Well, that’s a nice sanctimonious statement (and it happens to be what I have always believed) but the point here is that some very prominent Catholic apologists on Catholic Answers Live live have recently stated the opposite. What we need is to hear the BASIS for your point of view that they are wrong - from logic, Scripture, or documents of the Magisterium.Only if you wish to be forgiven as well. If you don’t care if you are forgiven for your many faults, then hey do as you wish. Remember we all have been unrepentant (or not quickly repentant) sinners ourselves.
I honestly think after reading this and that, that they are not using language in the same way the Church at large uses it.Well, that’s a nice sanctimonious statement (and it happens to be what I have always believed) but the point here is that some very prominent Catholic apologists on Catholic Answers Live live have recently stated the opposite. What we need is to hear the BASIS for your point of view that they are wrong - from logic, Scripture, or documents of the Magisterium.
Peace.
I struggle with this too, if we don’t forgive, this seems to imply we remain angry, and that would mean, we cannot love them as we love ourselves.But Akin seemed to me to say that we are not even required offer forgiveness to the unrepentant. That’s an entirely different statement that I find hard to get a handle on.
Peace.
God does forgive the unrepentant; He did so from the cross. The blessings of forgiveness are for the one who forgives.… God does not forgive the unrepentant.
What is the correct Catholic position? Can anyone shed more light on this?
Thanks.
I believe forgiveness for the unrepentant is offered, but it is not effected unless they repent.God does forgive the unrepentant; He did so from the cross. The blessings of forgiveness are for the one who forgives.
(Lk 17:3)
Clearly this shows that repentance and reconciliation is needed for forgiveness. Because God is clear here, without a setteling and repair of the relationship of the harmed parties there would be no forgiveness. It binds the offender to ask for mercy and the offended to be merciful. That is forgivenss.…24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25"Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
Our behavior and message should reflect our theology. The theology is fairly simple.…
And our theology should reflect that.
Not true. I know what you are trying to say, but what you are saying is not so.Forgiveness without repentance is permission.!!!
From Michelle ArnoldI think God and the Church have set a model for forgiveness for us to follow. And repentance is key, though we forget it often. But you cannot walk into a confessional and say I’m not sorry and receive forgiveness. You just cant.
Psychologically speaking many times it is beneficial to us to forgive the unrepentant.
HOWEVER we must be careful with this type of theology because it can be very protestant. Our faith expands on binding and loosing and forgiveness. It is a sacrament so we focus on it and much is made of it. This is a subject we know a lot about as Catholics which is why it confounds me about the theology expressed on the boards with this subject.
So, lets look at this theologically. An innocent victim, a child, is sexually abused by an adult. The adult, then is not repentant, vows to do it again any time he gets the chance. Does this child have a moral obligation to forgive. Is the crime committed against the child then binding on the morality of the innocent? Many protestants say yes.
The famous Duggars (whom I have always liked) have a theology led by a man named Goddard. And it deals with abuse in a most disgusting and protestant manner that I think should be discussed here.
Here are a couple of handouts that the Goddard group uses with sexual abuse victims
recoveringgrace.org/media/Counseling_Sexual_Abuse-540x700.jpeg
You can see question 1 and 2 set up the idea that abuse of the body is the least important type of abuse. Question 4 blames the victim. Question 10 sets up the moral obligation of the victim to forgive the offender.
Then we have this
recoveringgrace.org/media/Lessons_From_Moral_Failures_in_a_Family1.pdf
Again, blaming the victim.
As Catholics we should be especially attentive to this type of situation given our scandals. And our theology should reflect that. The title of this thread is MUST we forgive the unrepentant. The answer is that many times it is healthier to do so, but no, you do not have to. Imagine a theology and God that holds a command to the innocent to be bound by a moral action (forgivenss) be the simple fact that they have been abused! Too outlandish? Too extreme an example? No, because this extreme is carried out in some protestant theology and in reality some Catholic theology too. God sets the process of forgiveness clearly in the way salvation history is set up. He shows that because sin against another damages the relationship of the people involved that repentance is a reciprocal part of that healing.
Lets not forget that Matthew points this out well in Chapter 5
Clearly this shows that repentance and reconciliation is needed for forgiveness. Because God is clear here, without a setteling and repair of the relationship of the harmed parties there would be no forgiveness. It binds the offender to ask for mercy and the offended to be merciful. That is forgivenss.
Forgiveness without repentance is permission.!!!
All we can know is that God requires us to forgive others as a condition of being forgiven our own sins (Matt. 6:12). He will forgive us in equal measure to the measure of forgiveness we give to others (Matt. 7:1–2). If he forgives us, we cannot be stingy with the forgiveness we grant others (Matt. 18:23–25).
Forgiving in no way condones anyone’s behavior. I think in your theology is more protestant than many of us here. I was baffled by your comment that my thoughts on this issue were not Catholic as I learned this type of total forgiveness through my Catholic faith.In short, it is our duty as Christians to forgive to the fullest extent possible, and to trust God that he will apply that forgiveness to souls as he sees fit. If our forgiveness cannot help an impenitent person, perhaps God will use the graces merited by that forgiveness to soften another person’s hardened heart.
Ah yes your two scenarios are perfect! A judge would not be just with the first but with the second the judge would be merciful.Thanks again to all.
Think of it in a criminal context, involving a pardon for a crime. It seems there are two possibilities:
a) The governor simply pardons [forgives] the criminal without any conditions. The unilateral action of the governor accomplishes the pardon. The criminal simply walks out of prison. There is no requirement that he admit his wrongdoing, express remorse, or promise to avoid a life of crime in the future. It seems the only justification for this type of pardon would be that the man was innocent of the crime, or that he had been sentenced to too harsh of a punishment. That does not sound like the Catholic view of God’s forgiveness to me.
-OR-
b) The governor merely offers to pardon the criminal. The offer of pardon is conditioned on the criminal signing a confession, expressing remorse, and promising to do his best to avoid future crime. Unless and until the criminal takes the affirmative action of doing these things, there is no pardon. He remains in prison. So, he has not in fact been pardoned. He has only received an offer, with conditions.
Scenario b) is how I have always understood God’s forgiveness [or “pardon”] to work in Catholic theology. Perhaps I have been wrong, but it seems to be pretty basic “Catholicism 101” to me. That’s how the sacrament of Reconciliation works. There is no forgiveness / pardon / absolution / salvation without contrition and repentance of mortal sin.
Now, what does that mean for us in relation to our fellow man? Must we forgive him even if he is unrepentant? Must our offer forgiveness be unilateral and unconditional like “scenario a)” or can it be bilateral and conditional like “scenario b)”? Are we in fact being asked to be more merciful than God?
I guess I will just keep trying to forgive all offenses willingly, from my heart, and let God take it from there. But I do find this to be a serious intellectual conundrum.
I’m at a loss as to why you are having so much difficulty with this. Forgiveness is not the same thing as giving someone a free pass. What I believe is hanging you up is the idea that a victim of sexual abuse can or should forgive the person who abused them and that somehow the victim bears responsibility of the abuse. That is in no way what is being said.Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Yes this is clear. So let’s examine what this says.
“Forgive us our trespasses”. Here we ask God to forgive us. Our sins have damaged our relationship with God. We ask forgiveness. Step one asking step two repenting. As has already been established we must repent or God will not forgive. We cannot walk into the confessional and not be sorry and not ask for forgiveness and still be forgiven.
“As we forgive those who trespass against us.” This asks us to mirror gods mercy. To have an abundance of it.
So let’s still use sexual abuse if a minor here.
What is the victim asking? To be forgiven of trespasses. What is the condition? Repentance and asking.
So we are praying that God forgives us like we forgive others. We are not praying that God forgives our unrepented abuse of the innocent like we forgive unrepented abuse of the innocent.
Sin is really just a relationship destroyer. We are called to be in relationship with God and with our fellow man. Relationship is a reciprocal entity. We do something and the other party (God or man) does something in return. Sin destroys that. Forgiveness restores it! So to forgive an unrepentant does not restore relationship because the unrepentant are it reciprocating in the relationship…
So yes, God, forgive my trespasses in the same way I show justice and mercy.
This becomes even clearer if we substitute specific sins for trespasses.
Forgive my striking my brother as I forgive him for striking me. Relationship restored.
But now try this
I’m not asking for you or governess God because that jerk deserved it and I’ll do it again the next time I See him. Judge us the same.
Now try this and you will see the error of the Goddard baptist view.
“Forgive the innocent for tempting me and causing me to do what I did which was justified.”
The proper parallel in the Lord’s Prayer for the sin of sexual abuse or other sins would be this.
“Forgive my molesting as I have forgiven my molester”. This implies repentance sorrow and mercy.
This is not Catholic theology at all. Restoration of a relationship with fellow man is not a requirement for forgiveness.Sorry, I phone…
I think you are confusing non forgiveness with harboring ill will. A thirst for justice is not harboring ill will a refusal to forgive an unrepentant and asking God to judge them is not ill will.
Someone abused by say an unrepentant Catholic priest does not have a moral obligation to “forgive” them, they only have the obligation to be judged by the same standard.
I think what is getting lost here is the absolute necessity for repentance when we sin. That is the precursor to forgiveness which restores relationship. We cannot restore relationship with God without it so how could we restore relationship with eachother without it.
One more time.
A sin happens. In this case sexual abuse of an innocent. Relationship is destroyed between God and man AND man and man. To be forgiven the sinner must repent and ask for forgiveness. They must at least have remorse. Or God will not forgive. IF the abuser or any sinner really, asks for forgiveness and repents. A Christian is OBLIGATED to extend forgiveness and mercy. Just the same way God does. If they do not, then it is not right to expect God to show them mercy when they sin. BUT the obligation to restore relationship is not there without the relation or reciprocal part is not met. So with an unrepentant sinner the victim is NOT obligated to forgive because they are not being asked to…