Muslims, who is Harun?

[inJESUS]

2- mary teh motehr of Jesus is from the people of israel and from a noble and religious family. She was addressed as the sister of Aron by the jews in order to show the strong variance between her sin ( as presumed by the jews of that times that she did sinned and thus had jesus) and the noble lineage that she comes from and the religious nature of her family and ancestors.

 

[inJESUS]

Thats your opinion. Not a fact . .

that is a fact you read in OT, NT and tradition. When Muhammad claims that “sister of” was normally used , you better find us example in non-Islamic literature where Mary is called as such or where “sister of” is used in the context of descendant.

 

[inJESUS]

Ok, you can calm down now.

If you want an example of a sibling being used this way, then take Abdullah bin Salam who after meeting Muhammad he is reported to have said “Auntie, he is really, by God, the brother of Moses and follows his religion”. Clearly he didn’t think Muhammad was actually Moses’ brother, but both Muhammad and Moses were descendents of Abraham…

Abdullah bin Salam does not fall into the category pointed out by Muhammad because Muhammad was not talking about Muslims but about “people of old”, something the Najran Christians surely knew to be wrong and Muhammad’s reply reinforces it and till now you haven’t provided a proof that the idiom was used by people of old.

 

[inJESUS]

Why do you think the Koran refers to Mary as the SISTER of Aaron and the DAUGHTER of Imran simultaneously? You cannot conceal the mistakes of the Koran by isolating one verse from another. If one understands why the authors of the Koran identified Mary as the sister of Aaron in one verse and as the daughter of Imran in two other verses and remembers that Miriam of the Torah was both the DAUGHTER of Amram and the SISTER of Aaron, Muslim scholars will have no leg to stand on to defend their scripture.

 

[meedo]

Even when she was told that there is a 600 years between them, she kept silence, she didn’t withdraw her opinion, anyway, let other Arabic speaking people judge on what they understand of that hadith:

حدثنـي يعقوب، قال: ثنا ابن علـية، عن سعيد بن أبـي صدقة، عن مـحمد بن سيرين، قال: نبئت أن كعبـا قال: إن قوله: { يا أُخْتَ هارُونَ } لـيس بهارون أخي موسى، قال: فقالت له عائشة: كذبت، قال: يا أمّ الـمؤمنـين، إن كان النبـيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قاله فهو أعلـم وأخبر، وإلا فإنـي أجد بـينهما ستّ مئة سنة، قال: فسكتت​

well if she had any objections to his correcting her she would have voiced them like she voiced her objections in the first time right?

Big difference to say that she confirmed somthing and to say that she said and later was corrected.

 

[meedo]

Where in the Koran is it written that Jesus’ mother and Aaron’s sister had the same name???

why does it need to be in the Quran?!

 

[meedo]

that was not the reason given by Muhammad.
the middle east is irrelevant to Muhammad’s reply.

 

[meedo]

that is a fact you read in OT, NT and tradition. When Muhammad claims that “sister of” was normally used , you better find us example in non-Islamic literature where Mary is called as such or where “sister of” is used in the context of descendant.

I do not have to do anything. It is reasonable for the plain mind the explanation that i gave. Bieng it not prevelant in your OT or NT doesnt negate the validdity of any other tradition or culture. And we are not talking about decendants here we are talking about remindíng Mary of the contrast between her religious noble family and the greateness of the name that she bears and the sin that she has commited . It doesnt need a genius to figure out that this was the aim of her detractors.

 

[meedo]

This is silly.

You guys here love to claim that Muhamemd studied thoroughly past religiouns tio invent Islam.´But on the other hadn , when it doesnt suit you, you claim that he made a simple error of saying that the mary mother of Jesus was the sister of moses!!!

Frankly tis doesnt insult islam as much as it insults the people who have this claim.

This is just going nowhere , we are arguying for the sake of arguing with people who have an axe to grind.

 

[inJESUS]

1-Mary the Mother of Jesus ( the one referred to by teh verse) is not mary the sister of Aron( moses brother).

2- mary teh motehr of Jesus is from the people of israel and from a noble and religious family. She was addressed as the sister of Aron by the jews in order to show the strong variance between her sin ( as presumed by the jews of that times that she did sinned and thus had jesus) and the noble lineage that she comes from and the religious nature of her family and ancestors.

 

[inJESUS]

I do not have to do anything.

well Muhammad claimed, and we are asking about a proof for his claim.

It is reasonable for the plain mind the explanation that i gave.

 

[inJESUS]

This is silly.

You guys here love to claim that Muhamemd studied thoroughly past religiouns tio invent Islam.´But on the other hadn , when it doesnt suit you, you claim that he made a simple error of saying that the mary mother of Jesus was the sister of moses!!!
.

any one who claims this must be ignorant for Muhammad surely wasn’t fluent in any but misrepresented and confused too many things…he kept learning though as he added new details to the same historical texts repeated many time in the Quran with new details, for example…surely it was not God who forgot things the first time he revealed a certain historical passage and so needed to repeat the same text with differeing details…

 

[inJESUS]

i must add that not only didn’t the Christians recognize the idiom used by Muhammad, (yet it was normal and known as he claimed), but the Muslim Arab who spoke with them did not know the idiom either and thought it was literal and was puzzled so he had to go and see Muhammad .

 

[Angelos]

Paul ‘corrected’ virtually all of the Mosaic dietary laws that Jesus (pbuh) religiously followed and taught his disciples.

Why don’t Christians have any problem at all in accepting the “divine” origin of Paul’s teachings?

Hamba2han, it is saddening indeed to see that you cannot respond to any thread without eventually going off-topic! That’s a terrible attitude. If you want, go and start a new thread to present your arguments about Paul and the Mosaic Law, but here avoid digression!

 

[Angelos]

**That point by friend hamba is great help. Maryam is not called by sister of Moses. Why? Moses and Haroon were brothers. Why did Quran call Maryam the sister of Aarun?. There is a very big point in it. I am thankful to hamba for this fine news. (I have now noticed it that news is from Sale, the translater and commentator of the Quran. very good of him to write that. May Allah bless him.)

It shows that she was called sister of Aarun due to the nature of her duties in the temple… And the Quran is far ahead of the thinking of the bible people. The language and information of the Quran is much advanced type of info. The language of the Quran is very much top class and speed is fast. Thanks.**

You have not responded to my post yet! How long shall I have to wait for a good response? Why does NOT your Koran call Mary “the sister of Aaron” in Surah 3 ???

The authors of the Koran defined Mary as the sister of Aaron because they heard about the following verse in the Torah:

Exodus 15:20
So Mary the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand: and all the women went forth after her with timbrels and with dances.

Even the Torah did not always refer to Mary as the sister of BOTH Aaron and Moses, but ONLY of Aaron although Mary the daughter of Amram was the biological sister of both Moses and Aaron. Thus, Jesus’ mother is mistakenly said to be the biological sister of Aaron in the Koran, which entails that she is also the biological sister of Moses! The mistake IS still there

 

[Angelos]

**
Continued,

Mary said to the angel “How could she have a grown up son when no man had touched her?” And also that “She was not any of the bad type ladies”. That was the time she was still in the temple, and probably years before she left the temple.

The angel replied that it would be like that (The way angel had said before). Angel said “Like that (it will be)” meaning that she will surely have the son. That it was easy for God and that God will make him a sign for the men and (an object) of mercy from God (for men) and that the matter was fully decided by God. It was a matter ordained. ( V. 19:21)

Some time later Mary was handed over to Jospeh the Carpentar as a wife and he took her away to his home. he was the husband of Mary. Then the bible says that Jospeh was informed Mary was pregnant with the holy ghost and that he should not discard her…
Then the birth of Jesus is described in Quran, in some far away land , perhaps during travel, in difficult circumstances. (19:23). She suffered much pain at the birth of Jesus. But she was helped and strengthened by the angels of God at the time of birth and afterwards.

Mary (Maryam) was told to live happily, eat and enjoy and be happy and not to discuss anything with any person. That meant she should not deliver any religious sermon or discuss anything serious with any man. She could talk but not make any speech. (19:27)

Many years passed. Jesus became more than 25 years of age. During that time, according to bible, Jesus had lived for about 12 years in Egypt because there was a danger to his life from the King Herod. God had informed Joseph ( care of an angel in a dream) to take Jesus into Egypt.

Jesus became of age and started his ministry. He went into Jerusalem riding ( a donkey) in company with his mother (19:27). When Jesus started his preaching the Jewish clergy was very much upset and they were trapped and had no way to escape because of their fraudulent practicies. They were highly upset. In such a condition, the senior leaders of the Jews came to Mary to take some help from her against their difficult position in which they were trapped by the teachings of Jesus.

In such a situation, the senior Jews spoke to Mary " O Mary, you have indeed brought a very strange thing (Jesus) to us. (19:27) " O sister of Aaron, Your father was not a bad man and your mother was also not a spoiled woman." (19:28)

Please remember here the mother of Mary who had wished to give up her child in the service of God ( verse 3:35). She was hoping that a son will be born and he will perform good service in the way of God. But it so happened that a daughter was born and she named her Mary. So it proved that the mother of Mary was also a very high class pious person who loved God so much that she offered her offspring in the way of God. God was pleased with her and God produced Jesus out of Mary. So the wish of the mothe rof mary was thus fulfilled.

When the bad behaving senior members of the Jews were in great difficulty due to the preachings of Jesus, they approached Mary the mother to help them. They addressed her in a good and respectable way and said "O sister of Aaron… " In other words they praised her as an important person, a sister of Aaron, a servant of the temple. They said, O Mary, sister of Aaron, you were such a good lady. Your father and mother were also very pious Jews. But look at your son (Jesus). What has caused this problem for all of us. We are in so much trouble due to his preaching…

This has nothing to do with any Aaron being there at the time who was the real brother of Mary. No such thing. Also a great truth on the part of the Quran that it described her very well and pointed her (attached her name) to a very great important person Aaron, a prophet of God.

At that time, Mary did not reply to them or discussed anything with them. She simply referred the seniors to Jesus. That was in accordance with the earlier advice (order) given to Mary after the birth of Jesus not to indulge in any serious talks. (V. 19:26)

They said “How could they discuss things with some one who had been a child in the cradle !!” V. 19:29.**

The Surah 3 is of a later period and therefore has many contradictions with the version of the same story presented in Surah 19, which is of an earlier period. For instance, Surah 19 says nothing about Jesus’ family or her parents’ decision to dedicate her to the Temple.

 

[Angelos]

why does it need to be in the Quran?!

It must be in the Koran, otherwise your argument has no evidence or basis. The fact that Moses’ sister is NOT named Mary in the Koran rebuts your hypothesis about the supposed metaphoric usage aiming to make associations between those two women bearing the same name.

 

[Angelos]

I do not have to do anything. It is reasonable for the plain mind the explanation that i gave. Bieng it not prevelant in your OT or NT doesnt negate the validdity of any other tradition or culture. And we are not talking about decendants here we are talking about remindíng Mary of the contrast between her religious noble family and the greateness of the name that she bears and the sin that she has commited . It doesnt need a genius to figure out that this was the aim of her detractors.

Could you please show us an example from the JEWISH culture to prove that Jews always referred to women as sisters of Aaron when a woman’s chastity was in question or when a woman was accused???

Why the need to call a woman “the sister of Aaron” instead of “the daughter of Aaron” to underline the contrast between her family and her supposed sinful/shameful acts???

Muslims must ask themselves the question why in Surah 19 Mary’s father is NOT named although in Surah 66 and 3 Mary’s father is named Imran. The answer is simple: the Koran teaches that Jesus’ mother Mary is the biological daughter of Imran and the biological sister of Aaron. In Surah 19 the name of Aaron appears and stands for Imran, his biological father. It is by no means a coincidence that the Islamic scripture refer to Aaron as the male representaive of Mary’s biological family. The son always refers to the father whilst the daughter to the mother.

 

[Angelos]

3- This is not a strange custom in the middle east. If you go to Egypt for example you will find the following customs

If your name is Hassan == you can be called == Abu Ali ( meaning the father of ''Ali’’ . it doesnt matter if you dont have a son called Ali , it is just a title )

If your name is Mahmoud == you can be called == Abu Hanafi

It sort of like in America you have an attachement between the names ‘’ William ‘’ and ‘‘Bill’’

The Quran wasnt wrong adbn Muhammed didnt do a mistake . if you want to believe Islam is false or Muhammed did a mistake etc to start with then my explanation is futile .

Any how , what seems to you as a person of western background is wierd isnt the case in the middle east.

calling sombody by the name of a great religious figure is a way to bring his attention to the situation that he is in and how it is in contradiction with the good name of that specific religious figure .

I hope i made things clear . At least for the sincerely searching for truth.

best regards,

Meedo

Strikingly, you are contradicting yourself and debunking your previous allegation. The very example you provided to defend the Koran proves that cultures tend to identify some people as the SONS of some other people for metaphoric association. The case in the Koran is NOT relevant to this cultural use since Mary is identified as the SISTER of Aaron instead of the DAUGHTER of Aaron. This is why the phrase in Surah 19 is an odd statement revealing a confusion and a case of mistaken identity in the Islamic scripture.

 

[planten]

any one who claims this must be ignorant for Muhammad surely wasn’t fluent in any but misrepresented and confused too many things…he kept learning though as he added new details to the same historical texts repeated many time in the Quran with new details, for example…surely it was not God who forgot things the first time he revealed a certain historical passage and so needed to repeat the same text with differeing details…

**This is an accusation of the high order without any concrete proof or example. Please give example of where God failed to tell the right thing…

Muhammad did not learn anything from any one. But we know that Jesus learnt all things from the seniors, step by step and lesson by lesson, he learnt all Jewish religion of his fore fathers.**