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- Status
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why_me
Guest
What about the thread that I linked to at MADb? It seems kinda friendly to me. Not the slam, bash, dunk that mormons get here.
mormonapologetics.org/ind…pic=40414&st=0
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why_me
Guest
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BartBurk
Guest
Here we go with the Jesus was a brother of Satan criticism again. Non-Mormons pull that out of the air to make Mormons sound bad and they use it without any context or real understanding of what the Mormons believe regarding that. They don’t try to explain the Mormon belief in pre-existence which makes the whole issue a lot clearer.
Mormons don’t believe that angels are a separate creature from humans as traditional Christianity does. Everyone with a spirit is a child of God and Mormons believe these spirits were created prior to our conception in the womb. It was a requirement to have to be born in the pre-existence as a spirit to prepare to come to earth. These spirits were created by God out of intelligence. So all of us existed from all eternity as intelligence, went through a spiritual birth to get ready to come to earth and then were born physically. The Father’s plan was that Jesus would come to earth as His Only Begotten Son, be born of a virgin, pay for our sins and then rise from the dead to bring the resurrection to everyone. Satan and his followers rebelled against the Father and Jesus and are denied the opportunity to ever gain a physical body. This entire belief doesn’t deny anything about the Godhead of Jesus. In fact these beliefs were first held in the early 1830s when the Mormons still accepted a very traditional view of the Trinity before Joseph Smith had said anything about God having a father, etc. Essentially, the traditional Mormon belief is that Satan rebelled against the plan of the Godhead which included Christ.
I’m a Catholic convert from Mormonism, but the distortion of the Mormon doctrine by many non-Mormons of the relationship between Christ and Satan is appalling. If my brother was a mass murderer it would say nothing about me. The early Mormon doctrine was that Christ had always been God prior to receiving a physical spirit. Mormons believe spirits are made of what can best be described as spiritual matter. Their understanding of intelligence is closest to what Catholics would call pure spirit. There are some Mormons who would still say that Christ had always been God as an intelligence. It wasn’t until the King Follet sermon that many strange Mormon beliefs developed regarding the Godhead. I look forward to the day when Mormons will get back to a traditional understanding of the Trinity – I don’t really think it would be a very huge jump for them to do so. They are closer to traditional Christianity than many of us want to admit, but until they get rid of the King Follet beliefs they won’t ever be fully accepted.
Mormons don’t believe that angels are a separate creature from humans as traditional Christianity does. Everyone with a spirit is a child of God and Mormons believe these spirits were created prior to our conception in the womb. It was a requirement to have to be born in the pre-existence as a spirit to prepare to come to earth. These spirits were created by God out of intelligence. So all of us existed from all eternity as intelligence, went through a spiritual birth to get ready to come to earth and then were born physically. The Father’s plan was that Jesus would come to earth as His Only Begotten Son, be born of a virgin, pay for our sins and then rise from the dead to bring the resurrection to everyone. Satan and his followers rebelled against the Father and Jesus and are denied the opportunity to ever gain a physical body. This entire belief doesn’t deny anything about the Godhead of Jesus. In fact these beliefs were first held in the early 1830s when the Mormons still accepted a very traditional view of the Trinity before Joseph Smith had said anything about God having a father, etc. Essentially, the traditional Mormon belief is that Satan rebelled against the plan of the Godhead which included Christ.
I’m a Catholic convert from Mormonism, but the distortion of the Mormon doctrine by many non-Mormons of the relationship between Christ and Satan is appalling. If my brother was a mass murderer it would say nothing about me. The early Mormon doctrine was that Christ had always been God prior to receiving a physical spirit. Mormons believe spirits are made of what can best be described as spiritual matter. Their understanding of intelligence is closest to what Catholics would call pure spirit. There are some Mormons who would still say that Christ had always been God as an intelligence. It wasn’t until the King Follet sermon that many strange Mormon beliefs developed regarding the Godhead. I look forward to the day when Mormons will get back to a traditional understanding of the Trinity – I don’t really think it would be a very huge jump for them to do so. They are closer to traditional Christianity than many of us want to admit, but until they get rid of the King Follet beliefs they won’t ever be fully accepted.
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BartBurk
Guest
I have to admit that I don’t get too excited about all of these debates about whether or not Mormons are Christians. It’s not really a debate about anything useful. The only debate that matters to me is whether Joseph Smith’s story about receiving gold plates and translating the Book of Mormon is true. If that story is true than Mormonism is not only Christian, it is the only true Christianity out there. After years of praying and studying about that, I sadly had to come to the conclusion that Mormonism was not true no matter how much Christianity it may profess. Mormonism makes extraordinary claims about the Book of Mormon and other Mormon scriptures which have proven unreliable. The Mormon folks may live wonderful lives and believe that Jesus died for their sins (and he did), but their tale is simply without merit. There is simply no evidence that any ancient Americans followed Christianity or came from the Middle East. Even if that evidence were provided it would not prove the Book of Mormon tale, but it would at least give it some credibility. I have found the Catholic Church, even with the failure of many of its people to live up to its witness, to be the church with the most solid foundation and best claim of maintaining historic Christianity. I suggest that our Mormon friends here give it a better hearing than they usually do – most of them usually do no more than swallow the Evangelical Protestant caricature of the Catholic Church. A fair reading of the Book of Mormon’s caricature of 19th century Christianity definitely does no more than reflect the frontier Protestant view of the Catholic Church, a view which often ends up with Evangelical Christians labeling Catholics as non-Christian. Catholicism is much richer than the picture generally presented by Mormons and Evangelical Protestants. As a Mormon missionary in a Latin American country I preferred the distorted picture of Catholicism to the truth. I’m glad I was rescued from it.
Stephen168
New member
As a kid I was told that ‘Puritans’ were people that wanted to purify the Church of England from anything Catholic. I thought, ‘At what point is so much removed that they are no long Christian?’ I didn’t have an answer then but….
I now believe it is the rejection of who God is; the trinity. It also seems to me that the rejection of who Christ is can be symbolized by the rejection of the cross. As an outsider looking in, I also think it happened at the King Follet discourse
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look3467
Guest
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
If, Christ makes us free, the object becomes bondage.
The question is, what bondage is it spoken of?
To belong to an institution whose structured requirements of its adherents is to keep them in bondage, can not be at the same time freedom to worship God from the heart for the restraints.
I am free in Christ from all man made restraints, and am obligated to no one institution, but to the assembly of believers, which is the church.
In this assembly of believers there is no head but Christ, an therefore, all are equally in one spirit without discrimination.
Man made requirements that contribute to binding believers, is to again return to bondage of which Christ has made us free of.
An individual who is a practicing, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon and or any other belief system does so at their own pearl.
To seek God on a personal level intimately, one has to but first acknowledge the gift of life, for all eternity by Jesus, the Son of God, and in whom rests all things, and of which freedom is granted from all binding requirements f mankind.
Freedom, Paul says, is not to be abused as for personal gain, but to further the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to a hurting and dying world.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
If, we are bound, we cannot be free to convey the message without requiring the other to comply with our own bondage.
Paul speak to that issue: 1Cr 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man’s] conscience?
Why require the other to comply with our own conscience, for in so doing, we are binding them, placing on them our own constraints of our own beliefs.
I would rather present the Glorious Gospel of Christ in word and deed, and allow others to make their own judgments as to its validity.
Hence, my liberty in Christs liberates, and respects others to choose their own mode of worship.
If my liberty demonstrates what God is really all about, I need say not a word, for my actions will testify of me.
And, may I add that one’s demonstration of Christ’s liberty is born from the inside out, and genuine.
I am like Paul in this respect: 1Cr 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.
Peace>>>AJ
If, Christ makes us free, the object becomes bondage.
The question is, what bondage is it spoken of?
To belong to an institution whose structured requirements of its adherents is to keep them in bondage, can not be at the same time freedom to worship God from the heart for the restraints.
I am free in Christ from all man made restraints, and am obligated to no one institution, but to the assembly of believers, which is the church.
In this assembly of believers there is no head but Christ, an therefore, all are equally in one spirit without discrimination.
Man made requirements that contribute to binding believers, is to again return to bondage of which Christ has made us free of.
An individual who is a practicing, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon and or any other belief system does so at their own pearl.
To seek God on a personal level intimately, one has to but first acknowledge the gift of life, for all eternity by Jesus, the Son of God, and in whom rests all things, and of which freedom is granted from all binding requirements f mankind.
Freedom, Paul says, is not to be abused as for personal gain, but to further the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to a hurting and dying world.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
If, we are bound, we cannot be free to convey the message without requiring the other to comply with our own bondage.
Paul speak to that issue: 1Cr 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man’s] conscience?
Why require the other to comply with our own conscience, for in so doing, we are binding them, placing on them our own constraints of our own beliefs.
I would rather present the Glorious Gospel of Christ in word and deed, and allow others to make their own judgments as to its validity.
Hence, my liberty in Christs liberates, and respects others to choose their own mode of worship.
If my liberty demonstrates what God is really all about, I need say not a word, for my actions will testify of me.
And, may I add that one’s demonstration of Christ’s liberty is born from the inside out, and genuine.
I am like Paul in this respect: 1Cr 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.
Peace>>>AJ
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clarioncall
Guest
cultwatch.com/mormon.html
And Also.
The Bible v.s. the Book of Mormon
perishnot.com/node/16
And DNA v.s. The Book of Mormon
perishnot.com/node/23
This cult is so like witch craft. I has read a website that had shown the various symbols which were said to be of witchcraft origin(or so I was told) ,and none of those were of biblical origin.It just stunning what garbs are employed by the enemy . And may have been fooled.
And Also.
The Bible v.s. the Book of Mormon
perishnot.com/node/16
And DNA v.s. The Book of Mormon
perishnot.com/node/23
This cult is so like witch craft. I has read a website that had shown the various symbols which were said to be of witchcraft origin(or so I was told) ,and none of those were of biblical origin.It just stunning what garbs are employed by the enemy . And may have been fooled.
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dianaiad
Guest
You are quite right. You are an adult, participating in a debate between adults, and you made a claim. I’m asking you to back it up with the reference. Like a grownup.
Again; you made the claim, you back it up. I couldn’t get away with what you are trying, y’know. I feel that your wiggling here is a tad, oh, ‘double standard-y’, don’t you?
Actually, that’s fine. The problem is, if you are too tired and bored to support your assertions, then you shouldn’t make them. You will be called on them, and then if you are too tired and bored to back them up, well…
That’s not a really good position to be in.
For instance, yesterday I was called on a statement I made about how Jewish men were not allowed to read in the synagogue unless they were married in Jesus’ time. I was called on it.
Took me aback, that did–I had heard it several times from several people, but when Roger said no, and insisted that I was incorrect on that, I had to go find the source.
Couldn’t do it. Didn’t find one. The closest I came was an article about how at that time it WAS expected that young men be married, but that there were exceptions for those who were scholars of the Law (though eventually even they were expected to marry) and a cite on “Jewish 101” that emphasized the importance of marriage, perhaps especially to a Rabbi, or scholar of the Law. I had to apologize to Roger, and I learned a new thing.
Now Roger doesn’t quite know what to do when someone actually finds out that she can’t support her claim, admits it and apologizes.
The point is, I don’t demand anything of you that I am not willing to do myself…and one of those things is that if you aren’t willing to provide the proof of a claim, then don’t make it in the first place. If you make it, and cannot, or will not, support it, then don’t weasel out of it.
Fine. Until you feel able to look through all the “Christians-are-apostate postings” to find the proof of your claim that we believe that you aren’t 'true Christians" (remember, you put the phrase in quotes. I want the quotes.) then kindly do not claim that we believe that.
Because I certainly do not believe that Catholics are not “true Christians.”
Do we believe that there was an apostasy? Of course we do. If we didn’t, we would be Catholic (Or Eastern Orthodox…one of those, anyway). It is inherent in our very existence. It is also inherent in the very existence of Protestant faiths that THEY believe the same thing about Catholicism–or they wouldn’t be trying to ‘fix’ it. They are “protesting” what they see as apostate doctrines and practices.
Catholics, too, have acknowledged apostasy in their own ranks, and have done some things to fix it. Look at Indulgences: the abuse of indulgences was rampant in the church at one time. The church itself actually employed men to sell them; that was their job. (Read Chaucer some time; these guys were a primary target of his satire)
In fact, those abuses were one of the primary reasons Luther protested. The church has since cleaned up the process and understanding of them…and even your church officials admit that, while the idea of ‘indulgence’ is doctrine, the abuses of the idea by the clergy was, well…apostate.
So apostasy happens, and the Catholics are aware of, and attempt to fix, it whenever it crops up.
All this because I asked you to back up an accusation YOU made?
Rebecca, I love irony, but this is too much even for me.
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dianaiad
Guest
That’s a rather odd thing to say when the quote I came back with was a rather nasty anti-Catholic statement from a Mormon–that the moderators shut down.
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Jerusha
Guest
I sooo agree with you!!!
(ROTFL edited out so as not to irritate)
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dianaballein
Guest
I’m still chuckling about the Mrs. Beaver reference. LOL Who is Mrs. Beaver???
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dianaiad
Guest
Obviously well before your time, luv;
A TV program called “leave it to Beaver,” where June Cleaver, mom and housewife, always wore pearls and high heels no matter what she was doing; scrubbing the floor, cooking, telling Ward Cleaver what an idiot he was (nicely, of course) …
It was a slam.
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majick275
Guest
JS-H
*19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” *
i sometimes wonder if Mormons know what this means.
this is canonized scripture that pretty much says all other churches are wrong and thus could certainly be construed as “not true Christians”. but from a catholic perspective it’s even worse. our profession of faith is an integral part of the mass so when the creed is declared an ABOMINATION!!! that’s about as bad as it gets. but this goes even further it says that all of us who profess it are corrupt. this includes methodists, presbyterians, anglicans and all who profess the creeds.
i find it ironic that the specifics it lists for our “corruption” seem to apply so aptly to the LDS church.
*19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” *
i sometimes wonder if Mormons know what this means.
this is canonized scripture that pretty much says all other churches are wrong and thus could certainly be construed as “not true Christians”. but from a catholic perspective it’s even worse. our profession of faith is an integral part of the mass so when the creed is declared an ABOMINATION!!! that’s about as bad as it gets. but this goes even further it says that all of us who profess it are corrupt. this includes methodists, presbyterians, anglicans and all who profess the creeds.
i find it ironic that the specifics it lists for our “corruption” seem to apply so aptly to the LDS church.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
dianaiad:
It is you who is weaseling out of what your own church teaches. Is this ignorance? Naivete? Or a deception?
Mormons teach that all Christians are in apostasy. That the Mormon church is where true Christianity is found. You can twist that all you like, but the fact remains, you can’t make these claims while at the same time telling us that we HAVE to accept the heresies and errors of Mormonism as Christian truth.
The Christianity you believe in is defined by Mormonism. No Christian religion in the world, none, accept your definitions. Yet, Mormons cry and whine constantly that you don’t have to accept our definitions. As I said, this is a hypocrisy.
Here is what a “True Christian” believes, as stated by your leaders at LDS.org:
Here: The first restored truth that I learned was the nature of the Godhead. The true Christian doctrine that the Godhead consists of three separate beings was known in biblical times.
Here: I am grateful to the Lord for you members of the Church who desire to share the wealth of the gospel of Jesus Christ with your family and friends. Not only are you becoming rich toward God, but you are making other lives rich also. You are giving them the true Christian religion.
2007 General Conference talk by Jeffery Holland.
%between%"A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God. To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity? Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that. "
There are more but that should satisfy your demands.
Ready. Set. Spin.
It is you who is weaseling out of what your own church teaches. Is this ignorance? Naivete? Or a deception?
Mormons teach that all Christians are in apostasy. That the Mormon church is where true Christianity is found. You can twist that all you like, but the fact remains, you can’t make these claims while at the same time telling us that we HAVE to accept the heresies and errors of Mormonism as Christian truth.
The Christianity you believe in is defined by Mormonism. No Christian religion in the world, none, accept your definitions. Yet, Mormons cry and whine constantly that you don’t have to accept our definitions. As I said, this is a hypocrisy.
Here is what a “True Christian” believes, as stated by your leaders at LDS.org:
Here: The first restored truth that I learned was the nature of the Godhead. The true Christian doctrine that the Godhead consists of three separate beings was known in biblical times.
Here: I am grateful to the Lord for you members of the Church who desire to share the wealth of the gospel of Jesus Christ with your family and friends. Not only are you becoming rich toward God, but you are making other lives rich also. You are giving them the true Christian religion.
2007 General Conference talk by Jeffery Holland.
%between%"A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God. To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity? Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that. "
There are more but that should satisfy your demands.
Ready. Set. Spin.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
“You are giving them the true Christian religion.”
The majority of Mormon converts were Christians (Catholic or Protestant) before their conversions. There is no need to convert to Christ people who are already Christian.
The majority of Mormon converts were Christians (Catholic or Protestant) before their conversions. There is no need to convert to Christ people who are already Christian.
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dianaiad
Guest
Yes. We teach of the Great Apostasy, and that Catholics and Protestants (and everybody who isn’t us) is a part of that. But “true Christianity” has nothing to do with that. I’m going to call you on this one; show me a quote saying that nobody but Mormons are 'true Christians."
Your problem is that you keep defining “Christian” as “saved,” or “correct.” It doesn’t mean that. “True” Christians may believe all sorts of things. They aren’t all correct. They aren’t all wrong.
Our position is that you are Christian, and we are Christian. You have some truth, we have more. Some of the things you believe are incorrect–and if we differ in our beliefs about something, then we are right and you are wrong.
This is something that every believer had BETTER think about his own faith; if not, he is a hypocrite and had better find a belief system that better matches his own opinions about things. Either that, or he’d better change his mind and march along with his professed faith.
Actually, “Christianity” is a word. It’s an English word. As such, I go by the book that lists the definition of English words; the dictionary.
Why in the world would I accept your definition of “Christian?”
Hmm. He’s saying that no “true Christian” (emphasis yours) would deny the birth. life, death and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.
What do you think…would a ‘true Christian’ deny these things?
While I personally have a problem with his use of “true Christian” in ANY context, I was caught by his argument; he is claiming that one of the reasons we are excluded from Christianity is that we believe God has a physical body…and then he goes on to say that all Christians believe that He does, if they believe that Christ is God.
I think it’s delicious, personally, turning the ‘true Christian’ charge around on you guys.
Thank you for giving me the cite. I appreciate it.
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dianaiad
Guest
Then I suspect that the Catholic church will hereby cease accepting converts from Protestant faiths immediately.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
You are demanding something cease that doesn’t exist.
We have no missionaries who are teaching Christians. All of our missionary efforts are to bring non-Christians to Christ.
The majority of Protestants are baptized Christians. Unity is the desire of the Catholic Church. We welcome home the people who return to the Catholic faith.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
You can read it there dianaid. Who are the true Christians?
Yes, and I will repeat again for you. You are wrong.
What in the world are you talking about?
If you believe Christianity is nothing more than a word, then indeed you are not Christian.
And why in the world would we accept the Mormon definition of “Christian”?
As usual, taken out of context. Is this something Mormon are born with or what?
His entire speech is about how the Christian Trinity is incorrect. And he bases his entire conclusion on MORMON ERROR. He cites nothing that a CHRISTIAN believes about God. Only what he would like the sheep to believe.
Which, apparently works because here you are, being a good believer of assertions that have absolute nothing to do with TRUTH.
Thanks for keeping it swell.
- Status