My 16 year-old daughter flipped the bird

[Bruised_Reed]

The people who think shaming is okay don’t realize it’s abusive. It says, “you’re bad,” not, “what you did was bad (or might have been bad, depending on details that are unknown.”)

 

[JMMJ]

I agree, and with those messages come a whole boat load of more messages, such as: “You aren’t worthy” ; You are “less than”; “Shame is a more valuable emotion than others when we do wrong (as opposed to say, contrition, empathy)”, and a whole host of other things that can lead to messed up lives for those who are shamed.

Honestly, the study of psychology is a good thing and we should all try to educate ourselves so we do better.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Right, it’s as though we haven’t learned a thing about abuse and trauma over the centuries. In most places we are not literally trying to survive though war, famine, etc. so we can afford to slow down and consider the long-term effects of unwanted behaviour and how it is dealt with.

 

[Norseman82]

Either they already knew what they did was wrong, and they already felt bad about it, because I had raised them properly… Or they had no knowledge of what they did was wrong and it was an opportunity for education. In either instance, me shaming them would have done no good whatsoever. I don’t understand why Catholics seem so big on shaming.

OK, but what if they DO know it is wrong and do NOT feel bad about it?

 

[JMMJ]

OK, but what if they DO know it is wrong and do NOT feel bad about it?

Then you haven’t done the best job in raising them, and you need to do some reassessment. By nature, if we know something is wrong, if our conscience has been formed properly then we feel bad or regretful about it.

In this instance, shame still is not appropriate. Shame, brought on by someone other than oneself, is not the proper way to help another form their conscience.

Often, what happens is a parent tries to teach a child something is wrong. They tell them over and over something is wrong. But the kid doesn’t “know” it is wrong because the kid doesn’t “believe” it is wrong. As parents, it is our job to convince. Trying to bring a teenager over to your way of thinking by hitting them or shaming them doesn’t work. It may change their behavior in the short-term. If that is all a parent is after, then go for it (I guess). As a parent, that is never enough for me, though. I am better than that, and so is a kid.

I believe we are all born with the capacity for empathy. As parents we need to feed that and nurture it. Parents don’t have these kinds of problems, too much, when they raise empathetic kids. That is where I spent my energy in correcting bad behavior in teenagers.

 

[po18guy]

I guess that musing fails to amuse, so I’m gone.

 

[Norseman82]

Then you haven’t done the best job in raising them, and you need to do some reassessment. By nature, if we know something is wrong, if our conscience has been formed properly then we feel bad or regretful about it.

In this instance, shame still is not appropriate. Shame, brought on by someone other than oneself, is not the proper way to help another form their conscience.

Often, what happens is a parent tries to teach a child something is wrong. They tell them over and over something is wrong. But the kid doesn’t “know” it is wrong because the kid doesn’t “believe” it is wrong. As parents, it is our job to convince. Trying to bring a teenager over to your way of thinking by hitting them or shaming them doesn’t work. It may change their behavior in the short-term. If that is all a parent is after, then go for it (I guess). As a parent, that is never enough for me, though. I am better than that, and so is a kid.

I believe we are all born with the capacity for empathy. As parents we need to feed that and nurture it. Parents don’t have these kinds of problems, too much, when they raise empathetic kids. That is where I spent my energy in correcting bad behavior in teenagers.

If your children responded properly to your good parenting, then I applaud you. However, Cardinal George in a talk referred to a WW2 study that stated that a certain percentage of people have no conscience (or words to that effect, as it was over a decade ago that I heard this talk). Whereas you don’t “go for the big guns” initially, if you start running out of other options, you can retain that as an option. And if you read my post, I did state “if she values her grandparents’ respect”.

Keep in mind that once the child reaches adulthood, certain actions (whether in employment, legal, otherwise) will be disseminated in various circles, so it’s best that she learn that lesson now in small things before it comes back to bite her in a major way in adulthood where the consequences may be far greater.

 

[JMMJ]

I don’t believe anyone is born without a conscience. That is a cop out.

An exception may be someone who suffers a TBI while in utero or during the birthing process, I suppose.

Please don’t misunderstand me. Suffering consequences for bad decisions can be a very helpful piece of the learning process. Shaming doesn’t need to be a part of that, though.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

OK, but what if they DO know it is wrong and do NOT feel bad about it?

The occassions in which it appeared that a person did not feel bad were ones in which they were shamed, or were used to that. The not feeling bad was self-defence, usually because discipline was primarily punishments. As I posted upthread, shaming sends the message that the person is bad not the behavior. Also, a lot of parenting methods are focused on breaking the child’s will, not shaping it. Or breaking their spirit until they are little automatons filled with quiet rage. Children do all kinds of maladaptive things to survive these assaults to their emotional well-being.

That person may actually feel badly but will not give you or whomever the satisfaction that you broke their will. Their survival depends on it.

This was so long ago that I forget the details…I worked as an aide at a day care center. There was a little boy who was misbehaving and enjoying it. I gently asked him to stop, I probably said please, and I might have explained why it was wrong. His reaction was interesting; he knew he did something wrong and got caught and acted like he knew he was going to get scolded. But I was gentle and quiet. I appealed to the good in him. He listened, he face and posture changed, more open and later he insisted on sitting next to me during storytime. I had a little shadow for a few days. And no misbehavior, at least during the time I was on his section (I was a floater.) I also knew it would be tricky to maintain that without favoring him or leave him feeling like I didnt care; but I managed. I think his surprise at my unexpected approach was what gave me an edge.
And wasn’t the only time I had similar experiences. First and foremost, I didn’t expect a child to have better self-regulation than me. If a child was misbehaving I looked at their “environment” what was wrong: Tired? Hungry? Hot? Worried? When kids who are used to being scolded for expressing their needs have them acknowledged, something happens, it feels magical. It’s hard work. It takes a lot of forethought, it helps to have good tools in one’s parenting tool kit and good consistent habits. The latter means I’m less like to lose my cool and secondly it builds trust.

If an adult reacts hard and fast to incidents the OP’s what do you think might happen when something much more serious like a pregnancy happens? Do your kids trust that you won’t kill them, embarrass them, what have you? Or will they choose abortion to avoid their parent’s wrath?

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

By definition, there is “forcing” going on already. She has a religious education teacher. That is forced. Technically, any teacher is forced, even public school teachers. Meh, if children didn’t need forcing, they’d be legally responsible adults.

Besides, why assume this (confession) isn’t part of the current life already? No one said you should have to force them. My daughter, though younger than a teen, goes with my wife and I, and her younger siblings attend with us outside the confessional. Is that forcing?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Whether religious education is “forced” depends on the child and the situation. In my case, I was happy going to the Catholic school, generally liked the school and my classmates, did not wish to go to the public school, never asked my mother to remove me, and when it came time for high school, requested to go to the Catholic high school rather than the public one because I felt the public one was too big and too much questionable stuff going on that I at age 14 didn’t feel ready to handle or be around (drugs, girls wearing revealing clothing to school, etc. ) I’m sure there were other kids in my class who were forced to go to the Catholic school, and in some cases their behavior showed that they didn’t want to be there.

In the case of the confession scenario, a couple of parents on here indicated that they would rush the kid to confession immediately and tell them they needed to confess flipping the bird to the teacher. This to me is forced if they haven’t even had a discussion with the kid about what happened and if the parent is basically telling the kid, “You sinned, young lady, and you’re going to go confess it RIGHT NOW.” You can justify it however you want but some kids are going to react badly to it. I did. If somebody else thinks it will work on their kid or doesn’t mind taking the chance on the kid developing an issue with confession, then it’s their life.

Now if the parent and kid discuss and kid is contrite and wants to go to confession, fine. If the confession is their regular Saturday family activity, then also fine - and I presume in that case the kid will decide what he or she wants to tell the priest about what happened that week. Hoosier Daddy indicated in a later post that it was a regular activity so it didn’t sound so much like a forced scenario.

I’m muting this thread now because to be honest it’s a little hard for me to keep having to discuss being made to go to confession. It’s an unpleasant memory long in the past but it was traumatic. It’s not a memory I want to have to keep dredging up and explaining to people who pooh pooh it. Writing about it causes me to remember it which causes me to have a mild panic response even now, decades later. Have a nice day.

 

[Lea101]

Besides, why assume this (confession) isn’t part of the current life already? No one said you should have to force them. My daughter, though younger than a teen, goes with my wife and I, and her younger siblings attend with us outside the confessional. Is that forcing?

I think there’s a difference in driving your family to confession (whoever that wants to confess will go, whoever that doesn’t want to can sit out and wait) and telling your child that she needs to confess a particular sin and bringing her there.

 

[EricF]

I grew up in an era where corporal punishment was used extensively, even in the schools. I had a classmate that would get it once a year, usually at the beginning. We all wondered if in Tim’s case, it was preventive maintenance.

 

[Lea101]

OK, but what if they DO know it is wrong and do NOT feel bad about it?

I mean, normally you would tell them why they should feel bad and at least make them apologise to the person. Imperfect contrition, lol.

Shaming like what you suggest with the grandparents can be very manipulative and can backfire.

Who do you think will say this/is currently saying this to many souls right now: “you’re a bad person. You let God down.” VS “you’ve done something wrong and you should correct it”

 

[laylow]

No authority figure, no matter the rank, should be held beyond scrutiny. Whether being flipped bird can be justified is another matter, but I personally believe there is cases when it absolutely can be.

I agree with the statements that say the real story needs to be investigated by conversation with both parties. I do not believe someone should be punished unjustifiably.

There are many things to unpack, here are a few:

Does a minor have the same “privileges” as their superior (in age)?

If you flip someone off, do you now open yourself up to being attacked (physically or verbally)?

If presumably the minor does not have the same privileges, where is the cut off line?

 

[JanetF]

Maybe the teacher deserved it.

What??? Even if the teacher said something hurtful, no one deserves to have the bird flipped at them. I’m agreeing with those who are suggesting some sort of consequences for the 10th grader. She knows why she did it. I do agree with TisBearself though about not forcing confession. She should be expected to go and apologize to her teacher, she could explain why to the teacher, but it’s unlikely the teacher will care at this time. That may be a conversation for another day.

While I don’t usually like generalizations about American, especially students, based on what I’ve seen and heard, I have to agree that they are not respectful enough toward adults. This is something that is taught at home, and some parents are not teaching this concept. AND I"M NOT REFERRING TO THE OP at all!

 

[GladTidings]

no one deserves to have the bird flipped at them.

I disagree completely. I’m not saying it was a good way to handle the situation, but some adults these days are using their “power and influence” over children liberally.

it’s unlikely the teacher will care at this time. That may be a conversation for another day.

I would hope they care.

they are not respectful enough toward adults.

I know what you mean, but it could be that this teacher has been very disrespectful to her. Somehow, I doubt the teacher was gently reminding the kids of the importance of confession when he/she was flipped off. There was some culpability on the teacher’s part.

I’ve seen kids get tape wrapped around their mouth and head because of talking too much, hands slapped with rulers, etc.

The instances of ADHD diagnoses, coupled with ignorance among teachers, plays a huge part in conflict in the classroom. The combination is a recipe for disaster.

As my friend used to say, “It takes two to Mango.” He wasn’t too swift.

 

[JanetF]

I disagree completely. I’m not saying it was a good way to handle the situation, but some adults these days are using their “power and influence” over children liberally.

That may be true, we don’t have enough details about what happened to make that judgment in this instance. I don’t think flipping the bird is appropriate, even if the teacher is abusing his/her power. The correct thing to do is to report the abuse to another teacher, her parents, etc. Not add gasoline to the fire.

it’s unlikely the teacher will care at this time. That may be a conversation for another day.

Of course, and after tempers have cooled, the teacher might want to know if there is something he/she did to provoke this immature behavior. At the time it happened? Not so much.

We don’t have enough information about this to know if the teacher did something to provoke the child, other than simply try to maintain order in his/her classroom. This could be an unruly child who is disruptive every day. The teacher could be a paragon of virtue who never loses her temper, etc. We simply don’t know enough to make that judgement. We only know that the child felt it was appropriate to use an obscene gesture toward an adult in front of witnesses. Such a gesture being used and no consequences diminishes the teacher’s authority in the classroom. Trust me, teenagers KNOW when a peer gets away with something like this and the lesson learned is not a positive one.

 

[Mary888]

Considering your daughter flipped at a religion teacher, @JohnStrachan, I would try to find out if she isn’t fancy with other opposing spiritualities. Does she still go to church with you?
My benchmate in high school entered a strange yoga cult and that is when her behavior radically changed. Parents figured something was up when, as advised by her gurus, she wasn’t keen on going to church anymore.
Maybe she flipped the bird as a symbol? Just saying.
She is in my prayers.

 

[Norseman82]

I guess a lot (if not most) of you were not taught by nuns?

Who do you think will say this/is currently saying this to many souls right now: “you’re a bad person. You let God down.” VS “you’ve done something wrong and you should correct it”

How different is that from the traditional “your sins nailed Jesus to the cross”?