Muslims - Prove that islam existed before muhammad..

[hamba2han]

A little Arabic lesson here:

‘Islam’ means surrender or submission to the will of God… and someone who “does” Islam is a ‘mu-Islam’ → Muslim

In other words, a Muslim is someone who surrenders or submits to the will of the Lord.

Prophet Abraham (pbuh), just like all the Prophets (peace be upon them all) who came before and after him, surrendered to the will of the Lord and this makes him a “doer” of Islam i.e. a Muslim.

 

[algebra]

The above passage of the Qur’an is most certainly explaining that Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim i.e. someone who submits to the will of the Lord.

For those who are insisting that Abraham (pbuh) was a Jew, can you kindly point to the passage of the Bible which says this?

Abraham was most certainly a submitter, but not in the same spirit as the Quran.

I agree islam has always existed, however it is not present in the Quran.

As I stated islam is surrender to God.

what mohammed taught was surrender to God, and him (claiming to be the prophet of God)

However this was never ever islam.

 

[algebra]

In other words, a Muslim is someone who surrenders or submits to the will of the Lord.

Prophet Abraham (pbuh), just like all the Prophets (peace be upon them all) who came before and after him, surrendered to the will of the Lord and this makes him a “doer” of Islam i.e. a Muslim.

I agree, Abraham was a muslim.

However you are not a muslim if you follow Mohammed.

 

[algebra]

Find me the second part of the kalima anywhere in the Bible.

Where does a prophet demand submission to him?

 

[jakasaki]

A timely reminder from the Qur’an:

Al-Qur’an, 003.065-069
O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
Lo! ye are those who argue about that whereof ye have some knowledge: Why then argue ye concerning that whereof ye have no knowledge? Allah knoweth. Ye know not.
Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Guardian of the believers.
A party of the People of the Scripture long to make you go astray; and they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not.

The Qur’an is absolutely right of course i.e. those who argue about these matters have no knowledge whatsoever about them and they really are basing their arguments on nothing but conjecture.

At the time of the divine revelation to Prophet Moses (pbuh), how on earth can anyone then except God Himself know for certain what really happened at the time of Prophet Abraham (pbuh)?

The above passage of the Qur’an is most certainly explaining that Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim i.e. someone who submits to the will of the Lord.

For those who are insisting that Abraham (pbuh) was a Jew, can you kindly point to the passage of the Bible which says this?

It’s hard to understand why the koranic Abraham is different than the Biblical one.

In the koran, Abrahams father is called “Azar”. Koran 6:74

…when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest.

In Genesis: 11:27

This is the record of the descendants of Terah. **Terah became the father of Abram, **Nahor, and Haran, and Haran became the father of Lot.

The stories of Abraham are a bunch of mish-mash in the koran and just don’t come close with the Biblical versions.

Since the 5 Books of Moses were created 3000 years **before **islam and mohamad, the character in which islam basis its-self on is not the Biblical one.

And God made a covenant with Abraham for Isaac - not Ishmael.

God does **not **break His word.

This whole thing with islam is all wrong on all levels.

Regardless of what the word islam means in todays definition/terminology…

Islam was created in the 7th century by a self made prophet driven by a spirit which WAS NOT GOD…, called his followers muslims.

 

[hamba2han]

… And God made a covenant with Abraham for Isaac - not Ishmael…

And how do you know for certain that this is true?

Refer to the passage of the Qur’an (003.065-069) which I have quoted for guidance on this.

 

[hamba2han]

I agree, Abraham was a muslim.

However you are not a muslim if you follow Mohammed.

Actually, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) followed the religion of Prophet Abraham (pbuh).

"Then we inspired you (O Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idol-worshiper." … [Al-Qur’an, 16:123]

And to further elaborate, it is much better that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself explain his position with regard to the earlier Prophets like Jesus, Moses and Abraham (peace be upon them all).

Abu Huraira reports that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:

"My position, in relation to the prophets who came before me, can be explained in the following example: ‘A man erected a building and adorned his edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche in the corner, where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche! I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in line of the prophets.’" (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim.)

Therefore, the Message that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought is only a continuation of the revelations brought by earlier Prophets and the deen (way of life) of Islam has been completed and is perfect in the eyes of God as told in Surah 5:3 of the Qur’an:

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."

And since the Creator Himself has said that Islam is the perfect religion for all of humankind and He has indeed promised to preserve it till the Last Day when the world comes to an end, then who are the creations to disagree with Him?

 

[jakasaki]

A timely reminder from the Qur’an:

Al-Qur’an, 003.065-069
O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
Lo! ye are those who argue about that whereof ye have some knowledge: Why then argue ye concerning that whereof ye have no knowledge? Allah knoweth. Ye know not.
Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Guardian of the believers.
A party of the People of the Scripture long to make you go astray; and they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not.

~ snip ~ …

I’m still stuck here - things are bothering me with Hambas 3:65 and I want to further go with it…

Chapter 3 - starting from #59

59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

60 (This is) the truth from thy Lord (O Muhammad), so be not thou of those who waver

61 And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him, after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie.

62 Lo! This verily is the true narrative. There is no Allah save Allah, and lo! Allah, He verily is, is the Mighty, the Wise.

63 And if they turn away, then lo! Allah is Aware of (who are) the corrupters.

64 Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).

65 O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?

66 Lo! ye are those who argue about that whereof ye have some knowledge: Why then argue ye concerning that whereof ye have no knowledge? Allah knoweth. Ye know not.

67 Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.

68 Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, **and this Prophet **and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Guardian of the believers.

69 A party of the People of the Scripture long to make you go astray; and they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not.

70 O People of the Scripture! Why disbelieve ye in the revelations of Allah, when ye (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)?

Tafsir:

This discourse is particularly addressed to the Christians and invites them to accept Islam. It clears Jesus and his mother not only from the stigma maliciously set upon them by the Jews, but also refutes the erroneous Christian creed of the Divinity of Jesus which had been formulated because of his miraculous birth.

[65] O people. of the Book, why do you argue with us about Abraham (as to whether he was a Jew or a Christian? You know that) the Torah and the Gospel were sent down long after him. Why do you not, then, understand even this? You have had enough arguments.

[66-68] You have had enough arguments about things of which you had some knowledge: why should you now argue about that also of which you know nothing at all? Allah knows, but you know nothing.

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a Muslim, sound in the Faith, and he was not of those who set up partners with Allah. Surely only those people who follow Abraham are entitled to claim a relationship with Him.

Now this Prophet and the Believers are better entitled to this relationship: Allah is the Protector of only those who are Believers.

End of Tafsir…

OK, all of this is clear to me. mohamad claimed that he was of Abrahams/Ismael’s ancestry.

So it makes sence when mohamad wrote the koran verses he had to align himself with Abraham stating that he was a muslim and “(Abraham) didn’t have partners with allah” - meaning forget the trinity part where Jesus comes in.

Also it states that those who follow Abraham are entitiled to this relationship with allah and mohamad and allah will only protect those who follow mohamad/allah & Abraham…

I hope I’m making sense… it’s all hog-wash!

Forget the Trinity
Abraham was a muslim
allah will only protect you if you believe in mohamad

No wonder all of the muslims have the same answer.

 

[algebra]

Actually, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) followed the religion of Prophet Abraham (pbuh).

Actually they did not.

because the religion that the prophet Mohammed started says

You must believe in one God, Allah
You must believe that Mohammed is His prophet.

However Abraham believed in the supremacy of 1 God, at no point did he or any of his followers believe that he (abraham) was the mouthpeace of God.

The same is true for every jewish prophet.

For us to believe that they followed the same religion, you would have to establish that they had a relationship with their followers akin to the relationship of the jewish patriarchs with the jews.

So to summarise this - you are right there have always been true submitters.

However Mohammed could not be counted amongst them if he rendered his words equivalent to those of Gods.

 

[kingJesus]

You can’t say you are submitting yourself to God if you are denying his Messengers and his Scriptures.

How can you judge him/her?
Denying whose messenger and scriptures? Muhammad?
We all submit to the will of God, Christian or muslim, Doesn’t make me a muslim and doesnt make you a christian!
God is the power and love, we have been submitting to him since Abraham, yet you say that Abraham was Muslim, seems we are all muslim in your words yet we dont believe in a pervert and child molester!
Muhammad stole parts of the bible and made his own.
He frothed in the the mouth when he saw "Gabriel " Jesus healed a man frothing at the mouth , he was possessed! That means Muhammad saw the devil not Gabriel ,In return it made him possessed!

 

[dolphinlove]

Yup, quran is devil inspired…

 

[dzheremi]

Well, this thread has certainly taken some interesting turns since I left it this morning!

A few points:

Now we’re getting somewhere. Correct! I don’t believe that the flawed nature of humanity would ever be synonymous with the divine nature of God.

None of us believe that the incarceration makes the human SYNONYMOUS with the divine. We’re not Mormons. We don’t believe that we can become Gods or that Jesus became God. Jesus was already God. That’s what “incarnation” means: GOD became man, not the other way around.

No islam is an arabic word, a language that did not exist at that time.

I’m not sure what period Abraham is taken to have existed during, but Arabic has been attested to since about the 5th century BC. It would not have been the language of anywhere in the Near East at that though, as Aramaic was the language of the area starting around the 7th century BC. The Aramaic word for “submission” was most likely similar, but the closest thing I could find without having access to an ink-and-paper Aramaic dictionary at the moment was nṭrʾ, which is more like ‘observance’ (‘submission’ is a secondary definition), obviously from a different root.

Anyway, as to the specifics of the thread at hand…I have read and re-read Elwill’s definition of Islam in post #2 that all the other Muslims who have posted are concurring with. It strikes me as being a bit strange. It says that Abraham and Jesus were not founders of the religions that were named after them when neither religions that either were principally associated with are named after them to begin with: Abraham’s name was not “Jew” (or “Yehud”) and “Christ” (or “Khristos” > Hb. “Mashiah”) is a title, not a name. And if they were reiterating the faith that came before them, then why was Jesus charged with not upholding the laws that the Jews of the time were following, re: the Sabbath, the clean and unclean foods, etc.? Unless you also believe that the laws given to Moses by God were not what the Jews said they were, then you must agree that there was conflict between the “prophet” Jesus and Moses, which can’t exist if there is the sort of unbroken line from Abraham to Mohammad that you want us to believe that there was. In my experience here, it seems unlikely that any Muslim would deny the OT laws, since they love so much to chastise us Christians for our precieved lack of fidelity to them, as though they themselves are of the Sanhedrin, and/or as if it is any of their business.

If, on the other hand, we accept the Muslim position that all the prophets taught Islam, and that Jesus was one of those prophets, then this preserves Islam’s continuity with the past but at great cost to the historicity of its own narrative. If the prophet Jesus preaches the same message that is brought to Abraham, then there is no conflict with the Sanhedrin, and no impetus for the crucifixion. If there is no crucifixion then what is to be made of someone “appearing” as Jesus but not actually being Jesus, as the Qur’an says (something about God making it appear as though Jesus was crucified, when it was really someone else…I don’t know; someone else can look it up!)? If there is no crucifixion, then Jesus (prophet, or Son of God…whatever you take Him to be!) is not even “appearing” on the cross, as there is no crime that He is charged with. Why would God make someone who looks like Jesus appear to be on the cross, if Jesus was not meant to have been on the cross? What would God have saved Jesus from, as Muslims say God did? If there is no crime, because He is not preaching “blasphemy” according to the Jewish leaders of the time, then why does any of this happen?

Does the Qur’an offer some other reason for the prophet Jesus’ attempted/simulated crucifixion, or was Allah just trying out a new magic routine?

Something is rotten in Mecca…

 

[planten]

** Please understand that Arabic is the mother of all languages. It is the oldest language. Note only the words Cat and Earth used in English. They are derived from Arabic words. French, German and other languages can be traced back to Arabic. The practice of dropping of the last letter in French language is taken from the Arabic. That much for languges.

Now about Islam and Muslims. Islam means peace and Muslim means the one who submits and surrenders his/her will to the Will of God. Now if the Christians and Jews think that they also surrender their wishes to the Will of God then they are Muslims.

The Quran is telling us that all the prophets / messengers of God were Muslims. So much so good. Muslim is not a bad word. We Muslims are elevating Abraham and Moses and Jesus and some saints and common christians to a higher better rank. But it appears that they do not like that.

I quote the good words of a great Poet philosopher of Germany (Johann Wolfgang Goethe) who said in his poetry: (Translation here):

It is no use (It is silly) praising oneself with (from) his own mouth.
If Islam means submission to God then
We all live and die as Muslims.

We note the word Shalom being used by the Jews. Jesus also greeted his disciples with the similar word “Peace” when he entered upon them at Galilee after the Crucifixion. As he entered upon them, he said “Salaam.”

Islam doe snot belong to Arabs or Africans.It is a general name, universal name without any racial element.

According to Quran teachings, it is necessary to first believe that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger. Then one has to believe in all the revealed books of God and all the angels…
Then a person becomes a believer (Momin). After that he /she has to pray five times a day and pay Zakaat and fast during Ramadhan and be ready for Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah once in life time), And do other good things and be very gentle, peaceful person. Then we will be on our way to becoming a Muslims in word and deed.

**

 

[dzheremi]

** Please understand that Arabic is the mother of all languages. It is the oldest language. Note only the words Cat and Earth used in English. They are derived from Arabic words. French, German and other languages can be traced back to Arabic. The dropping of the last letter in French language is taken from the Arabic. That much for languges.**

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

…

Excuse me.

Planten, I am a Linguist! What on earth makes you think that you can make such claims, ESPECIALLY to someone who studies language for a living? Firstly, NO, Arabic is not the oldest language, nor the mother of all other languages. That is just plain false. I have never met anyone who has claimed such a thing, Arab or Muslim or otherwise. It is DEMONSTRATABLY false with basically no research needed. Please see this page for an answer written by a linguist. I agree with the opinion expressed therein: there is no way to definitively know what the “first” language was. In another source that I quoted in the reply that is above you, the date given for the first inscriptions in Arabic is c.5th century BC. This figure is from the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics (Oxford Univ. Press, 1997) by P.H. Matthews (yes, I do actually look things up in reliable books before I post them; you should try it sometime!). In this same dictionary, on the same page as the entry for Arabic, under the entry for Aramaic, we see that Aramaic is attested to from the 10th century BC onwards. Hopefully this closes the issue for you, but if it doesn’t I can provide other resources that address the earliest attested language, Akkadian, which is also definitely older than Arabic.

Secondly, NO, German, French, etc. cannot be “traced back” to Arabic. Any particular cognates that you can come up with do not establish a genetic relationship between unrelated languages. If that were the case, then Spanish would be genetically related to Arabic, as there are many, many words in it that are ultimately derived from Arabic or from Persian via Arabic (~20%). But this is not the case. Spanish, French, and German are all Indo-European languages, related to each other (though Spanish and French are Romance languages,while German is Germanic) but not to Arabic, which is Afro-Asiatic (the name for the family of languages that includes the Semitic languages like Arabic, Amharic, Tigrinya, Maltese, etc.)

Now about Islam and Muslims. Islam means peace and Muslim means the one who submits and surrenders his/her will to the Will of God. Now if the Christians and Jews think that they also surrender their wishes to the Will of God then they are Muslims.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

I take the Day of Judgment very seriously.

You should, you denied Gods begotten Son and accepted Mohammeds false teachings.

funny how you didn´t answer my PAST posts about the Koran which you even asked for. I gave you the link to the questions and you STILL haven`t answered them. You´re so afraid of the Truth its clear like broad day light. If you believe the Koran is the revealed word of God then why couldn´t you answer the questions I asked you, huh? If the Koran is the truth, us Catholics wouldn´t even dare to post questions like this on the forums. You guys are hiding behind bushes and hiding your faces when you pray because you fear God with all of your souls. If I denied Jesus Christ who sacrificed His Flesh for me, I would do. obviously.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Truly, it is I who submit in His way, and you in yours.

mohammed is not God.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Did Abraham submit to Jesus?

I already answered this question on another post during the time of Easter, You didn´t reply and now your asking the same question again. Typicial Muslim tactic: Ignore Truth.

 

[dolphinlove]

** Please understand that Arabic is the mother of all languages. It is the oldest language. Note only the words Cat and Earth used in English. They are derived from Arabic words. French, German and other languages can be traced back to Arabic. The practice of dropping of the last letter in French language is taken from the Arabic. That much for languges.

Now about Islam and Muslims. Islam means peace and Muslim means the one who submits and surrenders his/her will to the Will of God. Now if the Christians and Jews think that they also surrender their wishes to the Will of God then they are Muslims.

The Quran is telling us that all the prophets / messengers of God were Muslims. So much so good. Muslim is not a bad word. We Muslims are elevating Abraham and Moses and Jesus and some saints and common christians to a higher better rank. But it appears that they do not like that.

I quote the good words of a great Poet philosopher of Germany (Johann Wolfgang Goethe) who said in his poetry: (Translation here):

It is no use (It is silly) praising oneself with (from) his own mouth.
If Islam means submission to God then
We all live and die as Muslims.

We note the word Shalom being used by the Jews. Jesus also greeted his disciples with the similar word “Peace” when he entered upon them at Galilee after the Crucifixion. As he entered upon them, he said “Salaam.”

Islam doe snot belong to Arabs or Africans.It is a general name, universal name without any racial element.

According to Quran teachings, it is necessary to first believe that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger. Then one has to believe in all the revealed books of God and all the angels…
Then a person becomes a believer (Momin). After that he /she has to pray five times a day and pay Zakaat and fast during Ramadhan and be ready for Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah once in life time), And do other good things and be very gentle, peaceful person. Then we will be on our way to becoming a Muslims in word and deed.

**

Honestly, i dont know whether to laugh or cry, but currently im doing both, laughing so hard that im crying with laughter…
The only advice i can give you is this, do some research before you babble.

 

[kingJesus]

** Please understand that Arabic is the mother of all languages. It is the oldest language. Note only the words Cat and Earth used in English. They are derived from Arabic words. French, German and other languages can be traced back to Arabic. The practice of dropping of the last letter in French language is taken from the Arabic. That much for languges.

Now about Islam and Muslims. Islam means peace and Muslim means the one who submits and surrenders his/her will to the Will of God. Now if the Christians and Jews think that they also surrender their wishes to the Will of God then they are Muslims.

The Quran is telling us that all the prophets / messengers of God were Muslims. So much so good. Muslim is not a bad word. We Muslims are elevating Abraham and Moses and Jesus and some saints and common christians to a higher better rank. But it appears that they do not like that.

I quote the good words of a great Poet philosopher of Germany (Johann Wolfgang Goethe) who said in his poetry: (Translation here):

It is no use (It is silly) praising oneself with (from) his own mouth.
If Islam means submission to God then
We all live and die as Muslims.

We note the word Shalom being used by the Jews. Jesus also greeted his disciples with the similar word “Peace” when he entered upon them at Galilee after the Crucifixion. As he entered upon them, he said “Salaam.”

Islam doe snot belong to Arabs or Africans.It is a general name, universal name without any racial element.

According to Quran teachings, it is necessary to first believe that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger. Then one has to believe in all the revealed books of God and all the angels…
Then a person becomes a believer (Momin). After that he /she has to pray five times a day and pay Zakaat and fast during Ramadhan and be ready for Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah once in life time), And do other good things and be very gentle, peaceful person. Then we will be on our way to becoming a Muslims in word and deed.

**

Contradictory statement.
If we are all muslims, islam has been killing itself for 1500 years!
Raping muslims, killing muslims , killing western muslims , converting western MUSLIM dogs!
Ha your one funny muslim!
:bowdown2:

 

[algebra]

a good point, what crime was jesus accused of?