Muslims: Why would God make a revelation that is contradictory to the revelation of Jesus?

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I thought Abraham, Isaac, David and the rest were already Muslim back in the OT? It didn’t bring peace then. :hmmm:

MJ
Looking from the perspective of the “meaning” of the word “Muslim” or “Islam” rather than thinking it of a conversion to a religion may assist your process.

If the entire world was submissive to God (which is what Islam means) then there will be peace on earth.

Abraham was submissive to God, but the world was not, so no peace. If the world had 7 billion Abrahams, there would be peace for sure…

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Looking from the perspective of the “meaning” of the word “Muslim” or “Islam” rather than thinking it of a conversion to a religion may assist your process.

If the entire world was submissive to God (which is what Islam means) then there will be peace on earth.

Abraham was submissive to God, but the world was not, so no peace. If the world had 7 billion Abrahams, there would be peace for sure…

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Abraham also pleaded with G-d not to kill all of the inhabitants of Sodom. Further, Abraham did not inform his wife, Sara, of his decision to kill their son. I wonder what may have ensued between them if G-d had not stayed Abraham’s hand, something which the Hebrew Bible does not speak about! No, I think husband and wife arguments will persist.
 
Abraham also pleaded with G-d not to kill all of the inhabitants of Sodom. Further, Abraham did not inform his wife, Sara, of his decision to kill their son. I wonder what may have ensued between them if G-d had not stayed Abraham’s hand, something which the Hebrew Bible does not speak about! No, I think husband and wife arguments will persist.
Abraham liistened to God this time by following Gods command, that is what is integral and criticsl and necessary to know. As opposed to listening to Sarah (who requested him to have a child with the maidservant as an act of desperation!) and thus giving a son for Abraham through that maidsevant. Luckily Abraham came to his senses and went ahead with Gods instruction. The lesson here? Listen to God not man (woman in this case ones wife).

Listen to God, thats submitting to His commands.

MJ
 
Why would God make a revelation that is, in some of the most basic ways, contradictory to the revelation of Jesus?
This doesn’t make any sense, especially considering that Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for us before Islam came about.
Sometimes the answer to the question lies within the question itself. First, there is a natural tendency to assume that the question itself is valid and true. That then defines the only acceptable answers to assume the validity of the question.

Clarification. Approach the subject from another perspective and consider that they are not contradictory. This requires us to examine what we mean by “the Revelation of Jesus”, as well as what is meant by “the Revelation of Muhammad”, ie, the Quran.

The assumption common to both Christians and Muslims is that both Muhammad and Jesus were Revealers of God’s Word. Where the difficulty arises then remains in the field of the accuracy of the recording of the Revelations themselves.

While most Christians assume the authenticity of the Biblical texts, and Muslims assume the authenticity of the verses of the Quran, there remains the reality that the Bible is a collection of “Gospels according to…”, etc, written down several decades after the events.

Likewise, as several “versions” of the Quran were burned by Uthman, leaving only the one that he agreed to, there may be some question as to what those differences were and why they were rejected in favor of what he favored.

So what it comes down to is whether or not “God made a Revelation” that was portrayed with perfect accuracy in either the Bible or the Quran. We can never fully answer how accurate either is, but that may not be the point.

What is important is whether or not the “Essence of the Gospel” is true, and whether or not the “Essence of the Quran” is true, in that the spiritual teachings of God were contained in them sufficiently for anyone who is truly turning to God and seeking the truth.

Then, of course, there are those essential differences of understanding, such as the crucifixion issue, which can be explained quite easily, such as that it was Jesus’ body which was killed, not His Spirit, which existed prior to Abraham, and therefore prior to Jesus (His physical, biological self by which people are accustomed to identifying His Spirit)

Hence, when understood from a different perspective than that which appears on the surface, there are not necessarily "contradictions’ involved, rather it comes down to interpretations, as well as traditional understandings, and positions held by the Institutions which consider themselves to be correct in their assumptions, and those who follow their lead.

. "Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people. By their sanction and authority, every Prophet of God hath drunk from the chalice of sacrifice… "

reference.bahai.org/en/t/bic/SB/sb-12.html

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And what is the essence of the gospel as found in the New testament? It is Christ revealing himself as the incarnate God to the world and the people of Israel, giving us the perfect example and perfect expectation within him as the first fruits of the Resurrection, and his final words of command “Go forth and baptise people of all nations in the name of the Father and the son and the Holy spirit.”

Both Muslims and Bahai deny this essence of the gospel and claim it is either untrue or not needed. Your prophet might claim that the leaders of religion have hindered the people in every age, but what you cannot do is demonstrate that it was the case. Who for instance hindered the gospel in the second century? Who could say to Ignatius of Antioch he did not live out the gospel by dying in Rome for the sake of Christ? Who could say to Iraneaus that he did not display the fury of Christ with money lenders as he did to the Gnostics?

The problem remains, revelation, if Islam or Bahai is true is inconsistent or utterly untrustworthy.
 
And what is the essence of the gospel as found in the New testament? It is Christ revealing himself as the incarnate God to the world and the people of Israel, giving us the perfect example and perfect expectation within him as the first fruits of the Resurrection, and his final words of command “Go forth and baptise people of all nations in the name of the Father and the son and the Holy spirit.”

Both Muslims and Bahai deny this essence of the gospel and claim it is either untrue or not needed.
IgnatianPhilo - This is not correct - We do not deny the Gospels, they are the Word of God as Given by Christ.

What we do say is that Christ had a Covenant with us that He would Return and more Truth would be Revealed. This is written in the Gospels. It is the interpretation of these Gospels as to where we only Differ.

We are saying Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the Fulfillment of that Covenant and thus Their writings must be read to understand the Bible in its entirety.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
And what is the essence of the gospel as found in the New testament? It is Christ revealing himself as the incarnate God to the world and the people of Israel, giving us the perfect example and perfect expectation within him as the first fruits of the Resurrection, and his final words of command “Go forth and baptise people of all nations in the name of the Father and the son and the Holy spirit.”

Both Muslims and Bahai deny this essence of the gospel and claim it is either untrue or not needed. Your prophet might claim that the leaders of religion have hindered the people in every age, but what you cannot do is demonstrate that it was the case. Who for instance hindered the gospel in the second century? Who could say to Ignatius of Antioch he did not live out the gospel by dying in Rome for the sake of Christ? Who could say to Iraneaus that he did not display the fury of Christ with money lenders as he did to the Gnostics?

The problem remains, revelation, if Islam or Bahai is true is inconsistent or utterly untrustworthy.
Ignatian,
. I would submit that the “Essence” of both the Gospel and the Quran is spiritual, as well as that which is found in the Torah, for Moses led the people out of the wilderness of error to the Promised Land of obedience to God’s will, and freedom from enslavement to self and passion.

. Jesus sacrificed His body that people might be freed from the illusions of excessive guilt and set them on a course to enter the Kingdom of God, not of this world, yet promised them as well, “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

. Muhammad destroyed the idols of imaginary gods created by people who had turned away from God and did not know Him, unifying warring tribes of people who could not be reconciled to each other because of limited traditions of false identities.

. The Bab appeared at the end of the Prophetic Cycle to usher in the fulfillment of all prophecy regarding the Promised Day of God referred to in all the sacred Scriptures of the world, the Day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd.

. Baha’u’llah declared Himself to be that Promised One foretold in every religion and unveiled to men’s eyes that which was previously sealed to them, which through countless centuries people had never uncovered the truths contained therein, leaving them to decide whether such things as are contrary to human reasoning, when understood literally, could be interpreted another way, thus solving the mysteries in all the heavenly Books, and proving to people their dependency upon God and His Manifestations, without whom they are left to wander in the fields of vain imaginations and doubt.

. As to those venerable souls martyred for the Cause of God in every age, they are those who have not turned away from their Lord, understood the Spirit behind the words, and have not suffered themselves to be kept back by reason of the veils of glory which have hindered men of position and learning from entering the paradise of His good pleasure.

. "“When We observed carefully, We discovered that Our enemies are, for the most part, the divines… Among the peoples are those who said: He hath repudiated the divines. Say: Yea, by My Lord! I, in very truth, was the One Who abolished the idols!.. O Concourse of divines! Fling away idle fancies and imaginings, and turn, then, towards the Horizon of Certitude.” “We have decreed, O people, that the highest and last end of all learning be the recognition of Him Who is the Object of all knowledge; and yet, behold now ye have allowed your learning to shut you out, as by a veil, from Him.” “Have ye clung unto the promptings of your nature, and cast behind your backs the statutes of God?.. Reflect, and be not of them that have shut themselves out as by a veil from Him, and were of those that are fast asleep.” “O Concourse of divines! Ye shall not henceforth behold yourselves possessed of any power, inasmuch as We have seized it from you.” (Baha’u’llah). (106:1)

The Light Shineth in Darkness (excerpts)
by Udo Schaefer

bahaitext.info/btxt.asp?buk=ls&tgt=103:1+9&wds=xd
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IgnatianPhilo - This is not correct - We do not deny the Gospels, they are the Word of God as Given by Christ.

What we do say is that Christ had a Covenant with us that He would Return and more Truth would be Revealed. This is written in the Gospels. It is the interpretation of these Gospels as to where we only Differ.

We are saying Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the Fulfillment of that Covenant and thus Their writings must be read to understand the Bible in its entirety.

God Bless and Regards Tony
This thread for Muslims to answer and yet none has showed up. And you don’t speak for Muslims do you?

MJ
 
IgnatianPhilo - This is not correct - We do not deny the Gospels, they are the Word of God as Given by Christ.

What we do say is that Christ had a Covenant with us that He would Return and more Truth would be Revealed. This is written in the Gospels. It is the interpretation of these Gospels as to where we only Differ.

We are saying Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the Fulfillment of that Covenant and thus Their writings must be read to understand the Bible in its entirety.

God Bless and Regards Tony
The problem is your reading of the bible is wrong. Who is correct? Us or you? We both cannot be right and i would prefer if the bahai would be open about this and just say we have corrupted our scriptures to mean what we think we mean. There is nothing that needs to be fulfilled in the covenant of Christ by hte presence of another all encapsulating covneant. What was lacking in Christ That you have fulfilled? Bahai have only ever tried to answer this by saying, “we offer a one world government of perfect order and bliss.” That doesn’t convince me however, that is a worldly motive. Christ gave us the example of how to live out the kingdom of heaven on earth and we do not need a one world government.
 
The problem is your reading of the bible is wrong. Who is correct? Us or you? We both cannot be right and i would prefer if the bahai would be open about this and just say we have corrupted our scriptures to mean what we think we mean,
. As to the issue of corruption of the texts, intellectual honesty “demands” that the matter be disclosed in order that this false assumption be dispelled and the truth prevail, unstained by deceitfulness and ill-intention. For the matter to be cleared up from the actual source, paragraphs 88 thru 101 of the Kitab-i-Iqan will “prove” what is the truth of Baha’u’llah’s actual words regarding the matter and serve to expose the falsity being uttered.

94
. "In yet another instance, He saith: “A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so.” This verse, too, doth indicate that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words have been effaced. To the truth of this testify they that are sound of mind…

98
. “We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-3.html
 
The problem is your reading of the bible is wrong. Who is correct? Us or you? We both cannot be right and i would prefer if the bahai would be open about this and just say we have corrupted our scriptures to mean what we think we mean. There is nothing that needs to be fulfilled in the covenant of Christ by hte presence of another all encapsulating covneant. What was lacking in Christ That you have fulfilled? Bahai have only ever tried to answer this by saying, “we offer a one world government of perfect order and bliss.” That doesn’t convince me however, that is a worldly motive. Christ gave us the example of how to live out the kingdom of heaven on earth and we do not need a one world government.
And Jews believe there is nothing that has to be fulfilled in the Covenant given by G-d to Moses. Christians disagree with Jews on this point, just as Mormons, Muslims, and Bahais disagree with Christians, all in their own way. Interpretation of Scripture, whether by authority or individuals, is never-ending.
 
And Jews believe there is nothing that has to be fulfilled in the Covenant given by G-d to Moses. Christians disagree with Jews on this point, just as Mormons, Muslims, and Bahais disagree with Christians, all in their own way. Interpretation of Scripture, whether by authority or individuals, is never-ending.
Which is EXACTLY why one should independently investigate the merits of each Prophet that claims divinity, not on how their Revelation might possibly be interpreted as contradicting previous Revelations, but on the FRUITS of their Revelation.
  1. Do they claim an independent Revelation?
  2. Does the Revelation transform and purify the spiritual lives of men?
  3. Is there sustainability in the religion founded by the Prophet?
  4. Are the teachings a basis by which a civilization bearing wondrous fruits a possible outcome?
  5. Does the Revelation “advance” mankind? If so in what way?
These are some of the questions that need to be asked to ascertain the Truth of any Revelation and it’s Revealer.

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just as Mormons, Muslims, and Bahais disagree with Christians, all in their own way. Interpretation of Scripture, whether by authority or individuals, is never-ending.
Are you lumping Mormons, Muslims and Bahai’s along with the Catholic Church in the same boat? If so, are you really being fair? 😦

MJ
 
Are you lumping Mormons, Muslims and Bahai’s along with the Catholic Church in the same boat? If so, are you really being fair? 😦

MJ
I think he is Martin, and lets be honest, you can lump the Jews in there as well when viewed from the perspective of Indigenous Religions.

Don’t discount Indigenous Spirituality as the first religion which was sufficient to all for hundreds of thousands of years 🙂

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Are you lumping Mormons, Muslims and Bahai’s along with the Catholic Church in the same boat? If so, are you really being fair? 😦

MJ
Just to add some perspective, lets rephrase this in another context:

Are you lumping Negroes, Indians, and Asians along with White People in the same boat? If so, are you really being fair? ;-(

My friends,
. May I suggest a 3 1/2 minute listen to one of the best songs of the sixties called
“Abraham, Martin, and John.” The last verse also includes Bobby. I say this because half of these heroes were Catholic, and that says something good for their Faith.

youtube.com/watch?v=a5hFMy4pTrs
 
Are you lumping Mormons, Muslims and Bahai’s along with the Catholic Church in the same boat? If so, are you really being fair? 😦

MJ
Martin - That is a very good example as to why it is not God that makes the difference 😉 👍

I guess that is why you made the statement, as I would think you can not actually think this! 😊

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Just to add some perspective, lets rephrase this in another context:

Are you lumping Negroes, Indians, and Asians along with White People in the same boat? If so, are you really being fair? ;-(

Jesus also died for all the above. 🙂 :highprayer:

MJ
 
Martin - That is a very good example as to why it is not God that makes the difference 😉 👍

I guess that is why you made the statement, as I would think you can not actually think this! 😊

God Bless and Regards Tony
Im only asking Melzerboy, what he really believes about the Catholic church.

However, this thread still has no single Muslim come here to comment on the OP. As it stands, nothing really has been answered till Muslims put their voice here.

MJ
 
Im only asking Melzerboy, what he really believes about the Catholic church.

However, this thread still has no single Muslim come here to comment on the OP. As it stands, nothing really has been answered till Muslims put their voice here.

MJ
I have a very good feeling that the Muslims themselves have little to no idea on what their celebrated scholars from the 10th century, Abū Hātim al-Rāzi (d. ca. 933) and the even more celebrated Abū Bakr al-Rāzi (d. 925) had to say on the subject of Jesus’ Revelation, and how it aligns perfectly with the Quran

But I will leave it to the Muslims to speak about that 🙂

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I have a very good feeling that the Muslims themselves have little to no idea on what their celebrated scholars from the 10th century, Abū Hātim al-Rāzi (d. ca. 933) and the even more celebrated Abū Bakr al-Rāzi (d. 925) had to say on the subject of Jesus’ Revelation, and how it aligns perfectly with the Quran

But I will leave it to the Muslims to speak about that 🙂

.
That’s sound odd. Muslims may not appreciate this tone.:hmmm:

MJ
 
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