My #1 reason for not converting...

[bobzills]

I did not ask you to retract anything. I just found the article balanced and thought you may be interested.

However, I would like to point out that the endorsement of confession-exacting torture would have fallen under a “practice” of the church. The practice or endorsement of the Church was just the opposite for the first thousand. Like married priests, we can freely disagree or agree with the Church’s practice of not allowing Latin Rite priests to marry.

What I believe Manny was referring to are the dogmas of the Church, not practices.

God Bless,
Maria

In my personal opinion, there is a big difference between a teaching on torture and a teaching on celibacy for clergy. Celibacy for clergy is something which is freely agreed to at the time of signing up. You know ahead of time what you are getting into and you are free to sign up or not. This is not the same as torture. which is imposed agaisnt your will and where there is a universal philosophical consensus that torture is wrong and immoral.

 

[jmcrae]

In my personal opinion, there is a big difference between a teaching on torture and a teaching on celibacy for clergy. Celibacy for clergy is something which is freely agreed to at the time of signing up. You know ahead of time what you are getting into and you are free to sign up or not. This is not the same as torture. which is imposed agaisnt your will and where there is a universal philosophical consensus that torture is wrong and immoral.

Well, obviously, prior to the Geneva Convention in World War I, such a “common consensus” did not exist. Most countries used torture, and most people realized that it would be used on them if they were suspected of being something other than what they claimed to be.

 

[bobzills]

However, I would like to point out that the endorsement of confession-exacting torture would have fallen under a “practice” of the church. The practice or endorsement of the Church was just the opposite for the first thousand. Like married priests, we can freely disagree or agree with the Church’s practice of not allowing Latin Rite priests to marry.

What I believe Manny was referring to are the dogmas of the Church, not practices.

God Bless,
Maria

There is another big difference between a teaching on married priests and a teaching on torture. There is no World Organisation which opposes celbacy on humanitarian and moral grounds… Whereas there is World organisation against torture, which is a coalition of governmental organisations fighting against the use of torture on humanitarian grounds as it is universally seen to be a denial of human rights.,

 

[bobzills]

Well, obviously, prior to the Geneva Convention in World War I, such a “common consensus” did not exist. Most countries used torture, and most people realized that it would be used on them if they were suspected of being something other than what they claimed to be.

But in 1816 a bull of Pope Pius VII enjoined all Catholic rulers to abolish the use of torture.

 

[MariaG]

In my personal opinion, there is a big difference between a teaching on torture and a teaching on celibacy for clergy. Celibacy for clergy is something which is freely agreed to at the time of signing up. You know ahead of time what you are getting into and you are free to sign up or not. This is not the same as torture. which is imposed agaisnt your will and where there is a universal philosophical consensus that torture is wrong and immoral.

But there is no difference in the fact that the PRACTICE of allowing married priests, has changed over the years and the PRCATICE of condoning torture has changed also. From completely condeming it, to allowing it, to condeming it again.

I would disagree that torture is intrinsically evil.

In that article I linked to it talked of it. From This Rock
By Fr. Brian W. Harrison, O.S. The Church and Torture

A historical overview of Judeo-Christian thinking on this topic is helpful. Sacred Scripture nowhere endorses torture for the purpose of forcing people to act or speak against their will, but the Old Testament does clearly teach that severe and intentional infliction of pain was willed by God not only as eternal punishment for the wicked in hell but also as humanly imposed temporal punishment for convicted malefactors (e.g., Lev. 20:1–2, 14; Deut. 22:23–24; 25:1–3). Also, fathers are urged to discipline wayward sons by soundly beating them (Prov. 13:24; Sir. 30:1, 9, 11–13).

Now, of course, we know that the more perfect law of Christ disapproves of certain previously endorsed practices such as the harsh and vindictive “eye for eye and tooth for tooth” (Matt. 5:38–39). Nevertheless, Catholic faith in the inspiration and inerrancy of all Scripture disallows us from qualifying such practices as intrinsically (always and everywhere) evil or unjust.

Sorry, I went a little color crazy:hypno:

 

[Harmony1988]

Hi,

I know title is provoking. But seriously, I’m not looking for a fight.

There are many things in Catholicism that I like, and it seems to be the church that makes the most sense compared to others. Dogmas are well-defended and generally plausible.

However, I know so many Christians that are not Catholics (mainly Lutheran Charismatics) yet are on fire for God. I don’t talk about worship-song-i-love-you-jesus on fire, but REALLY on fire, giving their lives to the Lord, trusting in him. And I see God bless them, do miracles through them. I know several prophets and a few that speak in tongues, and some time ago, a miracle somewhat like the one with loaves and fish happened at a church I know.

If I looked solely at teachings and apologetics, I might as well be a Catholic, but when I look at these people, I can’t really believe that the Catholic Church is superior to other churches, as it claims. I can’t believe that these people are not the church.

If these miracles are not due to God, who then? I can’t believe it’s the devil.

• CB

Jesus never discriminated, all have fallen short remember? Catholics, Lutherans, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. It makes sense that whoever gives their life fully to Jesus and is fully into it will receive many blessings and graces.

Some people are Protestants because they were raised with that idea from birth, God will not cease to help because of that.

 

[jmcrae]

But in 1816 a bull of Pope Pius VII enjoined all Catholic rulers to abolish the use of torture.

Yes. A century before the rest of the world.

 

[MariaG]

Yes. A century before the rest of the world.

PSST! Wrong thread delete your so I can delete this one

 

[MariaG]

Yes. A century before the rest of the world.

I think I need to take a break, I am losing track of my threads and blaming others:blush:

And really, the Catholic Church was actually ahead of the times for almost a century, by condeming torture. Then she lost her leadership and followed the world instead of being a beacon of light

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think I need to take a break, I am losing track of my threads and blaming others:blush:

And really, the Catholic Church was actually ahead of the times for almost a century, by condeming torture. Then she lost her leadership and followed the world instead of being a beacon of light

You ought to buy Fr. Corapi’s Leadership set. It focuses on the lack of leadership inside the Church (locally I assumed).

 

[jmcrae]

I think I need to take a break, I am losing track of my threads and blaming others:blush:

And really, the Catholic Church was actually ahead of the times for almost a century, by condeming torture. Then she lost her leadership and followed the world instead of being a beacon of light

In what sense is the Church “following the world” in modern times? I’m not seeing it.

 

[FAB]

Dear Contrabass101,

There are many reasons to convert. In the church you will find many devotions, Chrismatics and yes miracles. I have been a life long Catgholic. In that regard I feel extremely blessed. My parents showed me the way, and despit looking elsewere, I always came back to the church. The one thing the Cathiolic Church that the protestants don’t is the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. As Catholics, we become what we recieve. Each mass we become part of Christ and always share in His salvation.
For me I do have the fire of God within me, or more appropriate the Carmelite charge;“Filled with a Jealous zeal for God”. I get this not just by observation, but through participation in and study of my faith, it was only then that my faith came alive and my try love for my savior, Jesus Christ.
My study hasn’t ended and it never will. The more I learn the more I see the true richness of the faith. I see many discussions on these blog about which rite should be used, or which song, if the church is progressing of backsliding. For me it is about my own spiritualty and finding and living Christ’s message. The Church is what I believe gets me there. I not only know about God, but I do feel I know him, but not all the way, and I will never have all the answers about Him.
In all honesty,I do need to tell you that I am giving my life for my God. Not as priest, but as a Perminate Deacon. This has been a lifelong journey that will continue after ordination.
For you and far all of you who are searching, I will offer a prayer that you find what you are looking far. I believe whole heartedly that you can find it in the Catholic Church.
My the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.
FAB

 

[mgrfin]

Torture and the death penalty are different things, in fairness.

Not least of which because the definition of torture changes; the definition of the death penalty does not.

It should be noted as well that some things we consider to be torture today were once preferred to jail terms or other penalties in the Middle Ages. Thus, criminals would claim “benefit of clergy” to receive a thumb brand and go their merry way. Many today would consider such practices to be torture.

So, what are you saying? The Catholic Church condones torture?

 

[mgrfin]

Jesus never discriminated, all have fallen short remember? Catholics, Lutherans, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. It makes sense that whoever gives their life fully to Jesus and is fully into it will receive many blessings and graces.

Some people are Protestants because they were raised with that idea from birth, God will not cease to help because of that.

Really? You have heard the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues through people? You have seen miracles performed?

Really?

I have a hard time believing such. I am a confirmed Catholic, but if you see people performing miracles, you should follow them - God is upon them.

peace

 

[bobzills]

But there is no difference in the fact that the PRACTICE of allowing married priests, has changed over the years and the PRCATICE of condoning torture has changed also. From completely condeming it, to allowing it, to condeming it again.

I would disagree that torture is intrinsically evil.
:

This is where we disagree. i think that it is morally wrong to go around torturing people. It is a humiliation of the person. Whereas, I do not think that celibacy is morally wrong.

So, what are you saying? The Catholic Church condones torture?

I don’t know what he is saying.
But what I said was this:
At one point in time, the Church approved the use of torture to extract confessions under certain circumstances. At the present point in time, the Church condemns the use of torture.
I see this as not so much a disciplinary issue as celibacy, but a moral or human rights issue. “Torture is a humiliation of the human person, whoever it is,” said Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican pontifical council on peace and justice. “The Church does not allow these means to extract the truth.”

 

[mgrfin]

I don’t know what he is saying…"

It’s not clear?

Is the Catholic Church today condoning torture?

peace

 

[peary]

Torture and the death penalty are different things, in fairness.

Not least of which because the definition of torture changes; the definition of the death penalty does not.

It should be noted as well that some things we consider to be torture today were once preferred to jail terms or other penalties in the Middle Ages. Thus, criminals would claim “benefit of clergy” to receive a thumb brand and go their merry way. Many today would consider such practices to be torture.

One of the biggest propaganda today is what supposedly happened to Galileo. I guess if you tell a lie - and a big one - often enough, people being to believe it, such as Galileo being tortured and living in a dungeon somewhere.

Galileo was placed under “house arrest”. What does that mean? Galileo was confined to a home donated to him by his friend, the Grand Duke of Tuscany, but still had the freedom to walk on the property. Upon the intervention of Archbishop Piccolomini, Galileo was permitted to move to Siena into the custody of the Archbishop whose understanding and compassion helped save Galileo’s sanity and even possibly his life. His condemnation by the Church was deeply felt. He wrote to his daughter, a nun, Sister Maria Celeste, that his name was removed from the book of the living. The Archbishop encouraged Galileo to turn his mind to science once again and prompted him to begin work on his long-planned treatise on motion.

By the end of the year Galileo was given permission to retire to his own country home near Florence on the condition that he not leave the house without permission, while his visitors and communications were carefully watched. Several scurrilous attacks on Dialogue were published, but Galileo was forbidden to reply. He was kept from carrying on his studies in the areas he loved most, but he did complete several important works that he had begun much earlier. His telescope was used to study further the motions of the Jovian moons. The observations were cut short, however, by his failing eye sight.

He did write several discourses which appeared after his death. He died in 1642.

It might have been cruel, but, remember, if Italians didn’t like a composer’s opera, they would run him out of town or even burn down his house. This was done on numerous occassions, without Church intervention, by the way.

So much for the Church’s torture methods on Galileo.

 

[DebChris]

Really? You have heard the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues through people? You have seen miracles performed?

Really?

I have a hard time believing such. I am a confirmed Catholic, but if you see people performing miracles, you should follow them - God is upon them.

peace

I am one of those “crazy Charismatics” who experienced Pentecost. I sing in a language that I do not know while my natural voice remains as flat as it has ever been.
As Catholics each of us has been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit through Baptism and Confirmation. We have learned reverance for God from our parents and others. What is often lacking is full acceptance that the God who created the universe wants to be an integral part of that life, that He wants to have an intimate relationship with each one of us. I often return to a story I heard at Mass when I was a child of about ten. The visiting Dominican priest had asked another group about my age, “How big is God?” A ten year old responded, “God is so big the universe cannot hold Him and God is so small He can fit into my heart.”
I had not even heard of the Charismatic Renewal when God brought me into it. It was a time of great crisis and I went on Easter retreat at the House of the Lord, run by Marianists. I kept returning knowing that I would experience a miracle by Pentecost. On Ascension Thursday, I was prayed over and began singing in an angelic voice as I received the Baptism of theHoly Spirit. My life has not been the same since.
This “Baptism” is not a new Sacrament. In Catholic theology it is a release of those gifts that we have already received by nature of our Baptism and Confirmation. It is our opportunity to open these gifts and begin to use them. It is beginning to understand for the first time what it means for God to fit in our hearts.

 

[DebChris]

But in 1816 a bull of Pope Pius VII enjoined all Catholic rulers to abolish the use of torture.

What I read in this statement and others is that it was Catholic rulers, as distinguished from the Church, who used torture in a misguided effort to coerce individuals to accept Catholic doctrine.
The Church is comprised of sinners. These abuses of the Word of God have turned Christians against Christians and contradict the gospel as good news.
It is both Catholics and Protestants who tortured the Amish. Yet when their children were killed, it is their act of forgiveness that captivated the world. It is this forgiveness to which Christ calls His followers.

 

[Teflon93]

So, what are you saying? The Catholic Church condones torture?

No, simply that there was a vastly different definition of torture in the past than exists today, and bobzills’ very convenient ignorance of barbaric Protestant practice during the 2 centuries during and following the Reformation conveniently ignores this.

There is no definitional question regarding the death penalty, as being put to death is being put to death, no matter how kind or cruel the means may be.

As usual, the Protestant’s quarrel here is with God, not the Catholic Church. Scripture is rife with God-sanctioned practices in the past which we now eschew; Protestants in putting forth this particular argument pretend not to know anything of Scripture nor their own bloody history.