Muslims - Prove that islam existed before muhammad..

[dolphinlove]

So, let me get this straight…They didn’t live their lives in submission to God?

CATHOLICS submit themselves to God
JEWS submit themselves to God.
This does not make us muslims!!!

It would be as silly as me saying if you submit yourself, then you must be a Catholic…

If you claim we are ‘supposedly’ muslim by submission, then why have millions in the past been killed for not converting to islam if, according to you, they already are?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, the Bible is “our” book. Yes, I believe it. But I have proved WHY you cannot use the Bible, yet you refuse to see it. No, Islam is not all over it.

I’m still not seeing how you proved that.

I refuse to call you “sister” because you are not my sister, either familial, or spiritually.

So?

When I look at a mountain, I don’t see Islam. I see a creation of God. The god of Islam is not the one true god. You yourself admitted elsewhere that your god can be toppled by other forces. That is not the One True God.

The mountain, first of all, is a creation of God, and it stands in submission to God. Islam. Secondly, I never said that any force can “topple” God Almighty. NEVER. Go back and read my post, man, because you have completely misunderstood.

The reason why the Bible can’t be used is due to your very broad definition of what “Islam” is. That definition is so broad that it encompasses anything. It is a logical fallacy to use a false argument in order to prove a point. I will not repeat it here since I have already said it, several times I believe, and you can go back and review my posts. I have also made an analogy to people who speak Spanish. Go back and read it.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, you mean that the Bible can’t prove Islam because it proves Islam?

Now. Prove Islam existed prior to Mohammad - with true facts for your argument.

Again. You can’t.

It’s like proving to you that the sun is out while you’ve got your eyes closed. You say it’s not out, I say it’s out. All you gotta do is open your eyes but you don’t wanna be wrong, I guess.

Islam existed prior to Muhammad, and it was the way of life of every single prophet and messenger he sent. It’s a way of life characterized by submission to God.

If you want to declare that nobody ever submitted to God before Muhammad, then I really think you should get back to work because this conversation is clearly out of your league.

 

[Sister_Amy]

They did, however we believe in continuing revelation.

ie what is known to Noah was less than Abraham, was less than Moses, was less than Ezekial…

If as you say that you have always worshipped God, then the quran should have been revealed to start with, and that is it.

The laws should have been the same and that is it.

But this is not the case, hence they worshipped The Son without knowing Him.

It’s an interesting point, and it occurred to me while I was writing. You’re probably the only person capable of picking up on it, because the Christians here will be debating in their mind the matter of how could someone who lived before Jesus ever “accept him as a savior” and whatever.

So I’ll answer you differently. The law did change, but no Muslim, no prophet, ever worshiped Jesus. Obeyed him and loved him and respected him, never worshiped.

Islam is called a “deen” in the sense that it’s a way of life, and the “deen” of the prophets was the same–Islam. However, they had a different law, a different Shari’ah. And you’re confusing the words deen and Shari’ah. What we are discussing in this thread is exclusively “deen.”

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, but not to spread the faith or to subjugate a population that was not jewish.

This difference is so significant, that one has to conclude that God, as islam portrays Him is not the same as God as judaism protrays Him.

And as it is the patriarchs that are the source of this revelation, we conclude that Mohammed was not receiving revelation from HaShem.

It’s actually not a significant distinction, especially if you consider the context of Muslims fighting. They weren’t fighting to “spread Islam” until the very end, and even at the end it wasn’t to force people to accept Islam but to prevent them from oppressing Muslims. Fighting for freedom of religion. Jews wouldn’t have needed to do that since their prophets were only sent to Jews (Muhammad was sent to all of mankind.) Moreover, Jews were supposed to be living with Jews rather than being oppressed in other countries. Islam is different in that way, in that it’s universal, for everyone.

The way God commands the Jews to fight and the Muslims to fight is so so so similar, with the sole exception being that the Muslims are to show more mercy.

 

[GodIsGracious]

I’m still not seeing how you proved that.

So?

The mountain, first of all, is a creation of God, and it stands in submission to God. Islam. Secondly, I never said that any force can “topple” God Almighty. NEVER. Go back and read my post, man, because you have completely misunderstood.

You are correct, I did misunderstand. I did, infact, go back and I realize I read that wrong.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, you mean that the Bible can’t prove Islam because it proves Islam?

No. I say the Bible cannot prove Islam not because it proves Islam. It is because of your definition of Islam. To repeat, your definition of Islam and saying that Abraham is Muslim is like saying that because Mexicans, Spaniards, and Cubans all speak Spanish that they’re one and they same. They’re not. Maybe at the level of Human Being, sure, but not culture.

You missed that. Again. Go back and reread.

It’s like proving to you that the sun is out while you’ve got your eyes closed. You say it’s not out, I say it’s out. All you gotta do is open your eyes but you don’t wanna be wrong, I guess.

I can admit to being wrong. However, were you to do so, you’d be an Infidel.

Secondly, I propose that it is YOU with the closed eyes, not me.

Islam existed prior to Muhammad, and it was the way of life of every single prophet and messenger he sent. It’s a way of life characterized by submission to God.

Too simplistic of a definition. It’s like saying we’re all human beings.

If you want to declare that nobody ever submitted to God before Muhammad, then I really think you should get back to work because this conversation is clearly out of your league.

I never declared that.

Secondly, ad hominem attack. Perhaps, then, you should go back to reading The Bible.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ive got a newsflash for you, God himself knows im NOT a muslim.
He knows i worship him, and him alone and his scriptures.

Why does the words islam and muslim not exist before muhammad if you and cohorts think it did?
What you have been programmed to believe is something not only i, but my other brothers and sisters on this forum do NOT believe. We are not muslims, we are Catholics, yet we believe in the one true God, you cant be a dog and a cat too! Meaning both are animals, but are 2 different animals, we are Catholics, we cant also be another religion as well! Your explanation is full of errors, and its totally irrational!

It’s sad that after 7 pages you still don’t know what a Muslim is, and that in fact you completely changed your line of questioning.

Islam is an Arabic word, so is Salaam, and so is Muslim.

There is a Hebrew equivalent to Salaam, do you know what it is?

 

[Sister_Amy]

CATHOLICS submit themselves to God
JEWS submit themselves to God.
This does not make us muslims!!!

It would be as silly as me saying if you submit yourself, then you must be a Catholic…

If you claim we are ‘supposedly’ muslim by submission, then why have millions in the past been killed for not converting to islam if, according to you, they already are?

In order to submit to God you have to believe in God and believe in his prophets. You don’t believe in his prophets (or his scriptures) which is why you can’t be a Muslim.

I’ve said this before.

 

[dolphinlove]

It’s sad that after 7 pages you still don’t know what a Muslim is, and that in fact you completely changed your line of questioning.

Islam is an Arabic word, so is Salaam, and so is Muslim.

There is a Hebrew equivalent to Salaam, do you know what it is?

No, what is sad is you dont understand what we believe, your religion tells you one thing, we believe another. I believe i am NOT muslim. But you cant understand something as simple as that.
Now, back to the topic, prove islam existed before muhammad

 

[Hypatia]

CATHOLICS submit themselves to God
JEWS submit themselves to God.
This does not make us muslims!!!

It would be as silly as me saying if you submit yourself, then you must be a Catholic…

If you claim we are ‘supposedly’ muslim by submission, then why have millions in the past been killed for not converting to islam if, according to you, they already are?

I didn’t claim you were Muslim. I claimed that if you submit to God, you are Muslim. You are the one who insisted that you do submit to God. This claim on the part of Catholics is questionable for reasons that both SisterAmy and I have already mentioned, but God knows your heart.

With Abraham (pbuh) though, I feel on safer ground, and we clearly identify with the faith of Abraham.

As for anyone who was killed for the sole reason of not converting to Islam, or because they were not Muslim, this would obviously be wrong in any case. But you also knew that already.

 

[dolphinlove]

In order to submit to God you have to believe in God and believe in his prophets. You don’t believe in his prophets (or his scriptures) which is why you can’t be a Muslim.

I’ve said this before.

And i said i do believe in God and his REAL prophets, which makes me a Catholic, NOT a muslim.
Now, prove that islam existed before muhammad

 

[Booklover]

In order to submit to God you have to believe in God and believe in his prophets. You don’t believe in his prophets (or his scriptures) which is why you can’t be a Muslim.

I’ve said this before.

You submit to God in your way, and we’ll submit to Him in His.

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

You are correct, I did misunderstand. I did, infact, go back and I realize I read that wrong.

Thanks.

No. I say the Bible cannot prove Islam not because it proves Islam. It is because of your definition of Islam. To repeat, your definition of Islam and saying that Abraham is Muslim is like saying that because Mexicans, Spaniards, and Cubans all speak Spanish that they’re one and they same. They’re not. Maybe at the level of Human Being, sure, but not culture.

Let me apologize, then, since I must’ve missed this analogy the first time you said it. Sorry.

I can admit to being wrong. However, were you to do so, you’d be an Infidel.

I’m wrong quite often. But on the matter of Islam existing before Muhammad, I am correct. And “infidel” is not a word in my lexicon, as it is historically a word to describe people who do not accept Christianity.

Secondly, I propose that it is YOU with the closed eyes, not me.

I figured you would.

A Muslim is someone who believes in God and submits/surrenders himself to God, and obeys God. Islam is doing that, a Muslim is someone who does it.

Regardless of when they lived.

Too simplistic of a definition. It’s like saying we’re all human beings.

We are all human beings. But we aren’t all Muslims.

Secondly, ad hominem attack. Perhaps, then, you should go back to reading The Bible.

I’d have to be reading it in the first place.

 

[Sister_Amy]

No, what is sad is you dont understand what we believe, your religion tells you one thing, we believe another. I believe i am NOT muslim. But you cant understand something as simple as that.
Now, back to the topic, prove islam existed before muhammad

I understand quite well. I don’t believe you’re a Muslim either.

So let’s review what the definition of a Muslim is. Because in order to prove that Islam existed before Muhammad, we have to know what Islam is in the first place!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

What you said at first is true–the worship of God has not changed since He put Adam on the earth. The Only God. The One and Only God. And Adam never prayed to Jesus, Adam never worshiped Jesus, nor did any other of God’s prophets.

Now, I don’t worship God with limitations. The person who worships a God who died, that person is worshiping a God with limitations.

Also, please be careful about what I said: because I never said God cannot I said God never dies. Not cannot, but does not. God does require total surrender, to Him, just like you said. That’s what Islam is, by the way–submission, surrender. Willingly giving up and obeying God. But it doesn’t make sense to submit to a human being, who has physical needs like food and sleep, when there is the Almighty who has no need of either.

**Herein is where the problem lies. You don’t believe that God can/would make Himself human. Christians do. So you believe that Jesus is a false God. I cannot conceive of Islam because of that. **

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**Islam knows no God, but the one it created through Muhammad. Christians know God as He is in Heaven and as He is revealed through Christ. **

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**We don’t follow any prophet that is not mentioned in the Bible. We do not follow a prophet that is self-proclaimed from scripture written by himself. **

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**I do not fault you for doing so because that would be judgement. Not my job. So you have your Islam created and defined by Muhammad. I have Christianity created by God Himself and sealed by His Son with His own blood and all the history and His Church to back me up. **

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**You go with yours, I’ll go with mine. **

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Christians worship Jesus, who they claim died, and was resurrected.

Again, you are calling Jesus a false God. Tisk, tisk, tisk.

“… who can resurrect all of mankind …”

Yes, and thank God you have Christ to back up that belief!

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Halleluah!

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HC

 

[Sister_Amy]

You submit to God in your way, and we’ll submit to Him in His.

Vickie

Truly, it is I who submit in His way, and you in yours.

 

[dolphinlove]

I didn’t claim you were Muslim. I claimed that if you submit to God, you are Muslim. You are the one who insisted that you do submit to God. This claim on the part of Catholics is questionable for reasons that both SisterAmy and I have already mentioned, but God knows your heart.

Yet, i do submit to God, i believe in his Son, and what his Son taught. But yet, i am a Catholic, not a muslim. As i said, i cannot be 2 things at once.

With Abraham (pbuh) though, I feel on safer ground, and we clearly identify with the faith of Abraham.

As for anyone who was killed for the sole reason of not converting to Islam, or because they were not Muslim, this would obviously be wrong in any case. But you also knew that already.

Summary: So according to you, because Jews/Christians submit themselves to God, they are muslim, therefore they shouldnt be killed because they are muslim…
But, also according to you, because they are Jews/Christians and they believe in the ONE God, hence been Jew/Christian, for some reason or another, you claim they are killed because they are not muslim, yet they submit to the one God.
I get the feeling this logic is VERY flawed…

 

[dolphinlove]

Muslim…
Prove that islam existed before muhammad, whats so hard about that…
about 70% of this thread is attributed to other subjects your changing too!!

 

[Hypatia]

Yet, i do submit to God, i believe in his Son, and what his Son taught. But yet, i am a Catholic, not a muslim. As i said, i cannot be 2 things at once.

From the Muslim standpoint you just answered the question. You say you worship something other than God. You do not submit (i.e., you are not Muslim). End of story.

Summary: So according to you, because Jews/Christians submit themselves to God, they are muslim, therefore they shouldnt be killed because they are muslim…
But, also according to you, because they are Jews/Christians and they believe in the ONE God, hence been Jew/Christian, for some reason or another, you claim they are killed because they are not muslim, yet they submit to the one God.
I get the feeling this logic is VERY flawed…

I think the only thing I said there at the end was that killing anyone for not being Muslim is wrong.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Herein is where the problem lies. You don’t believe that God can/would make Himself human. Christians do.

Now we’re getting somewhere. Correct! I don’t believe that the flawed nature of humanity would ever be synonymous with the divine nature of God.

So you believe that Jesus is a false God. I cannot conceive of Islam because of that.

Actually I believe that Jesus is not a god at all.

Islam knows no God, but the one it created through Muhammad. Christians know God as He is in Heaven and as He is revealed through Christ.

I would say that Islam knows God as taught by Jesus, taught by Muhammad, taught by all the prophets and messengers, and that Christians partially know God but there is some falsehood in their beliefs.

We don’t follow any prophet that is not mentioned in the Bible. We do not follow a prophet that is self-proclaimed from scripture written by himself.

Then I guess you’d better hope the Bible is really from God since that’s all you’re basing your faith on.

I do not fault you for doing so because that would be judgement. Not my job. So you have your Islam created and defined by Muhammad. I have Christianity created by God Himself and sealed by His Son with His own blood and all the history and His Church to back me up.

It’s so amazing to think that one man in the middle of the desert could “create” and “define” a faith that today accounts for the beliefs of at least one in five people.

Christians worship Jesus, who they claim died, and was resurrected.

Again, you are calling Jesus a false God. Tisk, tisk, tisk.

Not one of those three statements is false. Christians worship Jesus, yes? They say he died, yes? And they say he was resurrected, yes?

“… who can resurrect all of mankind …”
Yes, and thank God you have Christ to back up that belief!

Really? Are you under the impression that Jesus is the only person to ever have been resurrected (according to your belief?)

 

[Sister_Amy]

Muslim…
Prove that islam existed before muhammad, whats so hard about that…
about 70% of this thread is attributed to other subjects your changing too!!

What’s so hard is that nobody seems to know what Islam is in the first place!