My Spiritual Journey

[beckyann2597]

Which Bible timeline did you get Jeff? Sounds interesting…Just hearing “timeline” reminded me of this link that I saved because I thought it was cool…
home.adelphia.net/~annunciation/Churchhistory.pdf

Talk to you soon–Rebecca

 

[Edwin1961]

jbsmith:

I’ve been keeping this to myself for a few days, but I’ve decided to post my experience here.

My Baptist friends and acquaintances have been attacking the Catholic faith rather hard for a while. I have to admit I’m not an expert on the faith, and some of there claims are rather convincing. I simply don’t know many times how to refute them, so I don’t say much of anything. I even went to a Baptist church with three of them about three weeks ago. (It was awful. It was dry, cold, and dead. I didn’t sense the Spirit of the Lord at all the entire time I was there.)

Friday night this was weighing heavily on my mind. Before I went to bed, I prayed. I asked God to communicate with me and tell me which church was right, and which one He wanted me to join. Early Sometime during the night, I woke up. When I woke up, I could have sworn I smelled roses. (There are no roses in my house or anywhere nearby outside.) The rose scent lasted for a while. I know this because I was awake in bed for a while before I went back to sleep. The scent was still strong in my room when I went back to sleep. When I woke up Saturday morning, the smell was gone. I mentioned this because I’ve read that when Mary visits someone, she sometimes leaves the scent of roses behind. Is that true?

Jeff. go to John Martignoni’s website:
Bible Christian Society.
There, you can send away for ‘free’ CD’s on how to defend the Faith. The only charge is for shipping and/or a donation.

How does Mike think about the ‘claims’ by the Baptists? Has he experienced the same thing too?

I’ll PM you about some other things.

 

[PagZ]

I dont want to junk the forum, but i dont know why everytime i opened every threads, i feel happy and feel i’m not lonely. i feel my chest is warm, and i missed this feeling alot… thanks to everyone and God too

 

[Dorothy]

PagZ:

I dont want to junk the forum, but i dont know why everytime i opened every threads, i feel happy and feel i’m not lonely. i feel my chest is warm, and i missed this feeling alot… thanks to everyone and God too

Glad you are happy with the forums! It is a good way to use the internet…for Christian community.

 

[krysianka]

jbsmith:

Well, I’ve heard a few that I’ll go ahead and post. . . .
“5. The Catholic Church is blasphemous because it adds to the Scripture and doesn’t take the Bible literally.”
. . .

Jeff:
Have you obtained a Catechism of the Catholic Church yet? If not, here is a website link to it, with search engine.

I just got my copy of Catholicism & Fundamentalism today. I wish I had time to dive into reading it. When you get your copy, I think it will answer many of your questions.

Off the top of my head, I have some questions/thoughts on #5, plus they are going to have to be a little more specific.

(A) How do Catholics “add to the Scripture”?
The timeline is a little off here. It seems that Luther rejected the deutero-canonical books. In Catholicism & Fundamentalism, Karl Keating maintains that a main reason was that they conflicted with his view of theology (example 2Maccabees 12:46, doctrine of purgatory).
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus (Sirach)
Barcuch
1 & 2 Maccabees
parts of Esther
parts of Daniel

(B) How is it that Catholics don’t take the bible literally?
There are four main senses the bible should be interpreted, and it depends upon the scripture itself:
Literal
Allegorical
Tropological
Anagogical
Here is a link that explains these four senses.
If anyone has a clearer explanation, I am interested. Several months ago, on EWTN’s Sunday Night Live, Fr Benedict Groeschel did a good job of explaining the four senses in layman’s terms.

One part of sacred scripture that the church teaches should be taken literally is John 6. The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord. Jesus wanted to remain with us, really and truly, and He gave Himself to us at the Last Supper. The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith as Catholics. Know Jesus truly present in the Blessed Sacrament and you will be home indeed.

RSV John 6
NAB John 6
Catholics take this literally, as well we should. Our Lord says over and over that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life within us, so we may have eternal life and He will raise us up on the last day, His flesh is “food indeed” and His blood is “drink indeed”, etc., etc. I love to read it and meditate on it.

For Example John 6:54, 6:56
The word “eat” used is not just “eat”, but a graphic animal munching so there was no confusion . . .
“EAT”
τρώγω
trōgō (tro’-go)
**Probably strengthened from a collateral form of the base of G5134 and G5147 through the idea of corrosion or wear; or perhaps rather of a base of G5167 and G5149 through the idea of a craunching sound; to gnaw or chew, that is, (genitive case) to eat: - eat. (Strong’s Commentary, available for download at eSword.com)

Jesus spoke in many parables, and His listeners, even his disciples, sometimes had a tough time understanding the parables. It is very clear to the Catholic Church that John 6 is a literal teaching. Jesus didn’t say “wait, come back guys, I was only speaking figuratively . . . symbolically!” I think this says it all . . .
John 6:60-69 RSV

 

[jbsmith]

Dorothy:

Jeff, there was a lot of topics in your list…here is the one on Peter and the papacy. I’m sure you never heard of this explanation before…neither have many Baptists.

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

Thank you, Dorothy. That was a great resource. I saved it on my hard drive. The next time they’re talking about this, I’m going to bring up the points in this article, or just read it to them.

 

[jbsmith]

Dorothy:

Jeff, I was a Catholic for many years before I understood and learned how to respond to non-Catholic objections to my faith. It was frustrating not to be able to.

But, I learned most of it from the book “Catholicism and Fundamentalism”.

I’m eager to read this book after hearing so much about it. I’m happy to say that it’s on its way to me. (Thank you, Edwin! )

That brings up another point, by the way. These Baptists (And I’ve heard many other Protestants say this, too) constantly talk about how Catholics don’t know the Bible and can’t explain their beliefs. Is this true? Are most Catholics ignorant of the Bible and unable to explain their beliefs? Or is this a Protestant myth?

 

[jbsmith]

krysianka:

As Dorothy recommends Catholicism & Fundamentalism, I hope you get your copy soon. Between that and the Bible Timeline you (finally) got, you’ll be all set with God’s grace! I recently ordered a copy for myself from Catholic Answers after hearing everyone’s recommendations.

Here’s some quick resources on Mary and the saints. As you can tell, I love the EWTN website for their resources.

Here’s a great resource weblink EWTN: ewtn.com/expert/answers/mother.htm

I would also recommend going to the Faith, Teachings site on EWTN . . . ewtn.com/faith/teachings/index.htm
. . . and click “Mary the Mother of Jesus”

I am sorry I couldn’t give more specifics myself right now. As you know, I am still very ill. Continuing to pray for you! God will see you through. I don’t know if you can, but I can see from the experiences you have described how open your heart is to Him. I thank Him that you have this and can be an example to me! With that malleable heart, He will surely lead you. I can barely muster to tear open a bit of my heart; when I do I am given such graces! Too independent; but this long fever is chipping away at it.

Thank you, krysianka. I will be getting Catholicism and Fundamentalism soon. I can’t wait to read it. I’ve looked at the timeline. It’s really great. I’m looking forward to seeing how the books od the Bible tie in and progress along with the timeline.

Thank you for the links. I’ll read them tomorrow when I’m not so tired.

I’m sorry you’re still sick. I’ll definitely be praying for you, and thank you for praying for me too. I have to say, though, I’m glad your fever is chipping away at your independence. I’ll be praying that God uses this illness to draw you closer to Him. Let me know how you’re doing.

 

[jbsmith]

krysianka:

Here’s another EWTN Link that I love: it is a list of frequently asked questions about the Catholic faith. At the top of the page, you can click on “Catholic Q&A” and it will take you to the main Catholic Q& A section.
ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm

Wow. There’s a lot there. This will give me something to read for quite a while! Thank you.

 

[jbsmith]

beckyann2597:

Which Bible timeline did you get Jeff? Sounds interesting…Just hearing “timeline” reminded me of this link that I saved because I thought it was cool…
home.adelphia.net/~annunciation/Churchhistory.pdf

Talk to you soon–Rebecca

This awesome, thank you for posting that link. I’ve never seen anything like that before.

The timeline krysianka sent me is from the Great Adventure Bible study series by Jeff Cavins.

 

[jbsmith]

Edwin1961:

Jeff. go to John Martignoni’s website:
Bible Christian Society.
There, you can send away for ‘free’ CD’s on how to defend the Faith. The only charge is for shipping and/or a donation.

How does Mike think about the ‘claims’ by the Baptists? Has he experienced the same thing too?

I’ll PM you about some other things.

Thank you for the link. I’ll look at it in depth tomorrow.

As for Mike, he doesn’t have much love for the Baptist faith. He never has. He basically thinks that it’s full of false doctrine and looks at it as being barely Christian. That’s putting it nicely. (And don’t get him started on eternal security! ) As for how he handles it, he’s not shy about refuting them on the spot. I think he rather enjoys it, actually.

 

[jbsmith]

PagZ:

I dont want to junk the forum, but i dont know why everytime i opened every threads, i feel happy and feel i’m not lonely. i feel my chest is warm, and i missed this feeling alot… thanks to everyone and God too

Thank you. I’m glad the forum has been a blessing to you. You can learn a lot here and find some wonderful, supportive people. Keep coming back. God bless you.

 

[jbsmith]

icequeen:

OK, I just got the chills! Wow, that is awesome. There was someone on The Journey Home that had the same type of experience. Mary is definitely leading you in the right direction.

I know that the Baptists can be persuasive, but don’t be too hard on yourself. You are new to Catholicism and you don’t know a whole lot. Catholicism is rich in information and history, which is something that the Baptists cannot claim. I would just tell them that you don’t know, but that you will find out for them. It will not only give them the information that they are asking, but you will learn as you find out. My sister-in-law had the same type of experiences with Seventh Day Adventists. She said that that was the only way that she learn as much as she had about what it is that we truly believe and why we believe it. I would also thank them for the opportunity that they have presented to you to learn more about the Catholic Church. This may get them to stop, or it may plant a seed in them.

That’s too bad that you aren’t coming into the church this year, but at least you will have a study-buddy for RCIA next year. You and Mike can encourage each other, then come into the church together next Easter. And don’t worry about the wealthy people in the other church. My church is the same way, lots of elderly and rich people attend. But, the good thing is that these people tend to give more to their church, so the ministry programs are well funded. You could benefit greatly from this. Plus, you are there to worship God. Don’t worry about what others are thinking. It’s just like at the other church, we are all the same in the eyes of God.

Still praying for you and your friends and family.

Thank you for your prayers. They’re always appreciated.

As for the Baptists, they’re very persistent. One thing I can say for them is that they really do seem to ahve a genuine passion for reaching people with the Gospel. Whether or not it’s the true Gospel is another matter. You made an interesting point, too. I’ve never heard a Baptist (minister or layperson) talk about church history. I’ve heard a few talk about Baptist history and the Protestant Reformation, but nothing beyond that. By listening to them, you’d think there was no church in between the time of the NT and the Reformation. On the other hand, Catholics talk about church history all the time, at least in my experience. It’s interesting how vastly different these two branches of the Christian faith are.

I’ve heard of the Seventh Day Adventists, but have never met one. We don’t have any Seventh Day Adventist churches here. I’ve heard they’re very anti-Catholic, though.

I’ll work on not letting the wealthy people in this parish make me feel out of place. It’s true that I’m there for the sole purpose of worshiping God. I’ve just always felt so uncomfortable around wealthy people and in wealthy surroundings.

Yes, Mike and I were talking about RCIA the other day. We were talking about entering the process together and studying together. By the way, did I mention that Mike is an ordained Protestant minister? It makes his conversion even more astounding, in my opinion.

 

[jbsmith]

krysianka:

Jeff:
Have you obtained a Catechism of the Catholic Church yet? If not, here is a website link to it, with search engine.

I just got my copy of Catholicism & Fundamentalism today. I wish I had time to dive into reading it. When you get your copy, I think it will answer many of your questions.

Off the top of my head, I have some questions/thoughts on #5, plus they are going to have to be a little more specific.

(A) How do Catholics “add to the Scripture”?
The timeline is a little off here. It seems that Luther rejected the deutero-canonical books. In Catholicism & Fundamentalism, Karl Keating maintains that a main reason was that they conflicted with his view of theology (example 2Maccabees 12:46, doctrine of purgatory).
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus (Sirach)
Barcuch
1 & 2 Maccabees
parts of Esther
parts of Daniel

(B) How is it that Catholics don’t take the bible literally?
There are four main senses the bible should be interpreted, and it depends upon the scripture itself:
Literal
Allegorical
Tropological
Anagogical
Here is a link that explains these four senses.
If anyone has a clearer explanation, I am interested. Several months ago, on EWTN’s Sunday Night Live, Fr Benedict Groeschel did a good job of explaining the four senses in layman’s terms.

One part of sacred scripture that the church teaches should be taken literally is John 6. The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord. Jesus wanted to remain with us, really and truly, and He gave Himself to us at the Last Supper. The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith as Catholics. Know Jesus truly present in the Blessed Sacrament and you will be home indeed.

RSV John 6
NAB John 6
Catholics take this literally, as well we should. Our Lord says over and over that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life within us, so we may have eternal life and He will raise us up on the last day, His flesh is “food indeed” and His blood is “drink indeed”, etc., etc. I love to read it and meditate on it.

For Example John 6:54, 6:56
The word “eat” used is not just “eat”, but a graphic animal munching so there was no confusion . . .
“EAT”
τρώγω
trōgō (tro’-go)
**Probably strengthened from a collateral form of the base of G5134 and G5147 through the idea of corrosion or wear; or perhaps rather of a base of G5167 and G5149 through the idea of a craunching sound; to gnaw or chew, that is, (genitive case) to eat: - eat. (Strong’s Commentary, available for download at eSword.com)

Jesus spoke in many parables, and His listeners, even his disciples, sometimes had a tough time understanding the parables. It is very clear to the Catholic Church that John 6 is a literal teaching. Jesus didn’t say “wait, come back guys, I was only speaking figuratively . . . symbolically!” I think this says it all . . .
John 6:60-69 RSV

Thank you for teh link to the CCC. I don’t have a copy, so this will be useful.

I’m glad you got a copy of the book. Share your thoughts about it with me when you start reading it.

Thanks for the other links. I’ll read them tomorrow. I’m really tired now and need to go to bed. I’ll post tomorrow after I read them.

 

[Tonks40]

jbsmith:

Yes, Mike and I were talking about RCIA the other day. We were talking about entering the process together and studying together. By the way, did I mention that Mike is an ordained Protestant minister? It makes his conversion even more astounding, in my opinion.

Whoa! Jeff, please direct him to this link:

The Coming Home Network

This organization was founded by Marcus Grodi, host of the ETWN network’s “The Journey Home” and other protestant ministers who have decided to “cross the Tiber” and come home to the Catholic Church. They have resources and a support network for ministers who have decided to enter into the full Christian community of the Catholic Church.

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy]

jbsmith:

I’m eager to read this book after hearing so much about it. I’m happy to say that it’s on its way to me. (Thank you, Edwin! )

That brings up another point, by the way. These Baptists (And I’ve heard many other Protestants say this, too) constantly talk about how Catholics don’t know the Bible and can’t explain their beliefs. Is this true? Are most Catholics ignorant of the Bible and unable to explain their beliefs? Or is this a Protestant myth?

In every faith there are a percentage of people who are articulate in expressing why they believe their particular view, and what they believe.

In the Mass we have the Liturgy of the Word, (Sacred Scripture), and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. And the Mass is the central act of worship in the Catholic Church. Because Protestants do not have this emphasis, it seems, in their eyes that we are “neglecting Scripture”.

And, in all fairness, there is some truth to that fact that in the past there weren’t a lot of Bible studies available to Catholics as there are now. And, also the fact that many immigrants were illiterate and had difficulty understanding a lot of parts of the Bible. It is easy to read the Bible by one’s self and to misunderstand what something means and to come away with one’s own interpretation. This has happened, and still happens.

Because the Protestants did not have the Mass, their strong point was to focus on the Bible. From the time they were young children they were taught to memorize verses that they believed justified what they believed in. Then, as adults, it seemed to me that they mindlessly spouted those verses off to “refute” something I believed in. They had not read the history of the early Church, or how the doctrines developed.

Those are just my thoughts, as I do not have the educational background to explain this in any depth. (s)

 

[Dorothy]

I can’t help but comment happily on the wonderful (name removed by moderator)ut given by all the posters here!

Thanks be to God!

 

[jbsmith]

Dorothy:

I can’t help but comment happily on the wonderful (name removed by moderator)ut given by all the posters here!

Thanks be to God!

It’s great, isn’t it? I’m going to be spending a good deal of time today reading the links that everyone has provided me. By the time RCIA starts this fall, I should be one step ahead of everyone else.

 

[jbsmith]

Dorothy:

In every faith there are a percentage of people who are articulate in expressing why they believe their particular view, and what they believe.

In the Mass we have the Liturgy of the Word, (Sacred Scripture), and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. And the Mass is the central act of worship in the Catholic Church. Because Protestants do not have this emphasis, it seems, in their eyes that we are “neglecting Scripture”.

And, in all fairness, there is some truth to that fact that in the past there weren’t a lot of Bible studies available to Catholics as there are now. And, also the fact that many immigrants were illiterate and had difficulty understanding a lot of parts of the Bible. It is easy to read the Bible by one’s self and to misunderstand what something means and to come away with one’s own interpretation. This has happened, and still happens.

Because the Protestants did not have the Mass, their strong point was to focus on the Bible. From the time they were young children they were taught to memorize verses that they believed justified what they believed in. Then, as adults, it seemed to me that they mindlessly spouted those verses off to “refute” something I believed in. They had not read the history of the early Church, or how the doctrines developed.

Those are just my thoughts, as I do not have the educational background to explain this in any depth. (s)

Thank you. What you posted made a lot of sense. I have noticed that Catholic worship services and Protestant ones are different in their emphases. I can see where that could lead some Protestants to think that the Catholic Church isn’t focused on the Bible.

The former RCIA teacher at my former parish also told me that Catholics gradually fell away from the Bible and the Church has been putting a renewed emphasis on Bible study since Vatican II.

 

[jbsmith]

Tonks40:

Whoa! Jeff, please direct him to this link:

The Coming Home Network

This organization was founded by Marcus Grodi, host of the ETWN network’s “The Journey Home” and other protestant ministers who have decided to “cross the Tiber” and come home to the Catholic Church. They have resources and a support network for ministers who have decided to enter into the full Christian community of the Catholic Church.

God Bless!

Thank you. I browsed the website and it looks interesting. I didn’t realize so many Protestant ministers convert to Catholicism. I’ll tell Mike about it and see what he thinks.