H
holy_face
Guest
which Catholic teaching would that be? I thought Catholicism was Christian.
- Status
H
holy_face
Guest
what are you talking about? Men’s leadership in a marriage is the same as rape and slavery? LOL!
H
holy_face
Guest
Exactly, some of the language and topics on sexuality can be a bit crude but if those are things that will offend you and perhaps lead you to sin then maybe it is best to avoid the book.
But all it is about is making your marriage better and improving yourself, it works for tons of people. The sex is about increasing the frequency and quality of sex between spouses. I don’t see what is wrong with that, wouldn’t that be better if they focused their attraction on each other instead of porn for example? Stay away from the stuff that personally find offensive, i was put off by some of it myself, but I am an adult and can see value in something that is not 100% agreeable to me.
The people threatened most by are it of course are feminists and their white knight champions who think the opposite of scripture, female led marriages, are the answer. Well after several decades of feminism and female led marriages I think there is plenty of evidence this is a disaster.
Nobody, certainly not me, is suggesting that a husband led marriage should be abusive in any form or manner, the same scripture says to love and honor your wives.
This is guy talk and not really intended for women and beta type submissive males. Too many guys today do not get the guy talk anymore because they don’t have strong father figures. It can’t be substituted by women and weak men. Sometime a young guy needs to have some guy talk with more experienced guys.
R
robwar
Guest
THANK-YOU! this is exactly what I was trying to speak to in my posts. A couple of posters and one of them not even CAtholic take a couple of verses by St. Paul and use that as an excuse for a fundamentalist literalism of these verses. And neither of them have even defined what submission means or even in a marriage with someone they don’t know over the internet. The literalists interpetation of wives submitting to their husbands is only found in fundamentalist groups which try to micro manage the relationship in marriage under the guise of biblical. It isn’t biblical or even really Christian but borders on Islamic ideas of men and women and how they should relate in marriage. I know what I am talking about since I did attend Bill Gothard seminars many many moons ago. This is the problem in the asking of relationship advice over the internet. Some of us can point out surface things but the best thing for Op to do is find a competetant marital counselor and go from there. One or two posters that don’t know Op and his wife and are not even trained marriage and family therapists should not be giving authoritative ideas.
H
holy_face
Guest
The scripture could not be more clear, the husband is the leader of the family but must do so with love and devotion to them. That is not a fundamentalist interpretation, it is what it says, it is not that complicated.
R
robwar
Guest
Op needs to work this out with his wife, If he needs help he needs to seek that from the local church or a therapist face to face. There are different kinds of leadership as well as submission. Unless, one is a licensed marriage therapist themselves, they can only point to one or give direction. Leadership is serving another, St. Paul also said in ephesians to submit to one another. Your suggested books and ideas do not encompass all of scripture. St Paul also wrote that the husband was to lay down his life like Christ for his wife. Again you are not looking at all of scripture and are using non-Catholic sources for your ideas.
H
holy_face
Guest
All of of that is still within him having headship of the family, you can lay down your life for your wife and sacrifice for her and still be the leader, it does not make the leadership go away, having the leadership actually enhances one’s ability to do all of that.
A licensed marriage therapist is certainly not concerned with any scripture or their faith at all, it’s usually feminist dominated. It is usually less Catholic oriented than the book I suggested.
R
robwar
Guest
My husband is a licenced Marriage and family therapist and itsn’t feminist dominated. please stop the false generalizations. meeting with someone face to face is much better than asking and getting anonomous advice from well-meaning but unqualified people that don’t know you from a hole in the wall. None of us on this thread have to full story here and Op hasn’t come back on to clarify the situation. for all we know this could be a troll and we are all spinning wheels here.
H
holy_face
Guest
or you could do both and see what actually works for you
X
Xantippe
Guest
Estevao quoted the following:
“Specifically, if men did all of what the researchers characterized as feminine chores like folding laundry, cooking or vacuuming — the kinds of things many women say they want their husbands to do — then couples had sex 1.5 fewer times per month than those with husbands who did what were considered masculine chores, like taking out the trash or fixing the car.”
We’re just finishing up a day of household chores and I have a few thoughts on why that might be.
For one thing, one or more of the “laundry, cooking or vacuuming” category may be something that the wife actually enjoys and does not want to share. I know I don’t actually want to share laundry with my husband and I have at least one friend who loves to cook.
If I had an hour of my husband’s time to spend as I wished, I would definitely not have him do laundry. I’d want him to either do something with the kids or do other tasks that I either can’t do or don’t want to do. For instance today, he fixed some kid books, did some shoe repair, fixed a ceiling fan, stopped up some holes in the outside of the house that vermin could climb into, hosed down a high chair outside, inflated the tires of a stroller, and did some other stuff. It was a busy, busy, busy day. (I was mainly employed with kid management and feeding, room cleaning supervision, laundry and grocery shopping.) A couple of days ago, he and the kids spent three hours one evening assembling a play kitchen. Now, theoretically, he could have taken care of the kids while I wrangled the hundreds of pieces of play kitchen or puzzled over the question of how to get the ceiling fan to work, but I think that would not have been a good use of our various talents.
It also occurs to me that both vacuuming and cooking are easily outsourced jobs, so they may be less valued by wives.
“Specifically, if men did all of what the researchers characterized as feminine chores like folding laundry, cooking or vacuuming — the kinds of things many women say they want their husbands to do — then couples had sex 1.5 fewer times per month than those with husbands who did what were considered masculine chores, like taking out the trash or fixing the car.”
We’re just finishing up a day of household chores and I have a few thoughts on why that might be.
For one thing, one or more of the “laundry, cooking or vacuuming” category may be something that the wife actually enjoys and does not want to share. I know I don’t actually want to share laundry with my husband and I have at least one friend who loves to cook.
If I had an hour of my husband’s time to spend as I wished, I would definitely not have him do laundry. I’d want him to either do something with the kids or do other tasks that I either can’t do or don’t want to do. For instance today, he fixed some kid books, did some shoe repair, fixed a ceiling fan, stopped up some holes in the outside of the house that vermin could climb into, hosed down a high chair outside, inflated the tires of a stroller, and did some other stuff. It was a busy, busy, busy day. (I was mainly employed with kid management and feeding, room cleaning supervision, laundry and grocery shopping.) A couple of days ago, he and the kids spent three hours one evening assembling a play kitchen. Now, theoretically, he could have taken care of the kids while I wrangled the hundreds of pieces of play kitchen or puzzled over the question of how to get the ceiling fan to work, but I think that would not have been a good use of our various talents.
It also occurs to me that both vacuuming and cooking are easily outsourced jobs, so they may be less valued by wives.
H
holy_face
Guest
I personally vacuum and do dishes and things like that to help out, we both work so that is a situation where you can’t just let the wife assume all of those things on her own. She needs help from time to time even with traditional “womanly” duties.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
If one has a fundamentalist protestant mindset – one will read it that way.
Below is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on marriage. Take note – and let it sink in. In a Catholic marriage – the husband and wife – are to be subject (submit) to one another out of reverence to Christ. The husband subject to the wife – the wife to the husband-- It is not a one way street.
You will not find in the CCC – the husband given “headship/leadership”.
H
holy_face
Guest
Nonsense, scripture is part of the infallible doctrine of the church, it is possible for the two statements to be true at the same time, you can submit yourself to each other and still have the husband have the headship, it is not a call to an egalitarian marriage.
Lets take a look at all of the passages mentioning the headship of the husband, it is quite a few.
openbible.info/topics/headship
The catechism doesn’t describe in absolute detail all of the doctrine of the church but is a summary and often topics are presented in a politically correct manor. I am one who believes the Church has failed men in modern times by trying to dance around this issue in order not to offend women, it has lost all sense of guiding men to be masculine and leaders of their families.
Lets take a look at all of the passages mentioning the headship of the husband, it is quite a few.
openbible.info/topics/headship
The catechism doesn’t describe in absolute detail all of the doctrine of the church but is a summary and often topics are presented in a politically correct manor. I am one who believes the Church has failed men in modern times by trying to dance around this issue in order not to offend women, it has lost all sense of guiding men to be masculine and leaders of their families.
L
LightBound
Guest
Well, this thread certainly went the way of most when it comes to that topic of submission and I can see that many of the usual participants (and a few new ones) have joined in. (I’m still waiting on one jolly good bloke to cut and paste his usual thoughts 
).
So, let’s look at what you’ve shared. You’ve screwed up and screwed up big time. You’ve repented. You converted. She is still a non-Christian, so even though we as Catholics believe the the Church (combining Sacred Tradition and the Church’s interpretation of Sacred Scripture) to be the final authority on things, she does not. Given that, it’s hard for you to accept that she did not have the same conversion experience you did and she’s still holding on to your past mistakes. What should you do? Well, you can’t force her to convert, you can’t force her to be submissive to you. The only thing you can do is love her like Christ loved the Church. You pray for her. You communicate lovingly with her. Whether she responds in like or not. You do what you as a Christian are admonished to do in Ephesians. This is how you win her over.
Quit focusing on trying to be the decision-maker. Good gracious! What big decisions can you and she not agree on? Is it things like what to get at the grocery or what movie to see or is it something that really is important such as a move to another house or even state? If you two are fighting over trivial matters, you need to seek marital counseling (and good Heavens, get it from a faithful Catholic therapist or someone on the forum will accuse me of pushing a feminist agenda on you
).
Look at the big problem first- it’s not that she won’t “submit” to you, it’s that she is still bitter over past mistakes and you two have different beliefs when it comes to faith. Work on that, again, love her like Christ loved the Church, because you won’t win her over or convert her by any other way.
).So, let’s look at what you’ve shared. You’ve screwed up and screwed up big time. You’ve repented. You converted. She is still a non-Christian, so even though we as Catholics believe the the Church (combining Sacred Tradition and the Church’s interpretation of Sacred Scripture) to be the final authority on things, she does not. Given that, it’s hard for you to accept that she did not have the same conversion experience you did and she’s still holding on to your past mistakes. What should you do? Well, you can’t force her to convert, you can’t force her to be submissive to you. The only thing you can do is love her like Christ loved the Church. You pray for her. You communicate lovingly with her. Whether she responds in like or not. You do what you as a Christian are admonished to do in Ephesians. This is how you win her over.
Quit focusing on trying to be the decision-maker. Good gracious! What big decisions can you and she not agree on? Is it things like what to get at the grocery or what movie to see or is it something that really is important such as a move to another house or even state? If you two are fighting over trivial matters, you need to seek marital counseling (and good Heavens, get it from a faithful Catholic therapist or someone on the forum will accuse me of pushing a feminist agenda on you
).Look at the big problem first- it’s not that she won’t “submit” to you, it’s that she is still bitter over past mistakes and you two have different beliefs when it comes to faith. Work on that, again, love her like Christ loved the Church, because you won’t win her over or convert her by any other way.
H
holy_face
Guest
Well mine and thousands of others’ experiences would beg to differ that she won’t submit and you can’t win her over.
I agree with LightBound that he first must work on correcting himself, which is a major part of MMSL and what I have been saying the whole time.
Improving yourself will be the most effective measure, but some of that measure will be becoming more masculine and becoming more of a leader slowly but surely. Change your bad habits first.
Then simply lifting weights and having a more masculine appearance will go a long way. Dress better and become more attractive and then start using some of the skills described in the book.
Sure counseling could help, but it will most likely be the wife and the counselor ganging up on him. Without having leadership in his marriage the wife will get to forever dictate who is wrong and what is wrong with the marriage, he will be put in the position of just saying “yes dear” on a daily basis for eternity. This is quite acceptable to the feminists and beta males here in this discussion but it should not be to someone who wants to be the masculine leader of his family.
I agree with LightBound that he first must work on correcting himself, which is a major part of MMSL and what I have been saying the whole time.
Improving yourself will be the most effective measure, but some of that measure will be becoming more masculine and becoming more of a leader slowly but surely. Change your bad habits first.
Then simply lifting weights and having a more masculine appearance will go a long way. Dress better and become more attractive and then start using some of the skills described in the book.
Sure counseling could help, but it will most likely be the wife and the counselor ganging up on him. Without having leadership in his marriage the wife will get to forever dictate who is wrong and what is wrong with the marriage, he will be put in the position of just saying “yes dear” on a daily basis for eternity. This is quite acceptable to the feminists and beta males here in this discussion but it should not be to someone who wants to be the masculine leader of his family.
F
Frances_Fishers
Guest
Robowar commented that a licensed therapist meeting the couple face-to-face is more helpful than anonymous internet advice and your answer was:
Not all marriage therapists are competent. That’s a given in any field. Maybe the couple could critique the first session together and run to a different therapist if they agree they found the therapist unhelpful. Could be a bonding moment.
On the other hand, a significant number of people who claim the marriage therapist was misogynist or feminist went to therapy either fearful of (and oversensitive to) being blamed for every problem OR expecting the therapist to agree that everything was the OTHER partner’s fault and then were surprised and angered when the therapist concluded the other partner had been right about SOME things and he or she had been WRONG.
As for internet questions and answers, well … Sometimes the possibly well-meaning anonymous internet Agony Aunt/Uncle has such clear problems with their own thinking that reading their opinions - especially if they are repeated again and again over the course of hours or even days - can help a perplexed person see how NOT to approach a dilemma. That’s helpful, I guess.
Internet answers that seem based on clear thinking and compassion could be constructive, if the person posing the question gave all the relevant facts and phrased them honestly. Only that anonymous person knows.
I agree with the idea that the OP might be making up a situation to have fun on the internet, though. Let’s see -
“I (probably) forced my wife to support us both for various periods of time while I went from job to job and went to school (then dropped out) and oh, I added to the bills I wasn’t helping to pay by consuming porn and, oh yeah, I didn’t treat her well either. Then I converted to a faith that teaches I should have the headship over her and she should be submissive to my decisions. Is it a problem if she won’t buy that?”
Ann Landers would have put that in the Yale Fraternity Prank circular file.
I suppose you could.
Not all marriage therapists are competent. That’s a given in any field. Maybe the couple could critique the first session together and run to a different therapist if they agree they found the therapist unhelpful. Could be a bonding moment.
On the other hand, a significant number of people who claim the marriage therapist was misogynist or feminist went to therapy either fearful of (and oversensitive to) being blamed for every problem OR expecting the therapist to agree that everything was the OTHER partner’s fault and then were surprised and angered when the therapist concluded the other partner had been right about SOME things and he or she had been WRONG.
As for internet questions and answers, well … Sometimes the possibly well-meaning anonymous internet Agony Aunt/Uncle has such clear problems with their own thinking that reading their opinions - especially if they are repeated again and again over the course of hours or even days - can help a perplexed person see how NOT to approach a dilemma. That’s helpful, I guess.
Internet answers that seem based on clear thinking and compassion could be constructive, if the person posing the question gave all the relevant facts and phrased them honestly. Only that anonymous person knows.
I agree with the idea that the OP might be making up a situation to have fun on the internet, though. Let’s see -
“I (probably) forced my wife to support us both for various periods of time while I went from job to job and went to school (then dropped out) and oh, I added to the bills I wasn’t helping to pay by consuming porn and, oh yeah, I didn’t treat her well either. Then I converted to a faith that teaches I should have the headship over her and she should be submissive to my decisions. Is it a problem if she won’t buy that?”
Ann Landers would have put that in the Yale Fraternity Prank circular file.
L
LightBound
Guest
I can see the wife and the counselor ganging up on him if he goes into therapy with his non-Christian wife and states he wants her to be submissive. On the other hand, if he goes into therapy with the idea he wants to help his wife move beyond his past mistakes and earn her trust so that they can communicate and function as the “one” they became when they married, instead of the “two” they are right now, it will likely have different results.
I agree that he needs to work on becoming the best man and the best husband he can be. His wife might never convert (and that’s sad and I didn’t want to say it), but if he does all he can to live out his commandment in Ephesians, by loving her like Christ loved the Church, he has did his part and the responsibility of her accepting her husband and converting falls on her, not him.
X
Xantippe
Guest
LightBound said;
“On the other hand, if he goes into therapy with the idea he wants to help his wife move beyond his past mistakes and earn her trust so that they can communicate and function as the “one” they became when they married, instead of the “two” they are right now, it will likely have different results.”
Yeah, that’s a reasonable goal for marriage counseling.
“On the other hand, if he goes into therapy with the idea he wants to help his wife move beyond his past mistakes and earn her trust so that they can communicate and function as the “one” they became when they married, instead of the “two” they are right now, it will likely have different results.”
Yeah, that’s a reasonable goal for marriage counseling.
H
holy_face
Guest
My point is not necessarily getting her to convert, that would be great but he can still work on becoming the leader in time with hard work regardless of her conversion.
My wife is not Catholic and is quite liberal actually while I am religious and quite conservative. She doesn’t have much of a problem of me assuming the headship.
I did not have to do any of this stealthy as she generally agrees with the principles of MMSL, that leadership and masculinity is much more attractive as well a something that makes her feel calmer and less aggressive in the relationship. I discussed some of the issues with her.
But your mileage may vary and I recommend not discussing it with your spouse unless you know she is open to at least some of the ideas. “Hey I am going to do some negging now” might backfire
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Again – one can read scripture with a fundamentalist protestant mind or as the Catholic Church interprets scripture.
Read the following by Pope Benedict XVI-- in his presentation of the compendium. Again take note – the CCC as the " full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives and prays in her daily life".
- Status