the literal as worship, but Catholics will tell you that bowing down does not imply worship.

And then Revelations:
Revelations 1- Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

 

[schaick]

Now , I have been In debates with Muslims time and time again .The subject is Christ being GOD . I quoted from John 8:56-58 Where Christ confirms that he is “I AM” and I made the connection between that verse and EXODUS 3:14 Where GOD tells Moses to tell them that "I AM " sent him. This stubbed them for a moment , because their Quran tells them that those who speak against them and their book lie and they believe so , so whatever angle they can push to get their points across , they will . I am not a big studier of the Greek language . A middle eastern Muslim came back to me with an explanation . He said that the translation is different and does not translate to I AM.They also confirmed that neither verses translate to I AM. I came back with more points such as john 8:56 when Christ speaks of Abraham rejoicing to see his day and when he did was glad .Meaning that Abraham saw him . They came back with John 9:9 when the beggar confirms that I am . (notice I am and not I AM because the beggar was confirming who he himself was)CHrist and GOds I Am was included in a statement they were making .It seems as though they read from Muslim commentary and not the actual verses . YEt John 9:9 they claimed is the same exact translation as I AM in John 8:58 . AS you can see they are pricking at straws BUT DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THE TRANSLATIONS OF I AM ?

Have you read the Quran? It is very interesting that in the Quran Jesus is unique above all even Mohammad.

That is not to say that I believe the Quran is from GOD. The Quran should be used as nothing more then a study guide and not the way Muslims use it! To understand the Quran Muslims should read the Gospel.

Kalimatullah’ – ‘The Word of God’
**‘Ruhullah’ – ‘A Spirit from God’ **
‘Al Masih’ – ‘The Messiah’
4.171: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Yā 'Ahla Al-Kitābi Lā Taghlū Fī Dīnikum Wa Lā Taqūlū Alá Al-Lahi 'Illā Al-Ĥaqqa ۚ 'Innamā Al-Masīĥu Īsá Abnu Maryama Rasūlu Al-Lahi Wa Kalimatuhu 'Alqāhā 'Ilá Maryama Wa Rūĥun Minhu ۖ Fa’āminū Bil-Lahi Wa Rusulihi ۖ Wa Lā Taqūlū Thalāthatun ۚ Antahū Khayrāan Lakum ۚ 'Innamā Al-Lahu 'Ilahun Wāĥidun ۖ Subĥānahu 'An Yakūna Lahu Waladun ۘ Lahu Mā Fī As-Samāwāti Wa Mā Fī Al-'Arđi ۗ Wa Kafá Bil-Lahi Wa Kīlāan

Gabriel speaking to Mary about her son and His sinlessness
19.19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, to thee the gift of a holy son
Please note that the Quran speaks about the sins of other prophets: Adam 7:22-23, Abraham 26:82, Moses 28:16, Jonah 37:142, even Muhammad 47:19.

**His ascension into heaven **
4.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Quran speaking of Jesus’ second coming
43.61 And shall be a Sign the Hour: therefore have no doubt about the, but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

 

[spudmurphy]

No I have it, lol! I was trying to help you make your point. The literal translation shows it does appear incomplete. As for myself a Trinitarian explaining Christianity to Muslims on many different forums for over 10 years I have never used that verse to prove Jesus was a part of the Trinity.

There are so many other verses that prove that others knew Jesus was or knew He was equating Himself with GOD.

GOD’s Word incarnate:
John 1

Jesus considers Himself equal to GOD:
John 5
18because of this, then, were the Jews seeking the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

Jesus saying*** I am not of this world: ***
John 8
23and he said to them, `Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world;

24I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

A disciple recognizes who Jesus is- Jesus does not correct him.
John 20
28And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God;' 29Jesus saith to him, Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed; happy those not having seen, and having believed.’

Others wanting to stone Jesus for making Himself equal to GOD:
John 10
30I and the Father are one.’

31Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him;

32Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?’

33The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.’

Colossians 2
9because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

**Phillipians 2 **
5For, let this mind be in you that [is] also in Christ Jesus,

6who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

Verses where people are** calling on the name of the Lord- praying to Jesus:**
1 Corinthians 1
1Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother,

2to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place – both theirs and ours:

3Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Acts 7
59and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;’

There are all of the bowing down verses implying worship and translated from the literal as worship, but Catholics will tell you that bowing down does not imply worship.

And then Revelations:
Revelations 1- Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

Reply,

All you have typed is all old stuff and is easily answered and has been elsewhere and on differnt forums!

Here is one example that is often used as a Trinity proof text and the torn to shreds under a simple examination, when when shown, shows the bias and limitations of lay Trinitarians!

"Others wanting to stone Jesus for making Himself equal to GOD:
John 10:30, I and the Father are one.’ "

So, you think that the scripture in John 10:30 is saying that Jesus is God, in that “I and the father are one”?

You must either be naive or do not know the tetxs of the NT!

John 17:20-23 NIV (Trinitarian)

" 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, **just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us **so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Do I have to spell it out to you?

Would you like one of our young ones to spell it out for you!

Who really blindly swallows what?

Spud

 

[schaick]

Reply,

All you have typed is all old stuff and is easily answered and has been elsewhere and on differnt forums!

Here is one example that is often used as a Trinity proof text and the torn to shreds under a simple examination, when when shown, shows the bias and limitations of lay Trinitarians!

"Others wanting to stone Jesus for making Himself equal to GOD:
John 10:30, I and the Father are one.’ "

So, you think that the scripture in John 10:30 is saying that Jesus is God, in that “I and the father are one”?

You must either be naive or do not know the tetxs of the NT!

John 17:20-23 NIV (Trinitarian)

" 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, **just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us **so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Do I have to spell it out to you?

Would you like one of our young ones to spell it out for you!

Who really blindly swallows what?

Spud

You are saying that they wanted to stone Jesus because He wasn’t making Himself equal to GOD?

blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1520&t=KJV

one heis 1520

Verses as used in Matthew the same word for 1 specific unit, person, thing:
one1520 jot 2503
one1520 of thy 4675 members
a1520 mile 3400
hate 3404 the one1520
hold 472 to the one1520
one1520 cubit
one1520 of these 5130
a certain1520 scribe
one1520 of these 5130 little ones 3398
one1520 sheep 4263
a certain1520 ruler
one1520 pearl 3135
one1520 of the prophets 4396
shall receive 1209 one1520 such 5108
etc.

Mark used as some in just a few verses, but most often as one:
some1520 thirtyfold 5144, some 2532 1520 sixty 1835, and 2532 some1520 an hundred 1540
one1520 of the rulers of the synagogue 752
one of1520 the prophets 4396
one1520 loaf 740
one1520 of 1537 the multitude 3793
one1520 son 5207
is 2076 one1520 God 231
a1520 certain 5100 young man
etc.

Luke
one1520 of them 846
one thing1520
one1520 cubit
one1520 sinner 268
the one1520 shall be taken 3880

John
one1520 of 1537 the twelve 1427
one1520 of 1537 them 846
one1520 shepherd 4166
one1520 the children 5043 of God 2316
one1520 of 1537 you 5216 shall betray 3860 me 3165
may be 5600 one1520 in 1722 us 2254
that one1520 man 444 should die 622
one1520 of the soldiers 4757
etc.

used in John as in one mind:
one1520 of 1537 his 846 disciples 3101that 2443 they may be 5600 one1520, as 2531 we 2249

So are you saying that Jesus believed He was going to be stoned because He was one in mind with GOD?

Holy Spirit a Person of the Trinity:
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

 

[Big_Dummy]

1.The present infinitive “to be” (einai) is a derivative of the present tense verb εἰμι (eimi) which literally means “I am.” If Jesus had wanted to say “I was,” He could have easily used the imperfect tense ἤμην (ēmēn), for “I was,” instead of using the present tense ἐγὼ εἰμί (egō eimi).

1. Contrary to the Society’s claims, the Greek phrase ho ohn, which is employed in the LXX (Septuagint) translation of Exodus 3:14, is actually a present participle, and while eimi is present indicative, both are present tense forms of the same infinitive “to be” (einai) and both indicate timeless existence given the context of these passages.5. The Jews who lived at the time of Christ were well familiar with the Greek Septuagint, and as a result, clearly saw the connection (Leviticus 24:16), for they tried to stone Jesus for blasphemy (verse 59). The Jews had no laws commanding the stoning of people who merely thought of themselves as being angels!! Indeed, Jesus in His Divine nature has “neither beginning of days nor end of life” (Hebrews 7:3) for He has always existed as God throughout all eternity.

1. The New World Translation correctly translates ego eimi as “I am” in nearly every place throughout the New Testament except where it appears in John 8:58. 6.Why the inconsistency in translation? The translation of the present tense ego eimi as “I am” in this context indicates a continuous existence, without beginning and without end, and therefore contradicts the Society’s claims that Jesus is a created being—the archangel Michael. Thus, in an attempt to make this verse compatible with their doctrine, they chose to translate the present tense ego eimi as “I have been,” thereby losing the connection between the Greek Septuagint’s rendering of “I am” in Exodus 3:14 and Jesus’ statement of “I am” in John 8:58. The bias of the Society’s New World Translation against the Deity of Jesus Christ is clearly demonstrated when one compares this translation with the Greek-English Kingdom Interlinear translation that is also distributed by the Watchtower Society.

4witness.org/jwysbt/ysbt_ch7.php#s4b

Isaiah 44:6
New King James Version (NKJV)

There Is No Other God
6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

  ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; 
  Besides Me there is no God.

carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/john-858-abraham-came-existence-i-have-been

Isaiah 48:12-16
New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Ancient Plan to Redeem Israel
12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
** I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last. **
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
** I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.” **

“The fact that the Jews attempted to stone Jesus after hearing the
words I am shows that it suggested to them the divine name so
translated in the LXX version of Ex. iii.14.” – R.V.G. Tasker,
Tyndale Commentary on John (Downers Grove, IL: IVP, 1960).

And,

“It is not easy to render into Greek the Hebrew underlying passages
like Exod. 3:14. The LXX translators did so with the same form that
we have here.” – Leon Morris, New International Commentary on the
New Testament, John (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1971), p. 473.

Here we have two experts in N.T. Greek (Morris was also proficient in
classical and Septuagint Greek) who saw the of John 8:58
as a direct reference to the LXX of Exodus 3:14.

 

[Defender1]

they seeking to kill him from the beginning , before saying " i am "

39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

jews used to kill their prophets , it’s not necessery to claim divinity , proclaiming to be a prophet from God was enough for them to seek killing them
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning,

Him claiming I AM was in reference to Exodus 3:14 when God told Moses to say that I Am sent him . Simple as that . Argument is clear as day could not be any more clear

 

[Defender1]

Have you read the Quran? It is very interesting that in the Quran Jesus is unique above all even Mohammad.

That is not to say that I believe the Quran is from GOD. The Quran should be used as nothing more then a study guide and not the way Muslims use it! To understand the Quran Muslims should read the Gospel.

Kalimatullah’ – ‘The Word of God’
**‘Ruhullah’ – ‘A Spirit from God’ **
‘Al Masih’ – ‘The Messiah’
4.171: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Yā 'Ahla Al-Kitābi Lā Taghlū Fī Dīnikum Wa Lā Taqūlū Alá Al-Lahi 'Illā Al-Ĥaqqa ۚ 'Innamā Al-Masīĥu Īsá Abnu Maryama Rasūlu Al-Lahi Wa Kalimatuhu 'Alqāhā 'Ilá Maryama Wa Rūĥun Minhu ۖ Fa’āminū Bil-Lahi Wa Rusulihi ۖ Wa Lā Taqūlū Thalāthatun ۚ Antahū Khayrāan Lakum ۚ 'Innamā Al-Lahu 'Ilahun Wāĥidun ۖ Subĥānahu 'An Yakūna Lahu Waladun ۘ Lahu Mā Fī As-Samāwāti Wa Mā Fī Al-'Arđi ۗ Wa Kafá Bil-Lahi Wa Kīlāan

Gabriel speaking to Mary about her son and His sinlessness
19.19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, to thee the gift of a holy son
Please note that the Quran speaks about the sins of other prophets: Adam 7:22-23, Abraham 26:82, Moses 28:16, Jonah 37:142, even Muhammad 47:19.

**His ascension into heaven **
4.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Quran speaking of Jesus’ second coming
43.61 And shall be a Sign the Hour: therefore have no doubt about the, but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

Have you read the Quran ? I would not be here posting if I did not . I have read it and find that I have read it more then not only Nation of Islam but middle eastern muslims as well .
alot of copying as well from us