Muslims - Prove that islam existed before muhammad..

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Sister_Amy said:
Oh come on, now. That’s the fatal flaw of Christianity! It only exists after Jesus! If the “true religion” means a person has to worship Jesus then nobody before Jesus could know! Based on your mostly rhetorical question implying that even Prophets didn’t know what would happen!

**It’s your opinion that’s flawed Sister Amy. The worship of God the Father hasn’t changed since God put Adam on the earth. **

That’s why Islam makes so much sense! Why it makes sense that Abraham was following the true religion before God, and so was Moses, and all the other prophets, even if they lived before Jesus.

Calling a true one false won’t save you.

Young lady? I accept Jesus and love Jesus as a messenger of God, as the Messiah. But my worship I reserve for the Lord of the Worlds, Who has no need of sustenance, and Who sustains us, Who created the heavens and the earth, and Who never dies.
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Worshipping God with limitations won’t save you. God requires total surrender. Because YOU believe God cannot die and reserrect Himself doesn’t limit Him.
God is not bound by your understanding. Understand? 🙂
 
happilycatholic said:
Hold on a minute. You are using a compilation of Scripture written by Jews and Christians, codified by catholics, containing what you believe to be false information from a false God and half of which (NT) is lies written by the liars themselves.

I think you’d better get your OWN Islamic source. This one just doesn’t work for you Sister Amy.

Doesn’t make much sense. It’s a Christian source, we know what it says.
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I am using a book that YOU believe in to answer a question asked by a Catholic in this thread. I don’t see a problem with that.

What I believe about the Bible is that it contains revelation from God Almighty. I’m not sure where you heard Muslims believe the Bible is from a false god–that’s totally untrue. That’s not all I believe about it, but I’m not trying to prove something to myself here, I’m trying to prove it to you all. What else would you have me use?
 
happilycatholic said:
No, because I beleive Jesus died for that soul and every soul that accepts Him as Lord and Savior. God has known you and I by name since we were born (and before) and I am not the one denying His Son whom gave His life for you and I.

So when I get to Heaven the first thing I’ll do is receive communion with and the Saints, Angels and God Himself. I will sit at the Table of Plenty with my God.

**Edit: It was meant as levity, but I see I overstepped a boundry. I apologize.

HC
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I really think I didn’t get the joke–or it was a far cry from humor in my view. 🤷
 
Sister_Amy said:
Knowing that Jesus isn’t there to “put in a good word?”
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Jesus is here sweetie. He’s most definitely here watching how you deny Him over and over. How will He know you if you say you don’t know Him?

HC
 
I am not afraid of Islam. I have the truth. Islam is not the truth.

Yes, the Bible is “our” book. Yes, I believe it. But I have proved WHY you cannot use the Bible, yet you refuse to see it. No, Islam is not all over it.

I refuse to call you “sister” because you are not my sister, either familial, or spiritually.

When I look at a mountain, I don’t see Islam. I see a creation of God. The god of Islam is not the one true god. You yourself admitted elsewhere that your god can be toppled by other forces. That is not the One True God.

The reason why the Bible can’t be used is due to your very broad definition of what “Islam” is. That definition is so broad that it encompasses anything. It is a logical fallacy to use a false argument in order to prove a point. I will not repeat it here since I have already said it, several times I believe, and you can go back and review my posts. I have also made an analogy to people who speak Spanish. Go back and read it.

Now. Prove Islam existed prior to Mohammad - with true facts for your argument.

Again. You can’t.
 
Hypatia said:
I think this has probably been explained to you enough that by know you know this is not what we believe. You may believe that. But it is not Islamic. Once again Islam holds that anyone who submits themselves to God is Muslim: Jew, Christian, Buddhist, (3-headed monster from the planet Morg 😛 ), etc. This is why we accept the Jewish prophets (pbut), for instance.
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Yeah, but they are NOT muslim… get it?
muslim and islam were not and i repeat NOT used BEFORE muhammad made them up!
Now back on subject…
Prove islam existed before muhammad…pleeeeaasssseeeee!!!
 
dolphinlove said:
Yeah, but they are NOT muslim… get it?
muslim and islam were not and i repeat NOT used BEFORE muhammad made them up!
Now back on subject…
Prove islam existed before muhammad…pleeeeaasssseeeee!!!
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DolphinLove, I think we have proved that it can’t be done.

Perhaps this particular dead horse shall no longer be beat? 😉
 
dolphinlove said:
yeah, according to the quran which, btw, DOES NOT come from God!
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Now you’re going off-topic, aren’t you?
Yes it does, Being Jewish means your Jewish, being Christian means your Christian, do you understand something as simple as this?
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I understand something far simpler which I will attempt to relate to you:

A Muslim can be any person on the face of the planet who submitted himself to God. It doesn’t matter if he lived before Muhammad, before Jesus, or before Moses. He could still be a Muslim if he chose to accept the prophets he knew about (those who had come) and the scriptures which had been revealed. When the Children of Israel accepted Moses as a prophet, and when they accepted the law which came (hard for them to accept actually), and submitted to it, they were considered “Muslims.”

Because a Muslim is someone who submits himself to God. That’s the simple definition of it. A follower of Jesus who accepts Jesus as a prophet and accepts the teachings of Jesus–that’s a Muslim. Up until the time when Muhammad comes, and that person decides to reject Muhammad.
 
Hypatia said:
I think if we understand anything we understand that God is not bound by the finite: hence the problem with the Christian doctrine of Incarnation!
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Nothing is impossible to God!

Vickie
 
Sister_Amy said:
I really think I didn’t get the joke–or it was a far cry from humor in my view. 🤷
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I was using the standing in line at an exclusive club with no way to get in and then your friends that know the band come along and get you in -metaphor.

I’m sorry. 😊

HC
 
Sister_Amy said:
To spread judaism?

Prophets were commanded to fight in Judaism, though. Weren’t they?
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Yes, but not to spread the faith or to subjugate a population that was not jewish.

This difference is so significant, that one has to conclude that God, as islam portrays Him is not the same as God as judaism protrays Him.

And as it is the patriarchs that are the source of this revelation, we conclude that Mohammed was not receiving revelation from HaShem.
 
happilycatholic said:
Worshipping God with limitations won’t save you. God requires total surrender. Because YOU believe God cannot die and reserrect Himself doesn’t limit Him.
God is not bound by your understanding. Understand? 🙂
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What you said at first is true–the worship of God has not changed since He put Adam on the earth. The Only God. The One and Only God. And Adam never prayed to Jesus, Adam never worshiped Jesus, nor did any other of God’s prophets.

Now, I don’t worship God with limitations. The person who worships a God who died, that person is worshiping a God with limitations.

Also, please be careful about what I said: because I never said God cannot I said God never dies. Not cannot, but does not. God does require total surrender, to Him, just like you said. That’s what Islam is, by the way–submission, surrender. Willingly giving up and obeying God. But it doesn’t make sense to submit to a human being, who has physical needs like food and sleep, when there is the Almighty who has no need of either.

Christians worship Jesus, who they claim died, and was resurrected.

But I worship the Almighty who doesn’t die, and who can resurrect all of mankind even after their bodies have decomposed–who brings the spring from the winter, and who created everyone and everything in the first place! That is Who I worship.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Now you’re going off-topic, aren’t you?

I understand something far simpler which I will attempt to relate to you:

A Muslim can be any person on the face of the planet who submitted himself to God. It doesn’t matter if he lived before Muhammad, before Jesus, or before Moses. He could still be a Muslim if he chose to accept the prophets he knew about (those who had come) and the scriptures which had been revealed. When the Children of Israel accepted Moses as a prophet, and when they accepted the law which came (hard for them to accept actually), and submitted to it, they were considered “Muslims.”

Because a Muslim is someone who submits himself to God. That’s the simple definition of it. A follower of Jesus who accepts Jesus as a prophet and accepts the teachings of Jesus–that’s a Muslim. Up until the time when Muhammad comes, and that person decides to reject Muhammad.
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Ive got a newsflash for you, God himself knows im NOT a muslim.
He knows i worship him, and him alone and his scriptures.

Why does the words islam and muslim not exist before muhammad if you and cohorts think it did?
What you have been programmed to believe is something not only i, but my other brothers and sisters on this forum do NOT believe. We are not muslims, we are Catholics, yet we believe in the one true God, you cant be a dog and a cat too! Meaning both are animals, but are 2 different animals, we are Catholics, we cant also be another religion as well! Your explanation is full of errors, and its totally irrational!
 
Sister_Amy said:
I am using a book that YOU believe in to answer a question asked by a Catholic in this thread. I don’t see a problem with that.

**I have no problem with that, it’s your Islamic interpretation of a Christian source I have a problem with. **

What I believe about the Bible is that it contains revelation from God Almighty. I’m not sure where you heard Muslims believe the Bible is from a false god–that’s totally untrue. **No it’s not, you don’t believe Jesus is God right? Well, Jesus claimed to be God so to you he must be a false God. You also have used the argument that Jesus never claimed to be God, it was his Apostles that said He was God. Well, that would make them liars. You also said that Jesus was not crucified NOR reserrected. That would make the Gospels lies written by the people telling those lies. **

That’s not all I believe about it, but I’m not trying to prove something to myself here, I’m trying to prove it to you all. What else would you have me use?
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To be honest, there is nothing you can say to prove to us that Islam is the religion of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit so give up on that one. Not happening.
HC
 
Sister_Amy said:
Up until the time when Muhammad comes, and that person decides to reject Muhammad.
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But no one who is born again could ever accept Mohammed as a prophet. Not when the Truth of the Holy Spirit resides in you.
 
happilycatholic said:
Jesus is here sweetie. He’s most definitely here watching how you deny Him over and over. How will He know you if you say you don’t know Him?

HC
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I was looking for the verse where Jesus is asked about people worshiping him and he totally rejects all the worship aimed at him.

But I found this one instead, which was so much more powerful:

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
 
Sister_Amy said:
What you said at first is true–the worship of God has not changed since He put Adam on the earth. The Only God. The One and Only God. And Adam never prayed to Jesus, Adam never worshiped Jesus, nor did any other of God’s prophets.
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They did, however we believe in continuing revelation.

ie what is known to Noah was less than Abraham, was less than Moses, was less than Ezekial…

If as you say that you have always worshipped God, then the quran should have been revealed to start with, and that is it.

The laws should have been the same and that is it.

But this is not the case, hence they worshipped The Son without knowing Him.
 
Booklover said:
Nothing is impossible to God!

Vickie
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I think the classic example is “creating a rock that God can’t lift” (Anselm of Canterbury amongst other Christian authors, for instance). “Death” pretty much falls in the same category.

They are just contradictions because they both treat God as if God were limited (either actually or potentially).
 
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