What about the people who DO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING? Back to my example. Has God forgiven the unrepentant mugger? If God HAS NOT forgiven him and I do forgive him,it sure looks to me like I am the better “fellow”.Jesus forgave the ones crucifying Him while they were doing it. They were not repentant. His words were, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Those should also be our words to those who unrepentantly trespass against us.
This makes sense!If someone has offended us by some small offense, but they remain a person of good will toward us, we should forgive them without requiring explicit repentance or an apology. Their continued good will should be sufficient. Similarly, God forgives venial sins the next time the person prays devoutly, even if they have not called each venial sin to mind and asked for forgiveness.
If someone has offended us by some great offense, and they are unrepentant, we should forbear. That means we continue to love them (“love your enemies”), and we pray and hope for their repentance. But we cannot treat them the same as if they were repentant from grave sin. Similarly, God only forgives mortal sin if the person repents with perfect contrition, or imperfection contrition and Confession (or extreme unction).
If someone has offended us by some great offense, and they are truly repentant, we should forgive them. For God forgives all who repent from any sin.
Yes, without counting the cost.I had always assumed that as Christians we are required to forgive those who have injured / offended us even if they do not seek our forgiveness. Recently, however, I heard a Catholic apologist who disagreed. He said we are only required to forgive the repentant - i.e., those who seek our forgiveness. He cited LK 17:3-4: If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, ‘I am sorry,’ you should forgive him.” To me, this passage seems to support the view that we must extend forgiveness to the repentant, but it doesn’t really go so far as to say we can withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant. It was also suggested by the apologist I heard that a requirement that we forgive the unrepentant would ask us to do more even than God, because God does not forgive the unrepentant.
What is the correct Catholic position? Can anyone shed more light on this?
Thanks.
Jesus did say a person who refused to listen to the church should be treated like a pagan or a tax collector.I do not forgive the unrepentant. I think God laid out pretty clear what one must do to be forgiven. And we are told we will be forgiven as we forgive. And since I will be judged by the same standard I have no problem not forgiving the unrepentant. I will not be forgiven if I am not repentant. So of course that is the standard God has set up.
Here is another way of looking at it. God’s forgiveness is there for anyone. Even the unrepentant mugger. God forgives him but because the mugger is unrepentant he doesn’t know God forgives him.What about the people who DO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING? Back to my example. Has God forgiven the unrepentant mugger? If God HAS NOT forgiven him and I do forgive him,it sure looks to me like I am the better “fellow”.
How about this.I am still confused. “God forgives us all our sins when we repent.” but I forgive my attacker even if he is UNREPENTANT. It sound to me like I am not only modeling God’s behavior but going beyond it. Being better than God. “Whether the person who does the wrong feels sorry to YOU is immaterial to your forgiveness.” Is it immaterial to God’s forgiveness? Why should I be sorry for / repent of any of my sins? God will forgive me anyway. Universal salvation (no hell)? I understand that “letting go of the hurt” is important to one’s well being. I just think using the word forgive for that process is wrong.
I’m confused by what you mean about God forgiving the unrepentant. That seems really Calvinist to me…Here is another way of looking at it. God’s forgiveness is there for anyone. Even the unrepentant mugger. God forgives him but because the mugger is unrepentant he doesn’t know God forgives him.
It’s the same for us. We must forgive even those who are not sorry for hurting us. When & if they repent, that forgiveness must be there. So no, I don’t believe one must be repentant to gain our forgiveness. I don’t view forgiveness and repentance as two sides of the same coin. Forgiving is beneficial to our souls, repentance is beneficial to the souls of those who sin.
What I mean is God doesn’t put qualifiers on His capacity to forgive. He just forgives. I see it as a parent with a child who took a cookie. The child may not yet feel repentance for taking the cookie because it was a good cookie but the parent doesn’t tell the child you’ll only be forgiven after you feel sorry for it. Yes the parent wants the child to repent but withholding forgiveness isn’t the way to go about it.I’m confused by what you mean about God forgiving the unrepentant. That seems really Calvinist to me…
Forgiving someone doesn’t mean we have to trust that person. Even if the person is repentant, they may not be trustworthy. Relationships require trust. We are expected to forgive “seventy times seven times”, but we don’t have to be friends with people we don’t (or can’t) trust.This brings to mind sociopaths. People with virtually no conscience who will not hesitate to harm others for his or her gain. How do we deal with people like us? Should we forgive them knowing they will not hesitate to hurt or take advantage of us if they find it advantageous. Are we obligated to keep in contact with them or do we have the right to avoid them as much as possible?
Yeah, that’s why I don’t buy it. God offers forgiveness always, yes, which is why grace is provided. But the divine forgiveness itself is not automatic. God’s forgiveness means justification of the sinner, and justification does not happen without repentance. As real as the teaching on mercy is the teaching on judgement. Because it’s clear to us that God will judge and condemn the unrepentant, it’s clear that these people are not forgiven. So no, I do not believe God automatically forgives the unrepentant.I’m confused by what you mean about God forgiving the unrepentant. That seems really Calvinist to me…
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
Your theology on this is in no way Catholic. It just isn’t. It is not even a biblical view of repentance forgiveness and justice. I do think it is common though among many. But it lacks theology and strait up “logy” as well. Personally I think it as to do with a misunderstanding of our relationship with God. That and Catholics stereotypical aversion to reading the bible. Because you cannot read the old and New Testament all the way through word for word and come away with your cookie analogy. However that probably explains why there are no real confession lines to speak of. I hope your personal examination of conscience does not reflect your stated theology.What I mean is God doesn’t put qualifiers on His capacity to forgive. He just forgives. I see it as a parent with a child who took a cookie. The child may not yet feel repentance for taking the cookie because it was a good cookie but the parent doesn’t tell the child you’ll only be forgiven after you feel sorry for it. Yes the parent wants the child to repent but withholding forgiveness isn’t the way to go about it.
We are called to forgive, to love one another. Forgiving someone does mean we accept their bad behavior or that we must retain a relationship with that person. It means we accept God’s call. There are people in my past I hope I never see again. I’ve forgiven them but I don’t want them in my life.
This isn’t a complicated thing. There are no scenarios God would absolve us of our duty to forgive.
This is perfect.How about this.
Pray that God grants the grace of repentance to the one who harmed you in addition to praying to God for your healing.
You can start with that and only that.
Yes you must forgive a person who is not only unrepentant but even if they tell you they don’t want your forgiveness.I had always assumed that as Christians we are required to forgive those who have injured / offended us even if they do not seek our forgiveness. Recently, however, I heard a Catholic apologist who disagreed. He said we are only required to forgive the repentant - i.e., those who seek our forgiveness. He cited LK 17:3-4: If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, ‘I am sorry,’ you should forgive him.” To me, this passage seems to support the view that we must extend forgiveness to the repentant, but it doesn’t really go so far as to say we can withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant. It was also suggested by the apologist I heard that a requirement that we forgive the unrepentant would ask us to do more even than God, because God does not forgive the unrepentant.
What is the correct Catholic position? Can anyone shed more light on this?
Thanks.
“Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them and tear you to pieces.”Yes you must forgive a person who is not only unrepentant but even if they tell you they don’t want your forgiveness.
Our Father, Who art in heaven,I had always assumed that as Christians we are required to forgive those who have injured / offended us even if they do not seek our forgiveness. Recently, however, I heard a Catholic apologist who disagreed. He said we are only required to forgive the repentant - i.e., those who seek our forgiveness. He cited LK 17:3-4: If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, ‘I am sorry,’ you should forgive him.” To me, this passage seems to support the view that we must extend forgiveness to the repentant, but it doesn’t really go so far as to say we can withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant. It was also suggested by the apologist I heard that a requirement that we forgive the unrepentant would ask us to do more even than God, because God does not forgive the unrepentant.
What is the correct Catholic position? Can anyone shed more light on this?
Thanks.
Or else what? Are you morally punished for not forgiving the unrepentant? Does a victim of abuse have an obligation to forgive an unrepentant abuser? Is there a moral punishment by God for not doing so?Yes you must forgive a person who is not only unrepentant but even if they tell you they don’t want your forgiveness.
What I mean is God doesn’t put qualifiers on His capacity to forgive. He just forgives. I see it as a parent with a child who took a cookie. The child may not yet feel repentance for taking the cookie because it was a good cookie but the parent doesn’t tell the child you’ll only be forgiven after you feel sorry for it. Yes the parent wants the child to repent but withholding forgiveness isn’t the way to go about it.
We are called to forgive, to love one another. Forgiving someone** does** mean we accept their bad behavior or that we must retain a relationship with that person. It means we accept God’s call. There are people in my past I hope I never see again. I’ve forgiven them but I don’t want them in my life.
This isn’t a complicated thing. There are no scenarios God would absolve us of our duty to forgive.
Bolding mine - It should read doesn’t. I’m not quite sure where the problem with my thoughts are on this. Are you saying that God does not forgive unless one asks? Are you saying we also should not forgive unless asked?Your theology on this is in no way Catholic. It just isn’t. It is not even a biblical view of repentance forgiveness and justice. I do think it is common though among many. But it lacks theology and strait up “logy” as well. Personally I think it as to do with a misunderstanding of our relationship with God. That and Catholics stereotypical aversion to reading the bible. Because you cannot read the old and New Testament all the way through word for word and come away with your cookie analogy. However that probably explains why there are no real confession lines to speak of. I hope your personal examination of conscience does not reflect your stated theology.
Are you saying that all you have to do to be forgiven and brought right with God is just to ask? That there is no change, no repenting, no amendment needed?Bolding mine - It should read doesn’t. I’m not quite sure where the problem with my thoughts are on this. Are you saying that God does not forgive unless one asks? Are you saying we also should not forgive unless asked?