My child is badly behaved at mass :(

[Serap]

My kids made it impossible to pay attention at Mass when they were two or three. It was just too long for them. We didn’t want to do the cry room thing, because the atmosphere in there was that church was a place to run around. Instead, we left them home until they were five, and then we went to the sit-in-front strategy. If they were good and could tell us something Father said in his homily, they got a treat. We also made sure that they had Sunday clothes that they were comfortable in and that they liked. They are now altar servers and often go to daily Mass by choice…no “treat” required.

I think it is good to go to Mass from the time you’re a babe in arms, but for some kids, it is better to choose your battles and wait until they settle down a bit. It comes down to what the parent thinks is within the child’s ability. If you ask them to do too much, they resent whatever it is that you’re insisting that they do.

This is what I am doing for my son. It’s too difficult with him and people judge me so badly b/c of his behaviour.

 

[NSFrame]

I would say just don’t take him to Mass. It is not fair to him, it is not fair to you, and it is not fair to your fellow parishoners. The Church does not require him to be at Mass at his age, and for good reason. In another few months or a year, you can re-assess the situation.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is what I am doing for my son. It’s too difficult with him and people judge me so badly b/c of his behaviour.

The people in our parish were great and would have been patient with whatever we decided to do, but I’m still glad we did what we did. There are definitely small children who start from the beginning and have no major problems, but once I saw that the choice was to have a constant battle or let them loose, I think we did the right thing.

 

[Serap]

The people in our parish were great and would have been patient with whatever we decided to do, but I’m still glad we did what we did. There are definitely small children who start from the beginning and have no major problems, but once I saw that the choice was to have a constant battle or let them loose, I think we did the right thing.

Same with my son…it would be a big battle where I would lose. I’m just not willing to fight this battle

I will wait until my dd is ready for Sunday school and my son will be 4 or 5 then. He will be much easier to manage by then.

 

[3DOCTORS]

For what it’s worth - this may be a helpful consideration - I thought of it because there is one little fellow at my parish that behaves as if he has had a triple espresso - :bounce:

so I was thinking, what if people were more aware to give the child foods that have calming properties before taking them to Mass? Such as milk, foods with higher tryptophan levels, and be sure not to give them sweets or caffeined drinks - I mean, probably most parents are aware not to give them Jolt Cola or whatnot, but sometimes there are foods that are more stimulating than others.

Just my :twocents: worth on the “popping” thing - and it doesn’t sound like it’s out of hand or abusive, but I’d be hesitant to have my child associate Mass-going with getting spanked; that would seem to make it an unpleasant memory, and I would think a positive association would be what you’d want to cultivate.

 

[EasterJoy]

For what it’s worth - this may be a helpful consideration - I thought of it because there is one little fellow at my parish that behaves as if he has had a triple espresso - :bounce:

so I was thinking, what if people were more aware to give the child foods that have calming properties before taking them to Mass? Such as milk, foods with higher tryptophan levels, and be sure not to give them sweets or caffeined drinks - I mean, probably most parents are aware not to give them Jolt Cola or whatnot, but sometimes there are foods that are more stimulating than others.

Just my :twocents: worth on the “popping” thing - and it doesn’t sound like it’s out of hand or abusive, but I’d be hesitant to have my child associate Mass-going with getting spanked; that would seem to make it an unpleasant memory, and I would think a positive association would be what you’d want to cultivate.

Yes, before giving up on Mass, definitely try different times of day and making sure the child is fed and rested appropriately. I call that setting up the child to succeed. Having said that, just as there are kids who aren’t ready for first grade when their peers are, there are kids who aren’t ready to sit still through Mass when their peers are.

As for punishment and reward, I think it better to associate some particular reward or pleasant activity with going to Mass, and only those who are ready to go to Mass get to do it. Losing out on a privelege that that grown-ups get is a reasonable consequence of choosing not to behave. I think that is much better than an arrangement where failing to worship correctly brings on pain. Even for a child who is otherwise accustomed to corporal punishment (which has its place in some but not all families, but let’s not go there except to say that I’m not opposed to all corporal punishment under any circumstance), the mixed signals of the latter arrangment just don’t cut it, IMHO.

 

[jilly4ski]

Yes, before giving up on Mass, definitely try different times of day and making sure the child is fed and rested appropriately. I call that setting up the child to succeed. Having said that, just as there are kids who aren’t ready for first grade when their peers are, there are kids who aren’t ready to sit still through Mass when their peers are.

As for punishment and reward, I think it better to associate some particular reward or pleasant activity with going to Mass, and only those who are ready to go to Mass get to do it. Losing out on a privelege that that grown-ups get is a reasonable consequence of choosing not to behave. I think that is much better than an arrangement where failing to worship correctly brings on pain. Even for a child who is otherwise accustomed to corporal punishment (which has its place in some but not all families, but let’s not go there except to say that I’m not opposed to all corporal punishment under any circumstance), the mixed signals of the latter arrangment just don’t cut it, IMHO.

While, I agree, I find a 2 year old has a difficult time with the concept of rewards. They are too far in the future for a 2 year old. Immediate rewards yes, having to sit still and behave for an hour and get a reward at the end is very difficult for a 2 year old to understand (in my experience of my very well behaved 2 year old). My 2 year old even forgets that he gets M&Ms if we uses the toilet and stays dry.

When my first was ~1.5 we let him play with a rosary during Mass (the old lady behind us thought it was so cute). We would hold on to him and one end of the rosary (so it couldn’t go flying), and it would occupy him for a good chunk of Mass. Now at 2 he likes to bring me a rosary and sit next to me while we pray a decade. (He says a few words of the prayers if I stop and let him “fill in the blanks”). But we also tried board books and soft toys, but the rosary seemed to work the best for him.

 

[Joan_M]

I’m sorry, but watching my kids, and other peoples kids that are in this age range I would completely disagree with that. Like I said earlier I have personally seen both of my kids purposefully look at me and do something they know they’re no supposed to do. My daughter will actually take off running because she knows she’s about to be in trouble. She has learned that in stores if she’s walking instead of riding in the cart and I tell her to stop and she doesn’t then she gets placed (usually while screaming) into the cart and buckled in for a time-out. Now she stops 95% of the time when I tell her to (though she is two and sometimes she just does it anyway…) If she knows she’ll be in time-out if she doens’t stop as asked, then obviously she has related the undesired time-out with not listening.

I totally agree with you! When he was 2, my youngest son (39 later this month!!) was in the living room of our apartment and I was in the kitchen. I “heard” the total silence from the living room, and, knowing that trouble was likely, walked as silently and quickly as possible towards the silence… Unfortunately, I stepped on a creaky board and saw the dash and dive onto the couch, which was visible from where I was. My son dived onto the couch, face down, and buried his head in his arms - he was fast asleep, so he could not have done anything!! When I came into the room, I found that a number of my good Waterford crystal goblets were standing in a row on the floor… No damage, but that boy knew very well that he had no business touching those shiny things. I hadn’t known that he was able to open the cupboard they had been in.

It was very, very difficult to keep my face serious when I addressed the situation. After, I had to go into my bedroom, shut the door, and let out the laugh!

Of course they do not have a proper sense of sin, but know very well that what they are doing is not what Mum or Dad would allow or approve of. After all, no one just wakes up one morning with the knowledge of right and wrong. Each day brings some small development in reasoning.

 

[rhiannonh]

Eventually they all grow up…become teenagers…

argue about what they are allowed to wear to church…

who slouch into Mass…

who fall asleep during the homily…

who manage to project their attitude even during prayer…

Embarrassment of a different kind…

and that child could be next bishop, or priest… just go with the flow and don 't force children or teens to do anything they don’t want to do. please dont make them go to church. they only stop going the minute they can so why prolong it. what right do adults have to enforce anything especially onto teens. Let them be. If they don’t want to go this week, don’t make them. why do they need to go just to keep you happy?

 

[Serap]

I totally agree with you! When he was 2, my youngest son (39 later this month!!) was in the living room of our apartment and I was in the kitchen. I “heard” the total silence from the living room, and, knowing that trouble was likely, walked as silently and quickly as possible towards the silence… Unfortunately, I stepped on a creaky board and saw the dash and dive onto the couch, which was visible from where I was. My son dived onto the couch, face down, and buried his head in his arms - he was fast asleep, so he could not have done anything!! When I came into the room, I found that a number of my good Waterford crystal goblets were standing in a row on the floor… No damage, but that boy knew very well that he had no business touching those shiny things. I hadn’t known that he was able to open the cupboard they had been in.

It was very, very difficult to keep my face serious when I addressed the situation. After, I had to go into my bedroom, shut the door, and let out the laugh!

Of course they do not have a proper sense of sin, but know very well that what they are doing is not what Mum or Dad would allow or approve of. After all, no one just wakes up one morning with the knowledge of right and wrong. Each day brings some small development in reasoning.

cute!

 

[cemiller]

I totally agree with you! When he was 2, my youngest son (39 later this month!!) was in the living room of our apartment and I was in the kitchen. I “heard” the total silence from the living room, and, knowing that trouble was likely, walked as silently and quickly as possible towards the silence… Unfortunately, I stepped on a creaky board and saw the dash and dive onto the couch, which was visible from where I was. My son dived onto the couch, face down, and buried his head in his arms - he was fast asleep, so he could not have done anything!! When I came into the room, I found that a number of my good Waterford crystal goblets were standing in a row on the floor… No damage, but that boy knew very well that he had no business touching those shiny things. I hadn’t known that he was able to open the cupboard they had been in.

It was very, very difficult to keep my face serious when I addressed the situation. After, I had to go into my bedroom, shut the door, and let out the laugh!

Of course they do not have a proper sense of sin, but know very well that what they are doing is not what Mum or Dad would allow or approve of. After all, no one just wakes up one morning with the knowledge of right and wrong. Each day brings some small development in reasoning.

lmbo, that’s good stuff. Both of my children at least give me the warning sign of complete silence when they are doing something they know they are going to get in trouble for… lol I guess we should be thankful that they haven’t figured out that we know what the silence means, I don’t even think my 7 y/o son has figured that out yet… I have caught both of my children doing things that have pushed my ability to hold in a giggle to the limits. You know you still have to disipline them for doing something wrong, but MAN it’s tough not to laugh sometimes…

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

You can not reason with a child under the age of three. And, it is not misbehavior at age 2 1/2. And, smacking a child of 2 is abuse to me. It is totally unnecessary to hit a child.

I would have a sitter and go to church without toddler.

Personally, I feel most children will not sit still until the age of 6 or 7.

Just curious,
If you saw a parent “smack”, spank, etc. a child on the rear end during Mass would you call the police or social services? Since you see it as abuse…

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

I’ve been doing a lot of research b/c my son is so difficult and I think she’s right…children under 3 don’t misbehave…they are not able to correlate cause and effect. I am learning this myself.

That’s why they say remove and distract at age 2.

I respectfully disagree. In a certain regard.

Baby cries…mommy feeds
Baby cries…mommy pickups

Toddler screams …mommy comes running
Toddler sees food, doesn’t get. toddler screams …mommy gives food
Toddler sees toy. doesn’t get. toddler screams…mommy gets toy.

Toddler does NOT will not sit still, Toddler SCREAMS. Mommy pickup toddler.
Toddler (Not good enough mommy) toddler SCREAM LOUDER! …Mommy take toddler outside, love and feed.

Who’s training who

Oh yes they may not be “Misbehaving” But they darn sure know what they are doing!!!

What you tolerate, is what you encourage.

Save yourself, take the child to daily Mass, Whack him on the rear “BEFORE” Mass.

You take charge and “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6

 

[Serap]

Just curious,
If you saw a parent “smack”, spank, etc. a child on the rear end during Mass would you call the police or social services? Since you see it as abuse…

Many spanking advocates say that spanking under age 3 is inappropriate.

I am not calling it abuse. I have smacked my son’s hand, so I would be a hypocrite if I did. I feel bad for doing it and am looking at other ways to teach my son right from wrong.

 

[Serap]

I respectfully disagree. In a certain regard.

Baby cries…mommy feeds
Baby cries…mommy pickups

Toddler screams …mommy comes running
Toddler sees food, doesn’t get. toddler screams …mommy gives food
Toddler sees toy. doesn’t get. toddler screams…mommy gets toy.

Toddler does NOT will not sit still, Toddler SCREAMS. Mommy pickup toddler.
Toddler (Not good enough mommy) toddler SCREAM LOUDER! …Mommy take toddler outside, love and feed.

Who’s training who

Oh yes they may not be “Misbehaving” But they darn sure know what they are doing!!!

What you tolerate, is what you encourage.

Save yourself, take the child to daily Mass, Whack him on the rear “BEFORE” Mass.

You take charge and “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6

I suggest you open up a new topic on CAF and we can debate it there.

 

[EasterJoy]

While, I agree, I find a 2 year old has a difficult time with the concept of rewards. They are too far in the future for a 2 year old. Immediate rewards yes, having to sit still and behave for an hour and get a reward at the end is very difficult for a 2 year old to understand (in my experience of my very well behaved 2 year old). My 2 year old even forgets that he gets M&Ms if we uses the toilet and stays dry.

When my first was ~1.5 we let him play with a rosary during Mass (the old lady behind us thought it was so cute). We would hold on to him and one end of the rosary (so it couldn’t go flying), and it would occupy him for a good chunk of Mass. Now at 2 he likes to bring me a rosary and sit next to me while we pray a decade. (He says a few words of the prayers if I stop and let him “fill in the blanks”). But we also tried board books and soft toys, but the rosary seemed to work the best for him.

Yes, with 2 year olds, consequences need to be immediate. The trick is to see the situation, the expectations, and the consequences from the viewpoint of a particular child. For instance, some two year olds will act up in church not because they don’t have the capacity to be quiet, but because being quiet is boring and getting taken out of church gets them time to run around and have fun enjoying the total attention of their parent. The flip side of that, though, is that if a child is being asked to do what is beyond his capacity, then a lot of kids will take the course that “I may as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb”…that is, I can’t win here, so I’m at least going down on my terms! On that account, it is very important to choose a level of expectation at which the child has some hope of pleasing you.

If you find yourself going the course of not expecting behavior from your child that others of his age can accomplish, I really think it is worth having a one or more month time out from allowing the child to go to Mass before re-trying, after which the child is re-introduced with higher expectations. I think you need to be careful to do this in such a way that the child doesn’t feel he or she is gaining anything from staying home. Rather, you keep them in the mindset that participating at Mass is a capacity that they ought to look forward to having.

This is like deciding whether or not your child can sleep through the night, when they need to give up diapers, and that kind of thing. Obviously, the sooner you can get your child to behave through Mass with some kind of positive view of the experience, the better for everyone involved.

As was pointed out on another thread, it is possible to use other activities not done in public–home recitation of the rosary, for example, or even sitting on your lap through a talking heads TV show–to judge what your child’s capacities are when it comes to being quiet during an activity that doesn’t revolve around entertaining them, as well as a practice field for developing those capacities outside the context where consequences that come from his or her refusal to comply is going to be associated with going to Mass.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

I suggest you open up a new topic on CAF and we can debate it there.

No debate needed, I know what works and what doesn’t. Many of our friends have large families as well. I’m talking an average of 7+ kids per family. About 6 years ago a mom who only had 4 or 5 kids at the time asked us (my wife), how we were able to get our kids to behave so well at Mass (ALL of them). My wife explained the daily Mass “practise”. She would take them and if they misbehaved, out to the foyer. “pat-pat” wipe maybe a tear or two. Wow, behaved the rest of Mass.

The mom exclaimed OH! I could never “pat-pat” little johnny. Dr. Spock says “Bla-bla-bla” Thank-you but no thanks.

Today,
RUCKUS Then,
Dr. Spock Mommy disappears with Johnny’s little brother (Jack) at the begining of Mass firmly holding his hand. Before the first reading, Mommy and little Jack are back in there pew, mommy is smiling and NO RUCKUS!

All is well.
Impressive, Most Impressive! You are more powerful than the emperor has forseen…

 

[mini_me640]

Save yourself, take the child to daily Mass, Whack him on the rear “BEFORE” Mass.

You take charge and “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6

Are you actually advocating spanking a child for no particular offense before Mass just to “show him who’s boss”? Please tell me I’m misunderstanding you.

 

[cemiller]

No debate needed, I know what works and what doesn’t. Many of our friends have large families as well. I’m talking an average of 7+ kids per family. About 6 years ago a mom who only had 4 or 5 kids at the time asked us (my wife), how we were able to get our kids to behave so well at Mass (ALL of them). My wife explained the daily Mass “practise”. She would take them and if they misbehaved, out to the foyer. “pat-pat” wipe maybe a tear or two. Wow, behaved the rest of Mass.

The mom exclaimed OH! I could never “pat-pat” little johnny. Dr. Spock says “Bla-bla-bla” Thank-you but no thanks.

Today,
RUCKUS Then,
Dr. Spock Mommy disappears with Johnny’s little brother (Jack) at the begining of Mass firmly holding his hand. Before the first reading, Mommy and little Jack are back in there pew, mommy is smiling and NO RUCKUS!

All is well.
Impressive, Most Impressive! You are more powerful than the emperor has forseen…

I agree with spanking when needed for correction, but that’s not to say you HAVE to spank. Look at the Dougars, I’m led to believe that she has never spanked any of her kids, and they all seem well behaved… I think it really has to do with the kids and the parents. Like I’ve said before, some things work with some kids and others don’t. The main problem here is that there was a hard push to demonize spanking and any parent that would use that particular mode of disipline, but the bottom line is that it has worked for 1000’s of years and will continue to work till Christ comes again.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

Are you actually advocating spanking a child for no particular offense before Mass just to “show him who’s boss”? Please tell me I’m misunderstanding you.

I was waiting for someone to pick up on that.

Look, I’m not saying to do that in every single circumstance so don’t overreact. Every parent that has spanked a child knows the difference between actually inflicting pain and a whack to bring the child to “Focus”. That is what we have had to do with “ONE” of our children. She (when she was around 4 yrs old) was very stuborn and hardheaded. So a whack, hard enough to get her attention but not enough to inflict any real pain. You may find it hard to believe, but when this was done, it only took two or three times and she got it. In her mind it was, behave after this “Warning shot over the bow” or something else is coming. After that she did fine. No more spanking of any kind. Problem solved.

btw, it has been “YEARS” since we have had to spank a child for mis-behaving in Mass. Even when it was done, it was the exception rather than the norm. Siblings tend to follow siblings, if all are behaving (which 99% of the time they behave) it doesn’t happen.