My #1 reason for not converting...

[Teflon93]

One of the biggest propaganda today is what supposedly happened to Galileo. I guess if you tell a lie - and a big one - often enough, people being to believe it, such as Galileo being tortured and living in a dungeon somewhere.

Galileo was placed under “house arrest”. What does that mean? Galileo was confined to a home donated to him by his friend, the Grand Duke of Tuscany, but still had the freedom to walk on the property. Upon the intervention of Archbishop Piccolomini, Galileo was permitted to move to Siena into the custody of the Archbishop whose understanding and compassion helped save Galileo’s sanity and even possibly his life. His condemnation by the Church was deeply felt. He wrote to his daughter, a nun, Sister Maria Celeste, that his name was removed from the book of the living. The Archbishop encouraged Galileo to turn his mind to science once again and prompted him to begin work on his long-planned treatise on motion.

By the end of the year Galileo was given permission to retire to his own country home near Florence on the condition that he not leave the house without permission, while his visitors and communications were carefully watched. Several scurrilous attacks on Dialogue were published, but Galileo was forbidden to reply. He was kept from carrying on his studies in the areas he loved most, but he did complete several important works that he had begun much earlier. His telescope was used to study further the motions of the Jovian moons. The observations were cut short, however, by his failing eye sight.

He did write several discourses which appeared after his death. He died in 1642.

It might have been cruel, but, remember, if Italians didn’t like a composer’s opera, they would run him out of town or even burn down his house. This was done on numerous occassions, without Church intervention, by the way.

So much for the Church’s torture methods on Galileo.

Exactly right. A similar example from our own American Revolution was the practice of tarring-and-feathering, which is treated almost comedically. In reality, being dunked in burning tar and having pieces of flesh pulled off in trying to remove the mess later was far more torturous than punishment meted out to the worst criminals today.

So bobzills and other anti-Catholics adopt “ain’t this barbaric?” poses by anachronistically and selectively reading today’s allegedly enlightened practices backward in time to judge those of our ancestors. Of course, our ancestors didn’t butcher millions of baby’s in utero nor pack the elderly off to strange places to die alone, either.

It is the distinctive mark of the sophist to sift history for things to snuffle about, all while judiciously ignoring the comparitive practices of one’s favored forebears.

 

[peary]

Exactly right. A similar example from our own American Revolution was the practice of tarring-and-feathering, which is treated almost comedically. In reality, being dunked in burning tar and having pieces of flesh pulled off in trying to remove the mess later was far more torturous than punishment meted out to the worst criminals today.

So bobzills and other anti-Catholics adopt “ain’t this barbaric?” poses by anachronistically and selectively reading today’s allegedly enlightened practices backward in time to judge those of our ancestors. Of course, our ancestors didn’t butcher millions of baby’s in utero nor pack the elderly off to strange places to die alone, either.

It is the distinctive mark of the sophist to sift history for things to snuffle about, all while judiciously ignoring the comparitive practices of one’s favored forebears.

 

[mgrfin]

I am one of those “crazy Charismatics” who experienced Pentecost. I sing in a language that I do not know while my natural voice remains as flat as it has ever been.
As Catholics each of us has been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit through Baptism and Confirmation. We have learned reverance for God from our parents and others. What is often lacking is full acceptance that the God who created the universe wants to be an integral part of that life, that He wants to have an intimate relationship with each one of us. I often return to a story I heard at Mass when I was a child of about ten. The visiting Dominican priest had asked another group about my age, “How big is God?” A ten year old responded, “God is so big the universe cannot hold Him and God is so small He can fit into my heart.”
I had not even heard of the Charismatic Renewal when God brought me into it. It was a time of great crisis and I went on Easter retreat at the House of the Lord, run by Marianists. I kept returning knowing that I would experience a miracle by Pentecost. On Ascension Thursday, I was prayed over and began singing in an angelic voice as I received the Baptism of theHoly Spirit. My life has not been the same since.
This “Baptism” is not a new Sacrament. In Catholic theology it is a release of those gifts that we have already received by nature of our Baptism and Confirmation. It is our opportunity to open these gifts and begin to use them. It is beginning to understand for the first time what it means for God to fit in our hearts.

In the Early Church the Gift of Tongues was evident. But it fell into disuse because it was abused. People were speaking nonesense. Christians could no longer understand what was being said, and we came to accept that the Holy Spirit would not speak to the mass of Christians and not be understood.

As for miracles. I see lots of them on TBN. Benny Hinn performs more miracles than Jesus performed. Not one of them has ever been proven to be true. They are fakes, perpetrated on the rest of us for Hinn’s mission of raising money.

peace

 

[DebChris]

In the Early Church the Gift of Tongues was evident. But it fell into disuse because it was abused. People were speaking nonesense. Christians could no longer understand what was being said, and we came to accept that the Holy Spirit would not speak to the mass of Christians and not be understood.

As for miracles. I see lots of them on TBN. Benny Hinn performs more miracles than Jesus performed. Not one of them has ever been proven to be true. They are fakes, perpetrated on the rest of us for Hinn’s mission of raising money.

peace

Benny Hinn is not Catholic. Blessed John XXIII prayed for a New Pentecost to overshadow the Roman Catholic Church as he convened Vatican II. This has indeed happened. The Charismatic Renewal is recognized and blessed by the vatican. It requires adherence to the Magisterium. As we know from the canonization process, miracles do occur within the Church and undergo investigation to prove authenticity. A crying Madonna, for instance, must be proved not to result from a broken water pipe.
The vatican papers and the Catechism of the Catholic Church both speak about the charisms, or gifts that God has given individuals. Each is given for the upbuilding of the Church even as they bring healing and consolation to the person who has been blessed by such gifts.

 

[mgrfin]

Benny Hinn is not Catholic. Blessed John XXIII prayed for a New Pentecost to overshadow the Roman Catholic Church as he convened Vatican II. This has indeed happened. The Charismatic Renewal is recognized and blessed by the vatican. It requires adherence to the Magisterium. As we know from the canonization process, miracles do occur within the Church and undergo investigation to prove authenticity. A crying Madonna, for instance, must be proved not to result from a broken water pipe.
The vatican papers and the Catechism of the Catholic Church both speak about the charisms, or gifts that God has given individuals. Each is given for the upbuilding of the Church even as they bring healing and consolation to the person who has been blessed by such gifts.

In no way do I mean to say that miracles do not happen. They do.
But they are rare. That is why they are considered miraculous.

Although this is somewhat irrelevant, but Benny Hinn claims he was a Catholic.

As for speaking with tongues. I have problems with this. I do not see what purpose it serves to the Christian community. People speaking German who never knew this language - okay. That is communication. But people speaking ‘gibberish’ - for whose edification is that. It may be but an emotional outburst, and nothing more.

peace

 

[DebChris]

In no way do I mean to say that miracles do not happen. They do.
But they are rare. That is why they are considered miraculous.

Although this is somewhat irrelevant, but Benny Hinn claims he was a Catholic.

As for speaking with tongues. I have problems with this. I do not see what purpose it serves to the Christian community. People speaking German who never knew this language - okay. That is communication. But people speaking ‘gibberish’ - for whose edification is that. It may be but an emotional outburst, and nothing more.

peace

There are a few other threads that deal with this issue in better detail. I do not wish to take this thread astray.
The first time I saw the phenomonon, my reaction was much as yours. It was at a Pentecostal service to which I had been invited. The person who invited me did not understand how I could simply observe and not participate or how I could be Christian without the gift of tongues. Visions of Jim Jones went through my head, especially as I saw a young boy baptized. Where was the consent? Moreover she refused my invitation to join me at Mass.

It is difficult to express what takes place interiorly. The Spirit prays through me when I do not know how to pray or what to pray. By allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through me in a language that I do not understand, I am better able to discern between difficult choices. If the gift were merely emotional, would it not also be shortlived? The prayer language itself is not an end in itself but rather an aid that helps me in my spiritual walk with Christ. It is less important than the changes others may see in how I respond to different situations. It is knowing that when I lector at Mass, the words that I proclaim are not merely me reading words on a page. As a nun once put it, “if it is from God why would I refuse?”
Jesus told his followers “you will do the works I do and even greater than these.” While we may call them miracles, Jesus did not. When Jesus is fully alive in our hearts, should we not expect these works to be even more common? Did He not come that the “blind might see and the lame walk, and to set captives free”?
Of course, when the Apostles started preaching on Pentecost, many thought they were drunk. The Charismatic Renewal has been around for forty years. It has resulted in vocations to the religious life and priesthood. Priests who have received the Baptism of the Spirit at Steubenville and on other retreats have discovered a new zeal to their preaching. As John the Baptism said, “I must decrease that He might increase” so that the life I live becomes more fully the life that Christ would have me live.

 

[mgrfin]

Of course, when the Apostles started preaching on Pentecost, many thought they were drunk. The Charismatic Renewal has been around for forty years. It has resulted in vocations to the religious life and priesthood. Priests who have received the Baptism of the Spirit at Steubenville and on other retreats have discovered a new zeal to their preaching. As John the Baptism said, “I must decrease that He might increase” so that the life I live becomes more fully the life that Christ would have me live.

That is the point. The Apostles spoke in languages they did not know, but those standing around each understood them in their own tongue.

If there is no understanding, it is gibbersih. The Holy Spirit is not going to be speaking to us without understanding.

These are emotional outbursts - releases as it were. It is a pent up emotional urge to release something, so the release comes out fast and furious but in an unintelligible manner.

It is not any language, or any communication. Even Paul told us to be wary of such a gift. I think miracles are more common than the Holy Spirit speaking through us in some intelligible language with these outbursts.

peace

 

[peary]

That is the point. The Apostles spoke in languages they did not know, but those standing around each understood them in their own tongue.

If there is no understanding, it is gibbersih. The Holy Spirit is not going to be speaking to us without understanding.

These are emotional outbursts - releases as it were. It is a pent up emotional urge to release something, so the release comes out fast and furious but in an unintelligible manner.

It is not any language, or any communication. Even Paul told us to be wary of such a gift. I think miracles are more common than the Holy Spirit speaking through us in some intelligible language with these outbursts.

peace

It is known that ancient Greek “mystery religions” had “speaking in tongues” too which sounded the same…outbursts of emotional gibberish. This is not to ‘dis’ Pentecostals, but I think if you read what scripture tells you ABOUT the gift of tongues, you can make your own judgment.

 

[bobzills]

Galileo was placed under “house arrest”. .

Why was he placed under house arrest?

 

[bobzills]

Exactly right. A similar example from our own American Revolution was the practice of tarring-and-feathering, which is treated almost comedically. In reality, being dunked in burning tar and having pieces of flesh pulled off in trying to remove the mess later was far more torturous than punishment meted out to the worst criminals today.

So bobzills and other anti-Catholics adopt “ain’t this barbaric?” poses by anachronistically and selectively reading today’s allegedly enlightened practices backward in time to judge those of our ancestors. Of course, our ancestors didn’t butcher millions of baby’s in utero nor pack the elderly off to strange places to die alone, either.

It is the distinctive mark of the sophist to sift history for things to snuffle about, all while judiciously ignoring the comparitive practices of one’s favored forebears.

It really doesn’t change my view on it.

1. there is a big difference between teaching clerical celibacy and teaching that torture is OK. There really is no comparison beteen the two teachings. One is voluntary, the other is not. And further, torture is degrading, humiliating, painful, and a violation of human rights, whereas clerical celibacy is nothing like that at all.
2. At one point in time, the Church approved of the use of torture, under certain circumstances, whereas the present teaching is that the use of torture is condemned. There has been a change in the teaching of the Church on this issue.
3. Regardless of who used torture, I am against its use and I continue to believe that it is wrong to use torture.

 

[peary]

Why was he placed under house arrest?

Because at that time, the Church had the power of enforcement over its priests, much as it does now, if it really wanted to show a strength of force. Besides, the pope and he were personal friends, believe it or not. The pope was Galileo’s major benefactor for his work!

 

[bobzills]

Because at that time, the Church had the power of enforcement over its priests, much as it does now, if it really wanted to show a strength of force. Besides, the pope and he were personal friends, believe it or not. The pope was Galileo’s major benefactor for his work!

I seriously doubt that Galileo was placed under house arrest because he and the pope were friends.

 

[kidderdoc]

I seriously doubt that Galileo was placed under house arrest because he and the pope were friends.

As I read some of your posts, I can’t help but wonder where you get your misinformation from? Anyway, here is an article by Patrick Madrid on Galileo for your edification. Yes, there was a house arrest, but he lived in the lap of luxury for the duration…
catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0033.html

Only a Divinely lead institution such as the Catholic Church would be able to withstand a bad bishop here or a bad pope there…precisely because we have the promise of Christ to prevail against the gates of hell…in any case, Jesus picked Judas and they still survived that little scandal!

 

[po18guy]

In what sense is the Church “following the world” in modern times? I’m not seeing it.

Latin American example: Liberation theology that caused associations with godless communist revolutionary movements, because of some overlap in concerns. The evil one confuses and distracts is just such a manner.

American example: The sexual abuse scandal. Rampant homosexuality was allowed/permitted in many seminaries, with the prophets of that age predicting a train wreck. They were disregarded. Dioceses are now declaring bankruptcy.

Hundreds of priests and nuns attending dissident meetings. catholic.com/projects/wolves_in_sheeps_clothing.asp The evil one uses the world’s idea of fairness against the truth.

Each Catholic is called to daily combat against the world, which remains the kingdom of the evil one. When we fail, when our leaders fail, the evil one triumphs.

 

[po18guy]

Benny Hinn is not Catholic. Blessed John XXIII prayed for a New Pentecost to overshadow the Roman Catholic Church as he convened Vatican II. This has indeed happened. The Charismatic Renewal is recognized and blessed by the vatican. It requires adherence to the Magisterium. As we know from the canonization process, miracles do occur within the Church and undergo investigation to prove authenticity. A crying Madonna, for instance, must be proved not to result from a broken water pipe.
The vatican papers and the Catechism of the Catholic Church both speak about the charisms, or gifts that God has given individuals. Each is given for the upbuilding of the Church even as they bring healing and consolation to the person who has been blessed by such gifts.

To paraphrase Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta: “We can do no great miracles. Only small miracles with great love”

 

[peary]

I seriously doubt that Galileo was placed under house arrest because he and the pope were friends.

Well, they were more than acquaintances, that’s for sure. You sound disappointed that he was placed under house arrest rather than get thrown into the torture chamber. LOL Bad ideas die hard, I guess.

 

[jmcrae]

I seriously doubt that Galileo was placed under house arrest because he and the pope were friends.

The reason was that Galileo was preaching science from the pulpit - he wanted to elevate his theory that the sun is the center of the Universe, and that the planets travel in perfect circles, to the level of Church dogma. He made a public nuisance of himself in his quest to accomplish this, and considering that his theory was incorrect, it’s a good thing that he did not succeed.

They put him under house arrest because he was making a nuisance of himself in public.

 

[bobzills]

As I read some of your posts, I can’t help but wonder where you get your misinformation from? :

Specfically, what statement of mine are you referring to which contains information which is incorrect? Or are you just slinging mud.

 

[Teflon93]

It really doesn’t change my view on it.

I am shocked, shocked that it didn’t.

1. there is a big difference between teaching clerical celibacy and teaching that torture is OK. There really is no comparison beteen the two teachings. One is voluntary, the other is not. And further, torture is degrading, humiliating, painful, and a violation of human rights, whereas clerical celibacy is nothing like that at all.

The big difference is that clerical celibacy is well-defined and has been since the Apostolic Age. Torture seems to be defined as “whatever we happen to deem to be barbaric now, so long as it is practiced by dead men with whom we disagree.”

1. At one point in time, the Church approved of the use of torture, under certain circumstances, whereas the present teaching is that the use of torture is condemned. There has been a change in the teaching of the Church on this issue.

Do Presbyterians still torture Catholics?

1. Regardless of who used torture, I am against its use and I continue to believe that it is wrong to use torture.

I await your condemnation of Calvin and Zwingli then.

 

[Teflon93]

Well, they were more than acquaintances, that’s for sure. You sound disappointed that he was placed under house arrest rather than get thrown into the torture chamber. LOL Bad ideas die hard, I guess.

He is apparently curator of the Museum of Catholic Badness. He has rejected several wonderful collections of Protestant evils contemperaneous with the periods he’s exhibiting so as not to water down his message with irrelevancies like historical context and cultural norms.