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Nancie_Lew
Guest
Good question. If the Bible says not to make a representation of anything in heaven than why do Catholics have statues of Mary who is in heaven?
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believers
Guest
Well… seeing how the RCC has conveniently combined the “graven images” commandment with the First and “covet” occupies the 9th and 10th commandments… Doesn’t it make you wonder what’s going on?
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believers
Guest
Well that’s easy… They are the “One True Church” and have all authority in such matters. If anything they do seems to contradict the bible… well it doesn’t. And you can’t interpret the Bible because you’re a heretic… Didn’t you get the memo?
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Nevarlander
Guest
If you follow that logic, Luke, then if you have ever referred to your father as “Father” or “my father”, then you are sinning. What Jesus meant by that statement is pretty easily understood if you understand that, IIRC (and anyone who wants can correct me if I’m wrong), in Judaism at the time there were a lot of people who would be disciples of religious scholars and say “So-and-so is my spiritual father”. Following their master’s view of the Scriptures would sometimes take the place of truly following God. Jesus is saying to not put your faith in a man, but God.
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LukeJ
Guest
Thanks Nevarlander. I have another question. The church claims to be infallable. But over time they have changed their docrines. Such as not selling indulgences anymore, and changing other docrines after the reformation. So that doesn’t make sense to me, because if they were always infallible then their doctrine wouldn’t need to change. Where they not always infallible?
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Nevarlander
Guest
Indulgences… that’s always another big question people have. The “selling of indulgences” is something that’s been commonly misinterpreted and then spread as fact. Do you understand what an indulgence is? In case you don’t, it’s a grace that remits some, or even all of the “temporal penalty” (the suffering man has to undergo for sins he committed). The pope and the bishops can set up conditions for these because we believe that “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever will be loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven” (I still don’t know the reference for this - I’m very bad with chapter and verse) applies to them as successors of the apostles. The indulgence is given for doing something good, such as saying certain prayers or, and this is great, reading the Bible for a half-hour a day. You can apply the grace God gives for doing that towards your own sins, or ask him to give it to someone else.
Now, in the Middle Ages, a potential condition for an indulgence was giving alms. The immediate application this has to Luther was that the pope at Luther’s time wanted to raise funds to renovate St. Peter’s Basilica, so he authorized people to go and collect money for this and let them know that they were receiving an indulgence from it by giving alms. There was this German monk, Johann Tetzel, who went out and really did make it sound like he was selling them. Luther quite understandably got all shirty about this.
Can you explain to me what you mean by “other doctrines”? I don’t know of anything that’s changed. There’s been some stuff that’s looked a little like it’s changed, but it’s just understood in a different way.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
ANSWERS:
Matthew 23:9, “And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in Heaven.” Notice, however, that this makes no distinction between spiritual fathers, which is what our priests are to us, and biological fathers. In other words, if you interpret this passage to say, absolutely, that no man is to be called father, you cannot distinguish between calling a priest, father, and calling the man who is married to your mother, father.
But, is that actually what this passage is saying? Or is Jesus warning us against trying to usurp the fatherhood of God? Which, in many ways, is what the Pharisees and Scribes were doing. They wanted all attention focused on them…they were leaving God, the Father, out of the equation. Which is why Jesus goes on to call them hypocrites, liars, and whitewashed tombs.
If you interpret this passage from Matthew 23 as an absolute ban against calling anyone your spiritual father, then there are some problems for you in the rest of Scripture. For example, Jesus, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, has the rich man referring to Abraham as “father” several times. Paul, in Romans chapter 4, refers to Abraham as the “father” of the uncircumcised, the Gentiles. That’s referring to spiritual fatherhood, not biological fatherhood.
In Acts 7:1-2, the first Christian martyr, Stephen, referred to the Jewish authorities and elders who were about to stone him as brothers and “fathers,” as does Paul in Acts, chapter 22. This is referring to spiritual fatherhood. So, if you interpret Matthew 23 as saying we cannot call anyone our spiritual father, then you have a problem with Jesus, Paul, Stephen, and the Holy Spirit…they must have all gotten it wrong.
It is okay to call priests “father”, just as it was okay for Jesus and Paul to call Abraham “father” and for Stephen and Paul to call the Jewish elders “father.” As long as we remember that our true Father is God the Father and that all aspects of fatherhood, biological and spiritual, are derived from Him. And as long as we do not allow anyone else to usurp that role in any way, shape, or form, as the Pharisees and Scribes were prone to do.
biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.php?id=17
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Is images of Jesus, saints, and Mary graven image, or are they Holy Image? Or why did the Jews made image of a Angels when they made the Ark? Or made a serpeant staff for?
Second, Catholics DO Not worship the statues. The statues and images are use for mediation purposes. Since these Christians saints died in Christ, they imitate him, and therefore we use the image to imitate not worship it.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The Jews made images the Ark has images of Angels on it.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Furthermore, you would have to refrain from using any synonym for Father as well.
And I just love the way Satan leaves out the previous verse and next verse when citing this one.
Matthew 23:8
8 But be not ye called Rabbi(4461): for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
**G4461 **ῥαββί rhabbi hrab-bee’
Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix; my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi, Teacher
I hope you don’t send your kids to school since Principal, Headmaster, and Teacher, Instructor all fall into this category.
Not to mention if you hold a Master’s degree, then you are a MASTER of what you have learned…
Matthew 23:10 10 Neither be ye called masters(2519); for one is you master, Christ.
**G2519 **καθηγητής kathēgētēs kath-ayg-ay-tace’
From a compound of G2596 and G2233; a guide, that is, (figuratively) a teacher: - master.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
How do you see this distinction? What is the difference, in your mind, between God’s presence and God Himself?
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JMJ_coder
Guest
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
The commandment forbids worship of them, not merely their creation. If it was a total ban on sculptures, then God sinned (impossible) when He ordered the Israelites, just moments after telling them not to make graven images, to carve two Cherubims and place them on the Ark. (Ex. 25: 18-20) There were also statues of Cherubims and other things in the Temple (1 Kgs. 6:23-29)
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
I tell you what, go tell your wife that she is in the same category as your big screen TV and tools and then we’ll talk - when you get out of the hospital.
The first two commandments, according to Protestant counting, deal with the same thing - worshiping the one true God and idolatry. Those last two commandments, according to Protestant counting, deal with two completely different things - coveting a neighbor’s wife and coveting a neighbor’s goods, just as one commandment deals with adultery and another deals with stealing.
I tell you what, go tell your wife that she is in the same category as your big screen TV and tools and then we’ll talk - when you get out of the hospital.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
I have answered this before. The selling of indulgences was an abuse, but was never part of official Catholic teaching.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
Doctrine can develop, but it doesn’t change. What doctrines do you claim changed with the Council of Trent (as opposed to developed)?
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Because God commanded it. The serpant had to be destroyed finally because people started worshipping it. We are but mere humans and God used to the staff to heal but then it was destroyed because they took their focus from God who made the staff and started worshipping the serpant instead… Hmmm kind of like how SOME catholics take it a bit to far with the statues.
Did I SAY they worshipped the images??? I made it a point to be clear on that…
To the Bolded point
Imitate? When did Peter or John (saints I believe) bow before an image?
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JoeyWarren
Guest
If he does, he’s a lot more braver than I!I tell you what, go tell your wife that she is in the same category as your big screen TV and tools and then we’ll talk - when you get out of the hospital.
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believers
Guest
They called Abraham the father because they (the Jews) were the SEED of abraham. Abraham’s descendants. This was never in reference to Abraham as a spiritual father.
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believers
Guest
Hi, I was just about to respond to that but you answered ahead of me. There’s a huge difference when God commands it and man taking it upon himself to do something on his own.
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