My understanding of Mohammad

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Actually, there are times when lying is okay. For example, let’s say that a child, who is being chased by evil men, runs into a house and asks to be hidden. When the men bang on the door, and ask if the child is there, is it not okay for the homeowner to lie, and to say no, in order to save the child?

Not everything in life is black-and-white, or simple, with simple explanations. This applies also to the acceptance of the Holy Trinity - it is something that the human mind cannot quite wrap itself around. There are mysteries of the faith that are difficult to understand, though religions that are somewhat simplistic will perhaps have a great appeal, of course.
My apologies. It wasn’t accurate for me to say that there are times when lying is okay. It is still considered a sin, but circumstances determine whether or not it’s a venial or mortal sin. From the catechism of the Church:
  1. The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
 
Military just dissolved the parliament and apparently suspended the constitution (or so I read on AJE). They’re supposed to be in charge until elections, later this year. I heard (yesterday, I think) that they’ve formed an advisory council to start developing the system of government, structuring it to give more power to a parliament (and less to a president, as was the case before.)

And some folks are still in the square (or so I read) but a government can’t be formed overnight. Will take time–I’m hoping for the best right now.
My wife is from Nicaragua, its freedom revolution came about very much like Egypt is starting out. There was an authoritarian at the time before the revolution just like Egypt,America financed that gov’t to help “keep” communist from taking over. Look where it is now,in complete ruin. The communists took advantage and seized it from the people,claiming they were the revolutionaries. People are suffering, the 2nd poorest nation in central America. Sandinistas have taken over and people have no were to go. My wife’s father thrown into prison and suffered because he tried to help free the country.
All I’m saying, we don’t know the future of Egypt, too many dark forces surrounding that country,needless to say, extremists.Not only religious , but gov’t extremists on socialist or communist side.
 
Schaick,

Affirm your fact that Jesus is the Gospel.

Jesus is the Incarnate Word through which the carnate world was created. Jesus always was, is, and will be forever.

Even as a small child I was deeply moved by Christ coming into this world, not through triumph and condemnation…but as an infant, born of poor parents, and placed in a manger surrounded by shepherds and animals, the shepherds being the lowest rank in society.
Yes GOD’s Word- the message to us of GOD’s love and gift of salvation.

Everything about Jesus is Good News!!

And HE **lived the message **-HE is the good shepherd laying HIS life down for HIS sheep. HE is the Mercy Seat.
 
The Qur’an can be translated into any language, too. But the full meaning of nothing can be embedded in a translation to any language–the interpreter must make choices, and often can only offer one possible meaning of the text while the original may contain many. You don’t find people reading Shakespeare in other languages, for instance, and grasping what the English speaking world can appreciate from it, right?

Moreover, the Qur’an, though it has been preserved in written form, was revealed and presented orally, and then memorized. People might have made mistakes in their notes. Or offered commentary, that someone might mistake for Qur’an. Example, in one person’s notes, an ayah says something meaning “guard the middle prayer.” And someone in their notes put the عصر prayer, a specific one of the five which is performed in the afternoon. It’s important that nobody think the Qur’an wasn’t clear on this matter or that nobody knows what actually was revealed. Because everyone knows what the Qur’an says (they all memorized it) and anything else is just interpretation. An early form of commentary even.

But people transmitted their “notes” orally as well. They’re collected now into books of تفسير tafseer. The proof of the Qur’an is that you can go to any one who has memorized it, anywhere in the world, and they’ll recite you the same Qur’an, with an unbroken chain of their teachers going back to the Prophet Muhammad.

But the proof for the consistency of the Qur’an in written form is available as well. The book Ulum Al Qur’an is a good book on that subject.
All these words of yours mean nothing.

Show us the notes of Mohammad’s companions so we can compare.

The manuscripts of the Sana’a Quran show progression-the Quran was developed ovr time after Mohammad’s death…

Only after muslims allow the Quran to be studied critically to the depth the Bible has been studied can you say there is any proof of the Quran.

Actually all this might prove is that it is infact there has been no change. This will not prove it is from GOD.
 

But the proof for the consistency of the Qur’an in written form is available as well. …
Since we are back on the “the-only-true-Koran-is-in-Arabic” debate, I re-post my previous for the benefit of new-comers:
Consider Old English of the Middle Ages with Modern English today:
In Old English:
Here bygynneth the Book of the Tales of Caunterbury
Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open eye-
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.

In Modern English:
Here begins the Book of the Tales of Cantebury
When in April the sweet showers fall
That pierce March’s drought to the root and all
And bathed every vein in liquor that has power
To generate therein and sire the flower;
When Zephyr also has with his sweet breath,
Filled again, in every holt and heath,
The tender shoots and leaves, and the young sun
His half-course in the sign of the Ram has run,
And many little birds make melody
That sleep through all the night with open eye
(So Nature pricks them on to ramp and rage)
Then folk do long to go on pilgrimage,
And palmers to go seeking out strange strands,
To distant shrines well known in distant lands.
And specially from every shire’s end
Of England they to Canterbury went,
The holy blessed martyr there to seek
Who helped them when they lay so ill and weak.
So the Bible “changed” to keep up with the language that people spoke so that it would be understandable to those who are living now.

To claim that any language, including Arabic, is exempt from change in 1,400 years is the height of the absurd. In fact, if the Koran has not changed to keep up with the vernacular, we can say it is no longer the perfect word of Allah because it is less understandable, and the less understandable it is, the less perfect it is; and to the extent it is still understandable, it is to fewer and fewer people. Eventually, the language it is in will become essentially extinct, and then NO ONE will understand it. Ironically, Muslims take pride in this by claiming the only true Koran is in Arabic. So the Muslim claim that it is the “perfect word of Allah”, as if to gain some prestige through membership in an exclusive club by excluding non-Arabic speakers [including most Muslims, BTW], is thus refuted and exposed for what it is.
 
Just to prove you wrong, as a student of Arabic now, trust me, the Qur’an doesn’t need to be changed in order to be understood.

While Arabs today don’t typically speak in their vernacular the way the ancient Arabs did, the formal language is still very much alive. I know because I have to speak it on a daily basis.

The language has been preserved as well as the book. Miraculously, even. Personally, I think some people are just jealous that their book isn’t available in its original form.
 
All these words of yours mean nothing.

Show us the notes of Mohammad’s companions so we can compare.

The manuscripts of the Sana’a Quran show progression-the Quran was developed ovr time after Mohammad’s death…

Only after muslims allow the Quran to be studied critically to the depth the Bible has been studied can you say there is any proof of the Quran.

Actually all this might prove is that it is infact there has been no change. This will not prove it is from GOD.
Someone must have misinformed you about Qur’anic manuscripts.
Try a website: islamic-awareness.org. They’ve got a good section on Qur’anic manuscripts.
 
Actually, I tend to agree that the language in the Koran never changed. The reason is simple. The last authority who enforced the last copy made it so that no one will ever alter it or change it or consider any other translation as more valid. To ensure this people were told that the Koranic language:Arab is the very language of God and/or the original language. Just think how effective this is to make sure you discourage any tendency for relying on translation. Muslims are thought that even the Last Judgment will be conducted in Arabic.
Now, with this setting, not only the language in Koran is preserved, but it enforce its on Muslims wherever they are. Other languages are basically discouraged and assumed as unimportant. And this is not only other Arabic dialects, but other languages in the Muslim world as well. It is clear that the power of its conservation is simply the power of fear. Actually even those Muslims who don’t know it yet would, under these circumstances, want to learn it.

However, knowing that God’s language is Truth, not Arabic (or any other human language), is the beginning of realizing what we are faced with here. You realize that the only requirement to communicate with God is a clean heart, a pure conscience, and the Holy Spirit. With such an assistance, you can understand the Letter (written Word) of God as well as God’s message in various aspects of real life. You don’t need to dig the past to know what God is telling you now. God is not in the Past, God is in the Present. His name is I Am not I Was. We read things of the past to strengthen our bonds with our brothers and sisters of the Past as we learn our origins through their languages and cultures. But our heads should not be burred in the past while our bodies are here. When we do this, we miss out on life and reality which are happening right now with God who is here right now with us. This is the faith that is alive; faith in the living God. It is not like God sent a letter from a far far away land, and we will hear about him again on the Judgment Day. Well, this is true for those who set themselves away, but it is not be true for everyone.

I love this verse from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It set me free some while ago:
108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book”. Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open (our) minds to understand the Scriptures."74
God bless
 
Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 website. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Koran. But, to submit to Allah, it is necessary to know his will, and where do you find it but in the Koran? “Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Koran and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. A Muslim told me that an Islamic scholar would explain it to me. OK. In what language will he explain it? He would have to use Arabic because, according to the same Muslim, “Only Arabic can convey the true meanings and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses.” Since I don’t know Arabic, I wouldn’t understand what the scholar was saying or what to believe; but according to them, I would be a “believer” nevertheless. How can you believe dogma you don’t understand? Since you can’t get there unless you’ve been there before, it’s a catch 22.

Most Muslims don’t speak Arabic, and I would proffer that, since the only true Koran is in Arabic [ancient at that], they don’t really know that what they believe is something other than what the Koran says. In fact, they would not ever know what it says because, as the site says, there is a big difference between what the Arabic Koran says and what a translation of it says. This would include non-Arabic explanations of the Koran by Islamic scholars.

Muslims claim that recitation preserves the original Koran. This might be true, but it does not preserve the understanding of it. Again, consider the Old English version of the Canterbury Tales above. How many English speaking people would understand it if it were recited to them? Very few, and the few who do are getting fewer. How do we know that the ancient Arabic is exempt from the same forces that changed English?
 
After various researching, I am concluding that Mohammad was trying to be for the Arabs What Moses was for the Jews. I think he noted that Arabs are children of Abraham from Hagar, just as Israelis are children of Abraham from Sarah.
Just as Israelis had a great Prophet who helped them to keep their nation and built a prestige for them, so God too must be calling someone among the Arabs to do a similar task for the Arabs. And he did. He united the lost, barbarian, and idolatrous Arabs into one nation, one creed, and one law.
He seemed to be playing Moses and Joshua for the Arabs. Only he did not know where he was going beside that that he had to free his people from idolatry and unite them under one God.

But then he got a terribly deformed idea of God. A God who look worse that the ‘God’ of the Old Testament. I think this is what can be expected of a descendant of a slave woman and who does not see anything wrong with slavery and polygamy. If Abraham was not sinful in exploiting Hagar, then God must be okay with it. If God is okay with it, what do you get from this?
If Abraham was perfect, so we must be like Abraham:
Abraham was involved with four women, so it’s godly to marry four women
Abraham had slaves, so it’s godly to have slaves
Abraham sent Hagar away, so it’s okay to divorce or send away.

Clearly the Arabian Christian heretics around Mohammad did not know or did not clarify enough for him that Abraham was great but not perfect. He made mistakes we should not imitate. But now, every Muslim is basically stuck in the times of Abraham or of Mohammad. Can you be more perfect than Mohammad?

For Muslims: Do you really believe that Mohammad or any Prophet you acknowledge is perfect? If yes, isn’t this prophet God since only God is perfect? if not, if no Prophet is perfect, can’t God make you more perfect than any other Prophet? if not why? if yes, how do you know that you are still in the ways of God if you had passed the standard of the most perfect Prophet you acknowledge?

For Christians: I believe we have a great duty to learn and live out our Faith. Love is our Faith. Like Marry, we must magnify the Lord. If we don’t do it, our Muslim brothers will never see that there is better ways and therefore their ‘perfect’ doctrine is not perfect because there are better things. Only love can show these better things and magnify them in real life.
It’s cool that you’re trying to be peaceful and everything. Muhammad was just a guy who was recieved nice “revelations” when people were for him and changed them and received violent “Revelations” when they suited his purposes.
 
Someone must have misinformed you about Qur’anic manuscripts.
Try a website: islamic-awareness.org. They’ve got a good section on Qur’anic manuscripts.
Muslim apologists- that is not critical analysis.

It has been said that the New Testament of the Holy Bible could be reproduced [except for a few verses] from the writtings of the early Church fathers.

Can the same be said about the Quran?

Also there are too many hadith reporting chapters with missing verses. Then there is that whole satanic verses issue- an issue brought up by someon ethat was killed for telling the truth?

No matter really because there is only one way to prove that a Book is from GOD and the Quran just doesn’t fit the bill.

Very detailed prophecies and said prophecies fufilled along with miracles and eyewitnesses to the miracles.
 
Just to prove you wrong, as a student of Arabic now, trust me, the Qur’an doesn’t need to be changed in order to be understood.

While Arabs today don’t typically speak in their vernacular the way the ancient Arabs did, the formal language is still very much alive. I know because I have to speak it on a daily basis.
What percentage of Muslims worldwide understand the ancient Arabic?
…Personally, I think some people are just jealous that their book isn’t available in its original form.
Muslims have told me the original Koran is in heaven. If that is true it is just as inaccessible as the original Bible, so there is nothing to be jealous of.
 
It has been said that the New Testament of the Holy Bible could be reproduced [except for a few verses] from the writtings of the early Church fathers.
Well, there’s this whole scholarly tradition that’s been painstakingly trying to piece together the best approximation of the “original” version of the NT over the past 2 or 3 hundred years so I don’t think that would be necessary if what you wrote is true.
Can the same be said about the Quran?
I’m pretty sure that old versions of the Koran exist which differ from the accepted version. I don’t think there is anything about the history of the Koran that shows it is immune to the same vulnerabilities of textual transmission that affected every text in the ancient world, religious or non-religious.
 
Well, there’s this whole scholarly tradition that’s been painstakingly trying to piece together the best approximation of the “original” version of the NT over the past 2 or 3 hundred years so I don’t think that would be necessary if what you wrote is true.
That is our nature though- to search and study and critque-test for the truth.

I have been told that in Islam ia person is not encouraged to test for the truth.
005.101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

angelfire.com/sc3/myredeemer/Evidencep9.html
*Irenaeus continues in Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 3, that he “had the preaching of the Apostles still echoing in his ears and their doctrine in front of his eyes.”

He quotes from:

Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, I Corinthians, I Peter, Hebrews and Titus

Ignatius (AD 70-110) was the Bishop of Antioch and was martyred. He knew well the apostles His seven epistles contain quotations from:

Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, I Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Galatians, Colossians, James, I and II Thessalonians, I and II Timothy, and I Peter

Polycarp (AD 70-156), martyred at 86 years of age, was Bishop of Smyrna and a disciple of the apostle John.

Among others who quoted from the New Testament were Barnabus (ca AD 70), Hermas (ca AD 95), Tatian (ca AD 170), and Irenaeus (ca AD 170).

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-212). 2,400 of his quotes are from all but three books of the New Testament.

Tertullian (AD 160-220) was a presbyter of the Church in Carthage and quotes the New Testament more than 7,000 times, of which 3,800 are from the Gospels.

Hippolytus (AD 170-235) has more than 1,300 references.

Justin Martyr (AD 133) battled the heretic Marcion.

Origen (AD 185-253 or 254). This vociferous writer compiled more than 6,000 works. He lists more than 18,000 New Testament quotes.*
I’m pretty sure that old versions of the Koran exist which differ from the accepted version. I don’t think there is anything about the history of the Koran that shows it is immune to the same vulnerabilities of textual transmission that affected every text in the ancient world, religious or non-religious.
Can the same be said about the Quran?

The question was asking are there early muslim fathers like our early Church fathers that quote the Quran?
 
Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 website. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Koran. But, to submit to Allah, it is necessary to know his will, and where do you find it but in the Koran? “Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Koran and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. A Muslim told me that an Islamic scholar would explain it to me. OK. In what language will he explain it? He would have to use Arabic because, according to the same Muslim, “Only Arabic can convey the true meanings and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses.” Since I don’t know Arabic, I wouldn’t understand what the scholar was saying or what to believe; but according to them, I would be a “believer” nevertheless. How can you believe dogma you don’t understand? Since you can’t get there unless you’ve been there before, it’s a catch 22.

Most Muslims don’t speak Arabic, and I would proffer that, since the only true Koran is in Arabic [ancient at that], they don’t really know that what they believe is something other than what the Koran says. In fact, they would not ever know what it says because, as the site says, there is a big difference between what the Arabic Koran says and what a translation of it says. This would include non-Arabic explanations of the Koran by Islamic scholars.

Muslims claim that recitation preserves the original Koran. This might be true, but it does not preserve the understanding of it. Again, consider the Old English version of the Canterbury Tales above. How many English speaking people would understand it if it were recited to them? Very few, and the few who do are getting fewer. How do we know that the ancient Arabic is exempt from the same forces that changed English?
Imagine if the English language were built on the Canterbury Tales? That Chaucer’s English became the standard form of English, and dictionaries were made based on Chaucer’s writings and the people from his hometown.

Arabic language has been preserved in this way. There are some very good Arabic dictionaries which appeared soon after the Qur’an, as it had been spreading throughout the region to lands where people weren’t fluent in Arabic, and some didn’t speak it at all. But everyone started learning the Qur’an, and learning with it, the Arabic of it.

I myself have had the pleasure (or misfortune, depending on one’s perspective) to study grammatical texts (in Arabic) that are 700+ and 800+ years old. Texts that have been around for the study of Arabic since before Chaucer was even born. And that are still used today. People have to read Chaucer in translation to understand it, whereas I was reading these texts in their original Arabic to study Arabic grammar, just like it had been studied 700 and 800 years ago and more. The older text was based on one which had been written before it, that I haven’t studied.

So what’s special about the Qur’an is that the text has been preserved, the meaning has been preserved (through the commentaries and ahadith), and even the language has been preserved.
 
What percentage of Muslims worldwide understand the ancient Arabic?

Muslims have told me the original Koran is in heaven. If that is true it is just as inaccessible as the original Bible, so there is nothing to be jealous of.
لوح محفوظ is where all of God’s revelations are preserved, in Heaven.

But what was revealed to Muhammad is preserved on earth, too.
 
There has been corrupted Qurans found. One that I know of. It was also written over other text to rewrite it. It was found in the mosgue of Sarna, in Yemen. They believe it was written and rewritten 70yrs after Muhammad’s death.
 
Just to prove you wrong, as a student of Arabic now, trust me, the Qur’an doesn’t need to be changed in order to be understood.

While Arabs today don’t typically speak in their vernacular the way the ancient Arabs did, the formal language is still very much alive. I know because I have to speak it on a daily basis.

The language has been preserved as well as the book. Miraculously, even. Personally, I think some people are just jealous that their book isn’t available in its original form.
Maybe not change the Quran but the way it is taught? Some of the meanings of certain words are questionable- if taken as explained by muslims the Quran is incorrect. Such as the word for the unlettered prophet. Muslims say it is Mohammad- it in no way fits Mohammad.- fits Jesus like a glove:

7.157: “Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.”

And the bit about the Quran not confirming the Holy Bible- obvious to all that infact it does.

There are also those initial letters- has anyone figured those out yet?

How do you feel about a reformation in Islam?
yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm

Not sure what you mean the New Testament is availabe in it’s original greek.
 
لوح محفوظ is where all of God’s revelations are preserved, in Heaven.

But what was revealed to Muhammad is preserved on earth, too.
These are only personal beliefs, not facts, because there is no original Koran to compare the current Koran with any more than there are original Gospels. You can believe anything you want about the existence of books in heaven, but the closest you have on earth is the Yemeni manuscripts which are not the same as the modern Koran. Yemenis even had to hire kaffir scholars to translate the manuscripts from ancient Arabic to modern, which proves my point that even Arabic has changed over the last 1,400 years. Then you have Caliph Uthman who had a Koran produced because various Muslim communities had begun to recite and write down their own versions with differences. He ordered all other manuscripts to be burned.

So we can see that even in such a short period of time after Mohammed that differences in Arabic were creeping into the Koran, both orally and written. For all their accusations that the Bible had been written by men with ulterior motives, what do Muslims have to offer? A Koran written by men with ulterior motives.
 
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