My Spiritual Journey

[Rammy]

That one costs money to enrole, and to buy the materials to do the classes…found that out when i enrolled.

Jeff, still praying all the time for you. Feels different simply chatting with nothing like evil spirits lurking about…lol

I amglad for you!

Lana

 

[krysianka]

Hey Jeff, you may find this interesting . . .
I got to the following link by clicking on the “Chastity” link at the very top of this page:
pureloveclub.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&cat=Homosexuality
This is Jason & Crystalina Evert’s site, and it’s really awesome. You and I are about the same age; I only wish that when I was a teenager I could have heard this message in the straightforward, caring, unafraid way that they deliver it.

 

[Rammy]

Hey guys, still thinking and praying for you and your struggle to be united with Gods glory and strength…

The topics are a bit over my head, but i promise to add in once i know what i am talking about…also, been battleing my unique way of wording things, and well…not all apreciate, and i fear binoculars over my sholder…

So know i Love you Jeff, and want you to seek what is best for you…for the Glory of his name, i pray your journey is still up and moving…

Lana

 

[jbsmith]

beckyann2597:

Only one of these friends was Catholic,Ryan1, and he ended up leaving the faith because he wanted to live the gay lifestyle. Ryan1 was raised without a father. I have heard people talk about what makes people have SSA. Are they born with it? Is it sexual abuse, or neglect from early in life? Is it environmental in some other way? I think that all are true.

Ryan 2 was born to an intact Christian family. He even tried to be hetrosexual through HS and had a girlfriend and all. But after HS graduation, he came out in college and none of us were surprised.

I have also had friends who have tried on a homosexual relationship, just to see if it fit. They stayed in the gay scene because it was comfortable and they were used to it, but they also hooked up with the opposite sex and identified themselves as bisexual. I think in their cases, “deprogramming” like the ministry the guy on LOTR supported would work very well. But I do have a problem with counseling like that, just because I feel that not all gay people have it in them to live a hetrosexual lifestyle. Celibacy would probably be those other peoples best bet. I hope that ministries like that also touch on how a person who is unable to change their desires can healthfully live a celibate lifestyle.

The one family at church who are not speaking with their son believe that he chose to have SSA and he is in part doing it to hurt them. I could never believe this. Why would someone choose to live such a difficult lifestyle, with people who hate you and would hurt you because of it and be alienated from your family?

You had siad in your last thread that you were once engaged to a woman, that you truly loved her and could have been married with kids to her. Because you felt this way once, that is why I feel you could very likely feel this way again. I would think that SSA would still be a cross and temptation for you, I am sure it could be for many men who are married to women and identify themselves as hetrosexuals but still have SSA tendencies. Some people I believe are born with and/or develop a stronger SSA than others and they cannot have a meaningful hetrosexual relationship because there is no real attraction to the opposite sex. I feel bad for people who have to live with this cross, but it is worth carrying to get to heaven.

When I first heard about my friends kids, I started to look up what the church actually taught on homosexual relationships. It turns out that years and years ago, the Vatican had touched on it just a little and pretty much siad that some people are born this way, and some peope, for whatever reason, develop homosexual tendencies. From what I found they taught that it is a disordered state of human sexuality and that the desire in itself was not the sin, but the acting on it that was. From what I remember, the Vatican document was very compassionate did not have a real indication whether people could be “fixed” or not. It is a very popular idea, though, that people can be deprogrammed. Just because the priest who hosted the show believed that this was possible for every person with SSA to be completely straight, it doesn’t mean its the official church teaching. I will snoop around and try to find the original church document.

I just wrote you a book and need to get back to cleaning my house. I will talk to you again soon–Rebecca

Thanks for looking for the original Church document. I’d be interested in reading it.

Yes, it’s true I was once engaged to a woman. We were together for 2 1/2 years. I loved her, and if she hadn’t cheated on me, I’m sure we would be married today.

As far as whether or not all people with SSA can change and lead heterosexual lives, I’m not sure either. I definitely believe that some people can. I know of too many success stories to believe otherwise. However, maybe some people really can’t. I don’t know. I do agree, though, that if someone hasn’t been able to conquer his or her SSA and develop a heterosexual orientation, celibacy is the only option.

I do like the Church’s stance regarding people who struggle with SSA. From what I’ve read in the online CCC, the Church hates the sin but loves the sinner and believes that those struggling with SSA should be treated with compassion and dignity. Somehow I don’t picture Benedict XVI spewing cold, unloving condemnations on someone for feeling SSA the way I’ve heard so many preachers (Protestant, mainly evangelical) do so many times. It reminds of a an interview I read years ago, in which Mother Teresa was addressing the issue of homosexulity. I don’t remember her exact words, but she said something to the effect of treating homosexual people with compassion and respect, and helping them in their struggles with SSA so they can be complete in Christ. That is such a loving, Christ-like attitude.

 

[jbsmith]

krysianka:

Becky:
I agree with everything you posted.

Jeff:
I haven’t seen anywhere that the Catholic Church would definitively teach (or suggest) that individuals that identify themselves as homosexual, or individuals with SSA, either CAN or **CAN’T **alter their sexual orientation. **Someone correct me if I’m wrong, **but I don’t think the RCC would make a statement of this nature. Isn’t such a determination under the realm of medical science / psychological science / behavioral science?


Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

The interesting part about “being called to chastity” . . . we are ALL called to chastity, whatever our state in life: priest, religious, married, single-in-the-world.

Chastity and Celibacy are two different things (link)** . . .**
CHASTITY: The moral virtue which, under the cardinal virtue of temperance, provides for the successful integration of sexuality within the person leading to the inner unity of the bodily and spiritual being (2337). Chastity is called one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit (1832).
CELIBACY: The state or condition of those who have chosen to remain unmarried for the sake of the kingdom of heaven in order to give themselves entirely to God and to the service of his people. In the Latin Church, celibacy is obligatory for bishops and priests. In some Eastern Churches, celibacy is a prerequisite for the ordination only of bishops; priests may not marry after they have been ordained (1579, 1580).

Thank you. You’ve educated me in something I wasn’t aware of. The distiction between chastity and celibacy is interesting. Correct me if I’m wrong, but this would seem to indicate that someone who experiences SSA could possibly overcome it and live chastely in a heterosexual relationship. Of course, I imagine it would take a long time.

 

[jbsmith]

beckyann2597:

Just thought of another scripture study that had been recommended…
css.catholicexchange.com/index.asp

That looks like a great study. I’m going to have to look into ordering it. Thanks.

 

[jbsmith]

Rammy:

That one costs money to enrole, and to buy the materials to do the classes…found that out when i enrolled.

Jeff, still praying all the time for you. Feels different simply chatting with nothing like evil spirits lurking about…lol

I amglad for you!

Lana

Thank you, keep on praying. Yes, I’m going to see how much it costs. It looks like it would be a great study to enroll in.

 

[jbsmith]

krysianka:

Hey Jeff, you may find this interesting . . .
I got to the following link by clicking on the “Chastity” link at the very top of this page:
pureloveclub.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&cat=Homosexuality
This is Jason & Crystalina Evert’s site, and it’s really awesome. You and I are about the same age; I only wish that when I was a teenager I could have heard this message in the straightforward, caring, unafraid way that they deliver it.

This is interesting, thanks. I noticed they use the “chaste” instead of “celibate.” I wonder if that’s significant? This man’s story sounds very similar to mine.

 

[jbsmith]

Rammy:

Hey guys, still thinking and praying for you and your struggle to be united with Gods glory and strength…

The topics are a bit over my head, but i promise to add in once i know what i am talking about…also, been battleing my unique way of wording things, and well…not all apreciate, and i fear binoculars over my sholder…

So know i Love you Jeff, and want you to seek what is best for you…for the Glory of his name, i pray your journey is still up and moving…

Lana

Thank you again for your prayers. Please keep them coming and post here as often as you like!

God bless you!

 

[beckyann2597]

Here is another bible study that I believe is less expensive than the one I pointed to earlier and The host, Jeff Cavins, has weekly bible study sessions that you follow along with. I know that my local radio station has it play 2times in the week and has in online so you can listen to last weeks session if you missed it. I have heard it on the radio and found him very informative and interesting to listen to. My church uses these bible studies and I have heard a lot of good feedback about it. I think this will be the bible study I participate in (I will buy all the study giude stuff). Here is the info I found on it
thebibletimeline.com/
You can find all the materials to buy on the website and I will see what my church has to borrow from our library. I will e-mail our DRE. Pretty much if he endorses this, I want to try it. I really respect he and his wife’s expertise.
Just yesterday, my husband and I were at a friend’s house for a lenten bible study that our parish is giving us the materials for. It had us discussing the Transfiguration, and I was remembering the in depth talk that Jeff Cavins had given on the radio about it. He referenced the OT and history, and how exactly the disciples would have related to it all. I didn’t remember everything he had siad, but because I remembered a little bit, I was able to add to the discussion positively. Now I HAVE to borrow the tapes of the bible study from the DRE NOW so I can add more to next weeks discussion!
God Bless and I’ll talk to you soon—Rebecca

PS-- Still looking for the online vatican documents about SSA. I will let youknow when I find it.

 

[Rammy]

beckyann2597:

Here is another bible study that I believe is less expensive than the one I pointed to earlier and The host, Jeff Cavins, has weekly bible study sessions that you follow along with. I know that my local radio station has it play 2times in the week and has in online so you can listen to last weeks session if you missed it. I have heard it on the radio and found him very informative and interesting to listen to. My church uses these bible studies and I have heard a lot of good feedback about it. I think this will be the bible study I participate in (I will buy all the study giude stuff). Here is the info I found on it
thebibletimeline.com/
You can find all the materials to buy on the website and I will see what my church has to borrow from our library. I will e-mail our DRE. Pretty much if he endorses this, I want to try it. I really respect he and his wife’s expertise.
Just yesterday, my husband and I were at a friend’s house for a lenten bible study that our parish is giving us the materials for. It had us discussing the Transfiguration, and I was remembering the in depth talk that Jeff Cavins had given on the radio about it. He referenced the OT and history, and how exactly the disciples would have related to it all. I didn’t remember everything he had siad, but because I remembered a little bit, I was able to add to the discussion positively. Now I HAVE to borrow the tapes of the bible study from the DRE NOW so I can add more to next weeks discussion!
God Bless and I’ll talk to you soon—Rebecca

PS-- Still looking for the online vatican documents about SSA. I will let youknow when I find it.

I will look this one up latter, as buying anything online would infuriate my husband. I ordered a few CD’s of the Rosary…my ultimate faves that i lost…Dana and Father Scallon (irish and so sweetly spoken). Well it was through one of the Catholic web sights, and somehow, using my husbands visa to do it, it was not a secure sight. We have since had the cards replaced, huge investigation, and charges. My husbands card was used for a HUGE sporting goods purchase. They won’t tell us yet what it was, but it needed the limit upped. This was somewhere in the lower United States, and we live in Ontario Canada. They tried to do this, but the parinoia already inbread in my husband saved him…they were told no purchases used on this card without a call to verify who was using it. This card is mostly used as a float for cash in our busines for expenses…

So if the course had the Pope for a lecturer…my husband would still say NO. (This is a man that does not ever use a drive through bank machines, has never deposited in an instant teller, and still uses his Beta to watch old concerts of Bruce Springsteen…LOL. It sends him loopy that i pay my utilities online.)

 

[icequeen]

Rammy:

I will look this one up latter, as buying anything online would infuriate my husband. I ordered a few CD’s of the Rosary…my ultimate faves that i lost…Dana and Father Scallon (irish and so sweetly spoken). Well it was through one of the Catholic web sights, and somehow, using my husbands visa to do it, it was not a secure sight. We have since had the cards replaced, huge investigation, and charges. My husbands card was used for a HUGE sporting goods purchase. They won’t tell us yet what it was, but it needed the limit upped. This was somewhere in the lower United States, and we live in Ontario Canada. They tried to do this, but the parinoia already inbread in my husband saved him…they were told no purchases used on this card without a call to verify who was using it. This card is mostly used as a float for cash in our busines for expenses…

So if the course had the Pope for a lecturer…my husband would still say NO. (This is a man that does not ever use a drive through bank machines, has never deposited in an instant teller, and still uses his Beta to watch old concerts of Bruce Springsteen…LOL. It sends him loopy that i pay my utilities online.)

It sounds like he needs to join us on the Illustrious Ark! But, seriously, he probably right about a lot of things too!

 

[Rammy]

icequeen:

It sounds like he needs to join us on the Illustrious Ark! But, seriously, he probably right about a lot of things too!

Oh i can NEVER reveal this to him…he’d have us in lock up…He’s a very True Noid!!!

Seen conspiricy theory…well it might as well have been written by him…only he can keep a straight face…errie to think of it.

We tap him on the head once in a while to let him know something is suspicious, and he goes back into his shell.

ROFL…

 

[icequeen]

Jeff, I am so glad to see that your journey is moving into a new phase. Arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can. You will find that once you have that, no one will be able to sway you from your course. I know that the Baptists can be very persistent in their infinite ignorance. They know all about what they are told, they are experts. But, they don’t know much beyond that. I have a sister-in-law who has church-bounced into a Baptist church. It is very difficult to deal with her at times, but still love her to pieces. She is a very giving person and sometimes the things that she does for others is sooo Catholic, but I don’t point it out. I think that she would just die if she knew. I would just tell the Baptists that you don’t know the answer, but that you will research it and get back to them. And Eddy is right, only reference the Bible. To them, time stopped right after the last apostle died and restarted with the Reformation. They do not understand that they are denying 1500 years of church history.

I’m still praying for you and your friends and family. Did Ginger end up going to Mass? If she did, what did she think?

 

[icequeen]

Rammy:

Oh i can NEVER reveal this to him…he’d have us in lock up…He’s a very True Noid!!!

Seen conspiricy theory…well it might as well have been written by him…only he can keep a straight face…errie to think of it.

We tap him on the head once in a while to let him know something is suspicious, and he goes back into his shell.

ROFL…

I can’t imagine what he thinks of the JFK assassination! Oh, bestill my Noidy heart!!!

 

[Rammy]

I can’t imagine what he thinks of the JFK assassination! Oh, bestill my Noidy heart!!!

Well it is always anyones fault, but his own…so i bet he might think, he went out in public, he brought it on his self…

He’squite happy with dirty hairy feet living in his hole in the ground…lol

Not the first time i called him a hobbit!..ROFL

Man, i need the laughter, or this might seem like a marriage that is beyond help…and i can not think that…lol…right?

 

[jbsmith]

beckyann2597:

Here is another bible study that I believe is less expensive than the one I pointed to earlier and The host, Jeff Cavins, has weekly bible study sessions that you follow along with. I know that my local radio station has it play 2times in the week and has in online so you can listen to last weeks session if you missed it. I have heard it on the radio and found him very informative and interesting to listen to. My church uses these bible studies and I have heard a lot of good feedback about it. I think this will be the bible study I participate in (I will buy all the study giude stuff). Here is the info I found on it
thebibletimeline.com/
You can find all the materials to buy on the website and I will see what my church has to borrow from our library. I will e-mail our DRE. Pretty much if he endorses this, I want to try it. I really respect he and his wife’s expertise.
Just yesterday, my husband and I were at a friend’s house for a lenten bible study that our parish is giving us the materials for. It had us discussing the Transfiguration, and I was remembering the in depth talk that Jeff Cavins had given on the radio about it. He referenced the OT and history, and how exactly the disciples would have related to it all. I didn’t remember everything he had siad, but because I remembered a little bit, I was able to add to the discussion positively. Now I HAVE to borrow the tapes of the bible study from the DRE NOW so I can add more to next weeks discussion!
God Bless and I’ll talk to you soon—Rebecca

PS-- Still looking for the online vatican documents about SSA. I will let youknow when I find it.

Thank you for the suggestion. I browsed the website, and it looked good. I could probably learn a lot from this.

 

[jbsmith]

icequeen:

Jeff, I am so glad to see that your journey is moving into a new phase. Arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can. You will find that once you have that, no one will be able to sway you from your course. I know that the Baptists can be very persistent in their infinite ignorance. They know all about what they are told, they are experts. But, they don’t know much beyond that. I have a sister-in-law who has church-bounced into a Baptist church. It is very difficult to deal with her at times, but still love her to pieces. She is a very giving person and sometimes the things that she does for others is sooo Catholic, but I don’t point it out. I think that she would just die if she knew. I would just tell the Baptists that you don’t know the answer, but that you will research it and get back to them. And Eddy is right, only reference the Bible. To them, time stopped right after the last apostle died and restarted with the Reformation. They do not understand that they are denying 1500 years of church history.

I’m still praying for you and your friends and family. Did Ginger end up going to Mass? If she did, what did she think?

Ginger hasn’t gone to Mass yet. She was going to go to the local parish and speak with the parish coordinator tomorrow, but she’s been very sick for a few days. If she feels better at the end of the week (She’s hoping she will. She has an appointment to see her doctor tomorrow.) she’s going to go to the parish then. She didn’t go to Mass yesterday because she says she’d feel more comfortable meeting with the parish coordinator first.

I went to a private Baptist school from fourth through twelfth grade, and we had daily Bible classes and weekly chapel services. They taught us the Old and New Testaments, and skipped everything up until the Reformation. Weird.

 

[beckyann2597]

Found this and thought you would find it interesting. Still looking for the Vatican stuff. I know its there! I have read it before!

Taken from the official Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357-2359 {revised edition}

2357

"Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359

Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

 

[beckyann2597]

Something else I found but haven’t read through completly…

newadvent.org/library/docs_df86ho.htm