My thoughts on the Pope's statements, and Islam

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AlanFromWichita said:
When we as Christians cannot even discuss a topic without resorting to personal insults, name-calling, and the like, then the casual observer might see all of this and think that Catholicism is a faith of discord and bickering.

We look at those who do violence and say it is because of their religion. I look at this thread and see verbal violence and wonder if we could agree that it is Catholicism that is causing it. If we can’t, then maybe we cannot see clearly to assign some other religion as the “cause” of their violence.

Is it really true that Catholics who have a different view on their faith, the pronouncements of leaders, or political events, than we have are our enemies? With attitudes like that, we don’t need outside help to cause our own church to implode.
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You make very good sense. I used to debate/discuss/comment on the Rapture Ready Board, an Evangelical forum though not a Fundamentalist one. They had some adversarial attitude towards Catholicism, but I never saw the rancor among themselves that we see here, and they were never anything but charitable to me, even when I debated apologetics or responded to some anti-Catholic post. They attacked my arguments, but never me, and they didn’t attack any of the Protestants on the Board.

Why aren’t Catholics as charitable to one another? Why do we have such polarization when others don’t necessarily have such? Not to say that there aren’t non-Catholic Boards that don’t have the problems we do, but one would think that as we are of the same faith, we would respect one another more than a Baptist might respect an Anglican, e.g.
 
I think there is an understandable human strain when Catholics hear other Catholics proclaim relativistic comments about Islam and Christianity as if there were no difference.

There is a strain when Catholics hear other Catholics say they think the Pope should apologize, when such an apology for the truth would in itself be an evil…

There is a strain when Catholics hear other Catholics say that they are pro-life but do not believe the governement has a right to stop a mother from murdering her unborn fetus since murder is apparently an act of conscience.

When Catholics who are striving to form their conscience in accord with the CCC hear other Catholics say that evil is good, they oftentimes cannot contain their grief and anger and sometimes rebuke too harshly. I note though that Catholics on these issues do not resort to violence.

Under such a strain, such a Catholic would do well to remember the third sorrowful mystery and remember that Jesus was perfect in His silence, perfect in beauty in His terrible suffering amid the bestial mockery of His accusers. He was the Lamp of humanity for all who are surrounded by those who would make us less than the humans God the Father asks us to be.

peace
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
I think there is an understandable human strain~truncated~Catholics on these issues do not resort to violence.
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A reasoned exposition of one position, but the rancor is not restricted to theological topics. There is the same attitude on politics as well, with IMO too often inappropriate polarization.

We may rebut other’s positions, but should not attack each other as persons.
 
Richardols said:
A reasoned exposition of one position, but the rancor is not restricted to theological topics. There is the same attitude on politics as well, with IMO too often inappropriate polarization.

We may rebut other’s positions, but should not attack each other as persons.
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Every American’s been cranky about politics since John Adams. I don’t think that’s a Catholic issue, but as Catholics we should not be uncharitable.

I … I … I agree with Richard. 😃 😃 😃 👍
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
Every American’s been cranky about politics since John Adams. I don’t think that’s a Catholic issue, but as Catholics we should not be uncharitable.

I … I … I agree with Richard. 😃 😃 😃 👍
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Highly unfair to tar President Adams with the label of first “cranky” American on politics. Certainly we can go back at least to John Winthrop and the Pilgrims. 😛
 
Richardols said:
Cathgal, your response is one uncharitable insult after another. If you were so offended by the post, then why didn’t you respond to the points made in it by CathCentrist? Ad hominems don’t ever win arguments.
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I did…or didn’t you know?
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
I … I … I agree with Richard. 😃 😃 😃 👍
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You seem to be an orthodox Catholic, so even if we have different opinions about Islam and perhaps about various secular matters, I’m sure that in theological matters I’ll find myself agreeing with you. 😃 👍
 
Thekla said:
I think that the Holy Father likely made a mistake in quoting some obscure Byzantine emporer who said that Mohammed had brought only evil into the world. It doesn’t seen that Muslims were angry about the violence angle so much as they were (and some still are) about the insult made to their prophet.

I also found the Holy Father’s apology to be lacking. If that was his intent, he shouldn’t have made one at all because it clearly fell flat. We don’t go to confession and say that we are sorry if God is mad about what we did; we say that we are sorry for what we have done.
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What kind of apology would you have the Pope makes that would appease the Muslims?

Oh I know.

Something like:
“Mohammed was a merciful conqueror. He didn’t spread the faith by the sword, but with peace and love”

Would this apology be acceptable to them??
How do you get around the truth?

It’s a coward’s way out if you ask me, and Benedict is anything but.
 
cathgal said:
What kind of apology would you have the Pope makes that would appease the Muslims?
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The Pope has made further qualification to what he said, and is separating himself more from that Emperor’s statement. I’d say that he, on that occasion, lacked the diplomatic tact that JPII always had, but, he is learning. Remember that JPII was always a pastor, who had to deal with everyone from hard-line Communists to the pious faithful, and knew how to deal with each of them, while B16 was primarily an academician whose audience was primarily the learned.
 
Richardols said:
The Pope has made further qualification to what he said, and is separating himself more from that Emperor’s statement. I’d say that he, on that occasion, lacked the diplomatic tact that JPII always had, but, he is learning. Remember that JPII was always a pastor, who had to deal with everyone from hard-line Communists to the pious faithful, and knew how to deal with each of them, while B16 was primarily an academician whose audience was primarily the learned.
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So it’s not apology that the Pope needs to give in stating the truth. What you ask is for the Pope to have a better diplomatic skill. But even if he has the skill, how do you suggest he get around the truth other than stating it for what it is?

Would you have a better method than the Pope?
 
Richardols said:
The Pope has made further qualification to what he said, and is separating himself more from that Emperor’s statement. I’d say that he, on that occasion, lacked the diplomatic tact that JPII always had, but, he is learning. Remember that JPII was always a pastor, who had to deal with everyone from hard-line Communists to the pious faithful, and knew how to deal with each of them, while B16 was primarily an academician whose audience was primarily the learned.
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If there’s a better diplomatic skill than telling the truth please point it out.
 
estesbob said:
And what excuses are that? You are not impying that it has ever been Church docrtine to spread the Faith by violence, are you? I am not being hostile or antagonistic-merely pointing out that most people (yourself being a prime example) who criticize the church for the past dont have a clue as to what really happened.

You dont really have a grasp of what the Pope said and why he said it. Instead of seeking to understand(and it was a complex point he was making) you just criticize.
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I could also be presumptous and claim you dont have a grasp of what he said and what he meant. 😉

Bottom line and then I am commenting on this issue

Dont *quote *ancient people to a group of people who you KNOW have the potential to react radically in thought and deed - and then take an easy out and say, those views arent your own. Then you shouldnt have quoted it at all or in the least, QUANTIFY FURTHER what your meaning was. My position is of course, he shouldnt have said it at all. I aint condemning the man, but I aint going to defend him either on this. He’ll survive it, and hopefully be more aware of what his words have the potential to cause. Which brings me to his advisors. I hold them accountable as well if they didnt (which I dont know) try and tell him the possible backlash for what his speech could have caused. Too many people think everything that emits from a Pope’s lips (when he isnt speaking infallibly) are somehow greater than other’s opinions, which mostly I would say, they are on matters of faith, but not always. And I discern this is one of those times, thats all.
 
cathgal said:
Your post shows your ignorance.

You’re not an expert in history so don’t pretend to be.

You’re the one stuck in the dark ages if you can’t see Christianity for what it is today. All you can see is the bad, not the good. You parallel present Catholicism w/ Islam. Are you so blind?? You see any violent deeds done by Catholic Christians compared to Muslims? Did not John Paul apologize for the wrongs done by Catholic Christians?
Do you see Muslims did any such thing?

Pope Benedict has every right to say the truth about Islam. He’s not the hypocrite here !

Look to the state of the Church in the present. Not in the dark ages!

A shame to call yourself a Catholic!
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Another forum psychic 😛
 
Thekla said:
I think that the Holy Father likely made a mistake in quoting some obscure Byzantine emporer who said that Mohammed had brought only evil into the world. It doesn’t seen that Muslims were angry about the violence angle so much as they were (and some still are) about the insult made to their prophet.

I also found the Holy Father’s apology to be lacking. If that was his intent, he shouldn’t have made one at all because it clearly fell flat. We don’t go to confession and say that we are sorry if God is mad about what we did; we say that we are sorry for what we have done.
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Agreed! 👍

He did in politics what is called, a non apology apology, "sorry if YOU took it the wrong way.
 
bones_IV said:
If there’s a better diplomatic skill than telling the truth please point it out.
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More than happy to oblige you

Truth IS often a bitter pill to swallow. Thats why a little thing called TACT is needed. When you can show me where in the bible Jesus tells the prostitute she’s a whore and is going to hell, instead of the OTHER manner in which he approached the subject, I will begin to listen to you.
 
bones_IV said:
That’s a pretty hurtful thing to say to someone. Perhaps you should some manners in charity and respect.
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And what she accused me of isnt? Thats uncharitable and before when I lurked here, I notice you are good at baiting others in this manner in hopes moderators will get involved. Please place me on your ignore list as I will do you.
 
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