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believers
Guest
So what you’re saying is… that it is possible for the RCC to go astray on a monumental scale such as the selling of indulgences. An act completely contrary to the Word of God. Blasphemous and heretical.
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littledogs2424
Guest
Frankly, I can not think of even one. Just look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church - quotations from the Bible are found throughout. Please stay in the Catholic Church. You are in the right place.
Peace,
Irl
A
adrift
Guest
This was an unfounded charge. The indulgences where never sold. However, there was an appearance of them being sold.
S
Singinbeauty
Guest
Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
God can make the images because HE IS GOD. There are exceptions when it comes to Him because He can keep Himself from worshipping the images. Apparently we cannot as is evident with the snake on the staff…
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lak611
Guest
I don’t know anybody who has worshipped snakes on a staff, so, yes, it is possible for us to avoid idolatry.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
And where does it say that people worshiped the staff of Aaron?
Which version are you using? I checked the RSV, DR, Nova Vulgata, Greek Septuagint, and they all agree: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;” not any. But the next verse tells us in what sense God forbids them: “you shall not bow down to them or serve them” Only those images which are designed to be idolatrous and worshipped are forbidden. But we see that God deigns holy images to be created, even placed in His holy Temple. God is not contradicting His own law here, for holy images are not contradictory to His law.
And where does it say that people worshiped the staff of Aaron?
S
Singinbeauty
Guest
2 Kings 18
4He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
Funny how it specifies that this image had to be broken because they burned incense to it… I seem to recall candles and incense being burned when praying in front of a statue in the catholic faith…
You can avoid it… I try to every day… but I don’t think it helps to bow before a statue and pray to someone of whom it represents… even though I don’t believe that can hear you… There is a fine line between veneration and idolatry and I think that people cross it everyday…
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Singinbeauty
Guest
I was told a LONG time ago to not use anything when quoting the bible with catholics other than the King James Version. So that is what I use when I quote it. But you can see that I have bolded the word ANY in your version too… See also:
Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Do most catholics not bow before the image of the person they are praying to? God says right there NOT to bow to it… Hmmmm
Deuteronomy 4
16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth
There is just too much proof for me to keep me from the statue thing… Unless I can convince myself that it is ok I am not going to do it… To me, God has clearly said DON’T DO IT.
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lak611
Guest
There are no Catholics who burn incense in front of statues. Incense is only used during Mass at the altar, not by a statue.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
But candles are lit, yes? I am not an expert so I can concede that the incense might not be burned though I do believe that some catholics have done it. But since I don’t have a source I will leave it at that… Thank you for the explanation!
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Singinbeauty
Guest
There is still more…
Deuteronomy 4
23Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
24For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
God is not playing around with this people… why would this be in the bible so many times if it was not to be taken seriously?
Why is it SO obvious to me?
Deuteronomy 4
23Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
24For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
God is not playing around with this people… why would this be in the bible so many times if it was not to be taken seriously?
Why is it SO obvious to me?
K
kellie
Guest
God quite clearly states, every time He tells us in the Bible not to make graven images, that He is the One True God
He is telling us not to make an idol and worship that idol as if that idol has the power of God
He literally means not to ever think that the actual lump of wood or clay that the image is made from can contain some sort of power
That is what He is defining idoltry as
He is not saying not to ever make a statue in the image of Mary and bow down to it and believe that the actual statue or Mary herself has the same power of God
Catholics only worship God, we know only God is divine and the only one who is all-powerful, all-knowing, our Creator
We love Mary and all the Saints, we have pictures of them and statues, the same as we have pictures of our family members on our mantlepieces, and statues of our sporting heroes at sports stadiums
We don’t “bow down” to them, thinking they are all-powerful, we may kneel in front of them, as a mark of respect for all they did for us however
And we may ask them to pray for us, to help us pray, and we know only God answers our prayers
He is telling us not to make an idol and worship that idol as if that idol has the power of God
He literally means not to ever think that the actual lump of wood or clay that the image is made from can contain some sort of power
That is what He is defining idoltry as
He is not saying not to ever make a statue in the image of Mary and bow down to it and believe that the actual statue or Mary herself has the same power of God
Catholics only worship God, we know only God is divine and the only one who is all-powerful, all-knowing, our Creator
We love Mary and all the Saints, we have pictures of them and statues, the same as we have pictures of our family members on our mantlepieces, and statues of our sporting heroes at sports stadiums
We don’t “bow down” to them, thinking they are all-powerful, we may kneel in front of them, as a mark of respect for all they did for us however
And we may ask them to pray for us, to help us pray, and we know only God answers our prayers
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
This is probably much better than I can say. If you have any more questions after reading this, feel free to ask.
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
This is probably much better than I can say. If you have any more questions after reading this, feel free to ask.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
Lit candles and incense are not offered as a sacrifice to the gods, as it may be in pagan religions. It is symbolic of supernatural realities. Incense is symbolic of our prayers rising up to Heaven. Candles are symbolic of prayer, among other things. Here is an article on candles and incense.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Thanx for the info…
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
No. They don’t. Do you judge by appearance when you see some old lady praying her rosary in front of the statue and say, “Look an idol worshipper!”
How could you possibly know what is in her heart? Have you been given an insight that you can read people’s hearts? I don’t think so.
Don’t judge them just because they appear to be worshipping the statues. Second, in the beginning of Christianity, there were to classes of people. The illiteral and literal. Those who can read and those who can’t. Images in the churches is used to portray scenes in the Bible.
Catholics use statues and images in their churches to reflect on the lives of saints. These statues or images are not used for worship. The center of Catholic worship in adoration is centered in the Eucharist, which we Catholics truly believe is Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.
Your post implies. The command specifically states GRAVEN images. I do not think the image of Jesus Christ is graven, nor his Blessed Mother, nor those Christians who died in the faith.
Let us look what graven image means.
noun
a material effigy that is worshipped; “thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image”; “money was his god” [syn: idol]
In the Catholic Church, there is no document that permit the faithful to worship the image or statue themselves. They use for veneration and meditation.
For example, I recite the Station of the Cross and look upon those station. Do I worship the images? No. Look at the prayer that is said.
Jesus is worship not the statue.
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LukeJ
Guest
Hi. First of all, I’d like to say thank you for answering my questions. I am a high schooler and I was baptized in the Catholic church when I was a baby. When I was really young, my parents didn’t agree with the church so the have been going to a protestant church ever since. I’ve read a few books about Catholicism, such as Scott Hahns, and it seems to me that most of the church’s doctrines make more since than what I grew up being taught. But some docrines just don’t really make since to me and there isn’t really anybody I can ask. So I’m not trying to put down the church or anything, I just want to ask some questions.
Anyways, according to this tract that my parents gave me that was written by an ex-Bishop and refutes Catholic doctrine; pretty much says that, “The Roman Church claims that it never changes, that it is always the same. In regard to it’s doctrine the Roman Church has been constantly changing and adding new inventions to the faith. It has changed its creed every century, so that now the Roman Church, instead of being an ancient religion, is simply a quilt made up of many patches, adding century after century, so that very little of the original remains; most all of it is new.” Then it goes on to give examples of the churches “inventions”:
Prayers for the dead: 300 A.D.
Worship in Latin Language: 600 A.D.
Supremacy of the Pope: 606 A.D.
Worship of the crucifix, images and relics: 788 A.D.
Holy water invented: about 1000 A.D.
Marrige of preists forbidden: 1079 A.D.
Rosary Beads invented: 1090 A.D.
Origin of the Inquisition: 1184 A.D.
Sale of Indulgences: 1190 A.D.
Auricular confession to the preist: 1215 A.D.
Transubstantiation of the wafer: 1215 A.D.
Adoration of the wafer: 1220 A.D.
Purgatory proclaimed: 1439
Apocryphal books added to the bible: 1546 A.D.
Roman tradition made equal to the Bible: 1546 A.D.
Immaculate Conception of Mary: 1854
Infallibility of the Pope: 1870 A.D.
Anyways, according to this tract that my parents gave me that was written by an ex-Bishop and refutes Catholic doctrine; pretty much says that, “The Roman Church claims that it never changes, that it is always the same. In regard to it’s doctrine the Roman Church has been constantly changing and adding new inventions to the faith. It has changed its creed every century, so that now the Roman Church, instead of being an ancient religion, is simply a quilt made up of many patches, adding century after century, so that very little of the original remains; most all of it is new.” Then it goes on to give examples of the churches “inventions”:
Prayers for the dead: 300 A.D.
Worship in Latin Language: 600 A.D.
Supremacy of the Pope: 606 A.D.
Worship of the crucifix, images and relics: 788 A.D.
Holy water invented: about 1000 A.D.
Marrige of preists forbidden: 1079 A.D.
Rosary Beads invented: 1090 A.D.
Origin of the Inquisition: 1184 A.D.
Sale of Indulgences: 1190 A.D.
Auricular confession to the preist: 1215 A.D.
Transubstantiation of the wafer: 1215 A.D.
Adoration of the wafer: 1220 A.D.
Purgatory proclaimed: 1439
Apocryphal books added to the bible: 1546 A.D.
Roman tradition made equal to the Bible: 1546 A.D.
Immaculate Conception of Mary: 1854
Infallibility of the Pope: 1870 A.D.
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lak611
Guest
You have the infamous “Boettner list”. See this thread for refutations of all of these claims. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=119919&highlight=Boettner+list
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Mannyfit75
Guest
First of All they are not inventions. Roman Catholicism by Loraine Boettner used that terminalogy which lacks any proof.
For one Pope Infallibility has been believed since days of the ECF.
Apocrypal Books were not added. They have been in the Canon of Scripture since the Council of Carthage in 396 AD, and Council of Hippo. So you got the dates all wrong.
In the Book of Revelations, the Lord is worship in the heaven, in the earth, and Under the earth. So there is a third place.
Immaculate Conception has been believed and it was pass on to us since the beginning.
I can go more in depth with this but your accusation are false.
These doctrines were affirmed what was already Believed. If you say they didn’t develop, you can throw away the Bible away because it was not until the Bible was compiled until 396 AD. Nor should you believe in the Trinity which was defined in 382 AD in the Council of Nicea.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
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