My wife will never submit to me...should that matter?

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OK, so just a tad of background. When my wife and I married neither of us were Christian. I came back to a childhood (protestant) faith later on. I also later converted to Catholicism. Through the years I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff (changing jobs often, dropping out of college when I could easily have finished, porn, et al). Also, my wife is a pretty smart cookie.

OK, so forward to now. My wife is still not a Christian. She is embittered because of the stupid stuff I’ve done and how I haven’t loved her as I should (at times I’ve been a downright jerk). She thinks I’m stupid (and being honest, rightfully so). All this being said, I don’t think she’ll ever submit to me as her husband. She will always try to “rule the roost”. I can fight with her and get her to back down on some things, but therein lies my query. Should it matter?

Here is what I mean. Obviously I can’t change her mind. Also, if I do try to “make the decisions”, she gets upset. Jesus said that one desiring to be the leader, should become the servant. Should I take that to mean that I should let her make most of the decisions (unless they are against my faith) thereby demonstrating the way? Or put another way, should I “lead by example?”
There is no way to judge what went on or is going on in your marriage. Since there were past hurts by her towards you, then I would suggest you both see a marriage counselor to get your marriage on track. You also need “lead by example” which is your own words. Marriage is a much for complex relationship that can’t be boiled down to who is the head or boss and who “submits”. Thankfully the Catholic Church does not micromanage marital relationships, unlike a number of evangelical/fundamentalist try to do. start being a loving husband to your wife, try to heal the past hurts.
 
Submit??? She’s not the problem, buddy… Why is she still with you???
Strangely enough, I agree with this wholeheartedly. She should leave him immediately, and run him through the divorce meatgrinder to the fullest extent possible. It’s a form of tough love. Two years from now, he’ll almost certainly be much happier, healthier and wealthier without her, and he’ll be watching her life and lifestyle collapse from a distance.

I’ve seen this more times than I can count among friends and relatives. What seems to be horrible is often, in hindsight, the best gift one can ever receive.
 
Okay, so this thread has gotten a bit off track…

To answer the OP, it sounds like you want to change the dynamic of your relationship but that you have a wife who doesn’t trust you, and by your own admission, she’s justified in that.

So start being a man that she can trust! Follow through with what you say you’ll do, dedicate yourself to being as well informed as you can about decisions to show that you want to make the best one possible, be responsible and excel in your professional life, be responsible at home, etc. After you’ve proven yourself for awhile, take on more responsibility. Then talk to your wife about your relationship dynamic and what you want to change. If you feel emasculated or unwanted, tell her. Try to work through this together as a couple. If you can’t seem to make headway, counseling could help you with your communication and trust issues.
 
eeriechallenge said:

“Of course it’s her fault. She’s in rebellion against her husband, is breaking her wedding vows, and is revealing herself to be a dishonorable and unworthy person. If the original poster doesn’t have kids, he should think seriously about a separation.”

The OP has a track record of bad decisions: dropping out of college unnecessarily, a lot of job changes, porn. He also mentions that he has been “stupid” and a “jerk” to his wife. His changes of religion were undoubtedly good things, but for his wife, it all forms a pattern of him impulsively jumping around making bad decisions and dragging his family through hell.

I think the OP is capable of being a better person and learning to make better decisions and have a good marriage, but he’s not going to get full credit just for good intentions and it’s not going to happen overnight. He needs to establish a solid track record of good, solid, thoughtful decision-making.

A good marriage is not going to mean switching over from her making all the decisions to him making all the decisions, but switching over to a more cooperative, collaborative style. If they learn to do that, they’ll then have the benefit of both of their insights, not just his or not just hers.

Example: In my family, my husband cares NOTHING for how things look. We recently bought a house that was pink, pink, pink because it was a good deal. I did that with the intention that we would renovate as money became available. I thought that was VERY clear–I do not intend to spend the rest of my life living in Barbie’s Dream House. My husband, on the other hand, thinks everything is fine and he thinks we should save for the kids’ college first. Well, as our youngest is 1, that could easily mean 20 years of living with pink kitchen countertops. Now, we should have been clearer with each other when buying the house what we each envisioned. I thought I was being very clear, what with my piles of home design magazines and talk of renovations. My husband, however, somehow imagined that I was going to be able to renovate the entire house using my $30 a month blow money, whereas the actual renovation will probably cost mid-five figures–$40,000 is 30 years of daily lattes, by my calculations. We had a number of fairly loud talks about this. Ultimately, after doing some actual math about the kids’ college, we came up with the following compromise: we will attempt to save $10,000 a year for college, and any surplus in excess of that will be available for renovations. Now, we may not hit that $10,000 (we’ve never managed to consistently save that much before), but I’m OK with the plan, as it means that we don’t have to spend the next 20 years saving for college and only then start doing anything about the 20±year-old pink carpet on the stairs.

Your disagreements will be different than ours, but the general principle is that both of you need to get at least some of what you want, on a reasonable timetable.

Best wishes!
 
@RPRPsych:

No, Hindus, Muslims and Christians are all monogamous as per Indian law. Joseph Smith, on the other hand…

So, you’re a bigot. That’s fine, but your hatred against my religious/ethnic group has what to do with the original poster, asking for help? The answer, of course, is nothing.

I objected to your shilling an “alpha male sex” book

That wasn’t me. Thank you.

Your advice to your fellow Catholic, who comes here asking for help, that he should double down and do “more of the same” is not good advice, it’s not sound, and is anti-Catholic. It’s the sort of **** that feminists on Jezebel give.
you do not need to be rude here. it is difficult to give blanket marital advice over the internet when none of us know them. The type of advice you gave isn’t even supported anywhere in Catholic thinking and theology. No one anywhere can give black and white marital advice like you gave and suggested.
 
eeriechallenger said:

“Two years from now, he’ll almost certainly be much happier, healthier and wealthier without her, and he’ll be watching her life and lifestyle collapse from a distance.”

I think you’re importing all sorts of things from your personal experience that are not in the OP. Remember:
  1. He says he’s made a lot of bad decisions, that he’s been stupid and a jerk.
  2. He says she’s a smart cookie.
Which of them do you think is going to manage better without the other?
 
you do not need to be rude here. it is difficult to give blanket marital advice over the internet when none of us know them. The type of advice you gave isn’t even supported anywhere in Catholic thinking and theology. No one anywhere can give black and white marital advice like you gave and suggested.
Ephesians 5:22-33 is not a part of “Catholic thinking and theology” [sic]?
 
Here is what I mean. Obviously I can’t change her mind. Also, if I do try to “make the decisions”, she gets upset. Jesus said that one desiring to be the leader, should become the servant. Should I take that to mean that I should let her make most of the decisions (unless they are against my faith) thereby demonstrating the way? Or put another way, should I “lead by example?”
I think what you need to work on first is making your relationship stronger. Leave the questions about who is submissive to whom for later. At this point, your description of your marriage seems so dysfunctional that it’s a wonder you’re still living under the same roof.
 
People lead by example, and if your trying to lead, then those that follow will look at how you lead, if your example of leading seem improper , illegal , or down right stupid ,
Then can you really blame them for not taking your advise or leadership ?
If your Wife /. Partner is half intelligent ,and smarter than you, then follow her lead…
There’s nothing wrong with being third in charge in a two person relationship…
Yes, as a husband it is definitely necessary to fix problems with yourself as well in order for the headship to work, but ultimately you must regain the headship. Both through self improvement and establishing your leadership. Both are necessary for it to succeed. If she has no respect for you then it isn’t going to be easy.

MMSL addresses all of these issues and first focuses on fixing your problems first.
 
👍

These are words to live by.

The posters who recommended that “get laid a lot” book ought to be ashamed. They are debasing the Catholic concept of marriage and substituting a pagan, sexualized ideology for it. :mad:
Nonsense, it is not a “get laid a lot book” it addresses many aspects of a relationship to improve it. Sex is part of the book because sex is an important part of marriage.

Both of these are true, establish mutual love and respect in the relationship which includes both parties fixing their issues, not just the man. And it requires husbands to be the head of the family, which is something that will not happen overnight.

Ephesians 5:22
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:28
In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Stay away from modern “feminist” relationship advice that wants to always put the blame only on the man and works for a female headship., which is contrary to Christianity.

Had the roles been reversed here and if the woman had done something even worse like had an affair, everyone would be coming to her defense, but notice how it is different when a man has done something wrong. They tell her to leave, LOL.

Through MMSL you will learn a lot about people like this, feminists and their white knight champions.

Read this following topic about a man who’s wife had an affair and is now pregnant with another man’s child. Just about everyone is rushing to defend her and keep the marriage together. Had the man been the culprit I am pretty sure the responses would be different

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=870532
 
not as a club like you are doing.
So, scripture is only scripture when you agree with it? Interesting! I did not know Catholics felt this way. What other commandments are optional in your interpretation?
 
So, scripture is only scripture when you agree with it? Interesting! I did not know Catholics felt this way. What other commandments are optional in your interpretation?
you know, you seem to have an aggressive edge here. I didn’t say that any particular verse in the Bible was optional and I think you are trying to derail this thread. One can quote the Bible which in mormonism is second to your other holy books till they are blue in the face but using verses as clubs on others in giving blanket marital advice is pretty abusive in it of itself.
 
Who is using scripture as a club? Scripture calls for the husband to have headship of the family while at the same time having love and respect for his wife.
 
Who is using scripture as a club? Scripture calls for the husband to have headship of the family while at the same time having love and respect for his wife.
It has been very interesting to see the people on Catholic answers admit that the commandments of Jesus and the wisdom of St. Paul do not apply if these commandments go against their “feelings” or their radical feminist opinions. Is this the official position of the Catholic church, or is it some sort of weird innovation that is specific to this forum? I have to assume it’s the latter, but am not so sure at this point.
 
Who is using scripture as a club? Scripture calls for the husband to have headship of the family while at the same time having love and respect for his wife.
this is the problem here. someone that none us know personally gets on the internet looking for marital advice. he already admits that he has caused pain and hurt in his marriage and that there are issues. The best thing for everyone here to to suggest him (and most posters have already done this) to continue to work on trust with his wife, seek out face to face marital help and realize that the so called submission quotes people want to use, also mean that he has to learn to die to himself and leadership mean more about service to another than being some “king” in the home. Having well meaning or even not so well meaning posters coming on and encouraging Op to be the man and boss, isn’t going to help him in his relationship with his wife.
 
Nonsense, it is not a “get laid a lot book” it addresses many aspects of a relationship to improve it. Sex is part of the book because sex is an important part of marriage.
I’m just quoting from the author’s home page here:

"Happily married. Laid like tile." (his self-description).

Would St. Joseph ever describe himself in such terms?

Chapters on “sexy moves”, “sexting” and “rough stuff”.

Ugh. How could anyone think this was compatible with Catholic teaching?

**Athol discovered that he could cross over pickup artist advice to married men and they started getting more sex in their marriages. **

Do you know what “pickup artist advice” is, and how morally repulsive it is?

But if you want to defend this stuff, well…wait for it, “Who am I to judge?” 😛
Both of these are true, establish mutual love and respect in the relationship which includes both parties fixing their issues, not just the man. And it requires husbands to be the head of the family, which is something that will not happen overnight.
Ephesians 5:22
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:28
In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
This is true. That doesn’t mean we should tell the OP to read trashy books or divorce his wife. Again, what would St. Joseph do? St. Louis (he had a high-spirited wife)? Bl. Louis Martin?
Stay away from modern “feminist” relationship advice that wants to always put the blame only on the man and works for a female headship., which is contrary to Christianity.
Straw man. I have never quoted any feminist material. I merely object to un-Catholic material. There is an authentic, Christian way to assert one’s headship - nay, even to rebuke an erring wife. But your “alpha game plan” is not it.
Had the roles been reversed here and if the woman had done something even worse like had an affair, everyone would be coming to her defense, but notice how it is different when a man has done something wrong. They tell her to leave, LOL.
Through MMSL you will learn a lot about people like this, feminists and their white knight champions.
Read this following topic about a man who’s wife had an affair and is now pregnant with another man’s child. Just about everyone is rushing to defend her and keep the marriage together. Had the man been the culprit I am pretty sure the responses would be different
Non sequitur. Again, you’re ascribing views to me that I’ve never expressed.

If this is what the “Married Man Sex Life” programme does to a man, I’m glad I’m not part of it. 🙂
 
this is the problem here. someone that none us know personally gets on the internet looking for marital advice. he already admits that he has caused pain and hurt in his marriage and that there are issues. The best thing for everyone here to to suggest him (and most posters have already done this) to continue to work on trust with his wife, seek out face to face marital help and realize that the so called submission quotes people want to use, also mean that he has to learn to die to himself and leadership mean more about service to another than being some “king” in the home. Having well meaning or even not so well meaning posters coming on and encouraging Op to be the man and boss, isn’t going to help him in his relationship with his wife.
MMSL is all about owning your mistakes and changing yourself, but within the frame of a proper Christian marriage. Marital advice counselors will typically have female centric advice outside of this.

Him becoming more masculine and dominant (not abusive) will indeed help his relationship. Just read their forums and this works for so many people, it did foe me very quickly. Society keeps trying to tell men to be wimps and submissive to their wives but this is horrible advice.

Yes fix your problems, love and serve your wife, but from within a frame of strength, leadership and masculinity.
 
It has been very interesting to see the people on Catholic answers admit that the commandments of Jesus and the wisdom of St. Paul do not apply if these commandments go against their “feelings” or their radical feminist opinions. Is this the official position of the Catholic church, or is it some sort of weird innovation that is specific to this forum? I have to assume it’s the latter, but am not so sure at this point.
leadership is the home is more about dying to oneself and serving another. THAT is real leadership, It is not demanding submission based on a couple quotes from ST. Paul. Jesus example of leadership at the last supper was to wash everyone’s feet. It is service not demanding submission. Demanding submission is what radical islam is. Leadership is about self-sacrificing love and giving up one’s life. You used St. Paul as a club. Now you want to back out of it in claiming that this view is some feminist idea. This is all kinda curious considering your mormon faith and coming onto a Catholic forum and say the kinda things you are saying and implying.
 
@RPRPsych:

No, Hindus, Muslims and Christians are all monogamous as per Indian law. Joseph Smith, on the other hand…

So, you’re a bigot. That’s fine, but your hatred against my religious/ethnic group has what to do with the original poster, asking for help? The answer, of course, is nothing.
Surely you will admit that one’s theology of marriage influences the answers one gives.

The Mormon view of marriage is incompatible with the Catholic one.
I objected to your shilling an “alpha male sex” book
That wasn’t me. Thank you.
You did say it was a great book. 🙂
Your advice to your fellow Catholic, who comes here asking for help, that he should double down and do “more of the same” is not good advice, it’s not sound, and is anti-Catholic. It’s the sort of **** that feminists on Jezebel give.
Straw man. Where did I say he should do “more of the same”? I merely did not want him to receive lousy advice. And by the way, thanks for using profanity. Wit seeks its own level. 😃
 
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