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RNRobert
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I’m glad you liked it, but you should give itsjustdave the credit since it was his blog I found it on.
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Mommyof02green
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itsjustdave1988
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Thank you RNRobert and Mommyof02green.
Does anybody suspect there is even a hint of Ellen White’s “national sunday law” prophecy brewing? I mean, WHEN is this prophecy supposed to “take effect?”
Ellen White (1911): “The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond” (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false Sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death.” (*The Great Controvery, *p. 604)
I don’t really understand how this failed prophecy has any convincing effect upon anybody anymore. Nonetheless, is anyone pressuring on the Sabbatarians to stop worshipping on Saturday? I should hope they worship God every day.
Does anybody suspect there is even a hint of Ellen White’s “national sunday law” prophecy brewing? I mean, WHEN is this prophecy supposed to “take effect?”
Ellen White (1911): “The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond” (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false Sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death.” (*The Great Controvery, *p. 604)
I don’t really understand how this failed prophecy has any convincing effect upon anybody anymore. Nonetheless, is anyone pressuring on the Sabbatarians to stop worshipping on Saturday? I should hope they worship God every day.
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Mommyof02green
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No, I don’t see it. The first to speak out AGAINST this would be the Catholic Church, seeing we worship God every day.Thank you RNRobert and Mommyof02green.
Does anybody suspect there is even a hint of Ellen White’s “national sunday law” prophecy brewing? I mean, WHEN is this prophecy supposed to “take effect?”
We also have “vigil” mass on Saturday Night…
It’s just not going to happen. It’s just another false claim. (In my opinion of course)
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RNRobert
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Goitalone has been asked this several times, and had never attempted to answer, nor has he attempted to refute our proof that Sunday worship existed before Constantine, nor has he answered our claim that no Christian s worshipped on the Sabbath. Instead he becomes like a petulant little child who says, 'You’ll see, the National Sunday law is coming soon, etc., etc.Does anybody suspect there is even a hint of Ellen White’s “national sunday law” prophecy brewing? I mean, WHEN is this prophecy supposed to “take effect?”
Or, he’ll change the subject, like asking us whether we still follow the Jewish dietary laws, another SDA shibboleth.
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dbaseII
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OK, for the record, Catholics HAD THE RIGHT to change the day of worship according to Matt 16:16 i.e. when Jesus told Peter (and his successors) “what you loose on earth, will be loosed in Heaven”!
And yes, the Catholic church DID change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. There are many reasons for this. (theological) Jesus was resurrected on a Sunday - we celebrate the Sabath on the Day of Resurrection which is the foundation and the basis for our faith (practical) The first Christians met in the Synagogues (before they got thrown out because the emperor was out to get Christians and the Jews did not want to be associated with them) and it would have made sense to NOT be there when the Jews were doing their thing on Saturday.
I don’t see the big argument on this - what’s the difference? I also don’t see a law requiring worship on one day or another in the USA - more like they are trying to do everything to run interference with us worshiping God! JMO…
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dbaseII
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Does anybody suspect there is even a hint of Ellen White’s “national sunday law” prophecy brewing? I mean, WHEN is this prophecy supposed to “take effect?”
unfortunately for those SDA’s who feel White is a prophet, in a certain configuration, her name works out to “666”. The SDA’s deny it of course, but I’ve seen the numerology and it does actually DO this. (so does Nero’s name which is thought by Bible scholars to be what the writer of Revelation was referring to but this little tidbit might be fun to bring up and annoy your local SDA person!) 
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BobCatholic
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Not only that, goitalone cannot prove that the Sabbath in the commandment is identical to Saturday on today’s calendar.Goitalone has been asked this several times, and had never attempted to answer, nor has he attempted to refute our proof that Sunday worship existed before Constantine, nor has he answered our claim that no Christian s worshipped on the Sabbath. Instead he becomes like a petulant little child who says, 'You’ll see, the National Sunday law is coming soon, etc., etc.
I brought up an objection and he can’t answer it.
Violation of sola scriptura. Can’t use extra-scriptural stuff
The continuity of the weekly cycle doesn’t mean that Jews kept the sabbath every single “Saturday” throughout history.
But what about before Julian calendar? Before that was which calendar? What about during the babylonian occupation? Their calendar? Each and every conquerer that conquered Israel had their own way of calculating their calendar. Do you think they allowed the Jews to practice their faith on the sabbath?
Can you show me the exact date of the first “7th day” sabbath? On the original Hebrew Calendar? Then continue throughout all of history and at least get to Julian calendar?
Scripture records that time and time again, the Jews FELL AWAY FROM THE PRACTICE OF THEIR FAITH. If they did, the sabbath certainly went as well.
You must show, that from that first “7th day sabbath” - calculate 7 days each and every time from that time until the present. This must be a 100% unbroken chain of sabbath observance. If there is no such proof, you have no way of knowing that saturday must be the 7th day sabbath. And you can’t know. There is no proof.
It may be the 7th day on OUR GREGORIAN CALENDAR but that’s only because you accept the authority of Pope Gregory who created that calendar!
Like I said. The real sabbath could be Wednesday as far as we know (translating from the old Hebrew Calendar consistently throughout the centuries)
Now, what is the point of this?
Simple.
I’m looking at the 7th day principle. The 7th day is not respective of a calendar. We are to work 6 days, rest and worship on the 7th. We don’t have the old Hebrew Calendar. We don’t have an unbroken chain of sabbath observance for time memoral. If we did, please find me the exact “7th day” sabbath day, based on taking the first 7th day sabbath and going every 7 days since then until today.
I used the example of a nuclear war devastating all of humanity and what happened afterwards is nobody practiced any faith until a long time passed. This happened time and time again (equivalent fashion) to the Jews. People stopped keeping track of days in order to survive. When survival is at a premium, a calendar is not that important. So it goes by the wayside.
So, in the case of the nuclear war, tell me, if people declared one day to be sabbath and went every 7 days worshipped God from then on, are they in violation of the sabbath commandment if later on they happen to find a surviving solar powered calendar which was intact from the pre war days and it said that today (their worship day) was really a wednesday? or any day not saturday?
Would God condemn them for violating the commandment?
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goitalone
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servus
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Dear RNRobert,Goitalone has been asked this several times, and had never attempted to answer, nor has he attempted to refute our proof that Sunday worship existed before Constantine, nor has he answered our claim that no Christian s worshipped on the Sabbath. Instead he becomes like a petulant little child who says, 'You’ll see, the National Sunday law is coming soon, etc., etc.
It is clear to Adventists that Sunday was in use by Christians before Constntine. this is evident by the epistles of Ignatius, Barnabus, Justin and others. Objective research by Catholic and Protestant Scholars indicates that Sunday came into use by Christians in the mid 2nd century. Before that, they kept the Sabbath, and after that, most still kept the Sabbath. In the Epistle of the church at Smyrna concerning the martyrdom of polycarp, Saturday is called, “the Great Sabbath”. Ignatius says in Magnesians, “let every friend of Christ, after he has kept the Sabbath keep also the Lord’s day…” (The CCC quotes the condensed version of his epistle which omits this). Athanasius said “we keep the sabbath not because we are judaizers, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of Sabbath”.
Socrates Scholasticus (5th century) said that almost every Church in the world assembles on the Sabbath for worship, and to celebrate the mysteries (Lord’s supper)" the whole world except for Rome and Alexandria" Ecclesistical Hist. b. 5, ch. 22
I could continue for pages and pages of quotations showing that Christians worshipped on the Sabbath, and that more widespread that Sunday observance until about the 6th century.
Sunday came into the Church about the 2nd century innocently enough, as a way to honor Jesus, celebrating the ressurection. However, Jesus said “every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up”.
Jesus and the Apostles had no intention of changing the Sabbath. Think about it, if the law could be changed, why did Christ have to die for our transgression of the law? Why didn;t God just change the law after adam and eve sinned? The cross is an eternal testiment that God’s law cannot be changed. Now did Christ die because we broke Sunday, or the Sabbath?
Pax,
Servus
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JoeyWarren
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On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 14 (A.D. 90).
“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.” Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).
“The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest–abstraction from ills–preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord’s Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth–a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).
“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.” Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).
“The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest–abstraction from ills–preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord’s Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth–a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).
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goitalone
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Cheers Servus on!
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goitalone
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Hey Servus, the 144,000…thats got me all out wondering now about that guy Ed White in my forum who said he thinks that it’s a literal 144,000 that will be the only ones who make it off the earth alive.
That would mean there would be about 6 billion people who will die at the end.
I dunno, I still feel it’s a literal 144,000 personally…there are too many paralells to the disciples time and in the Bible of so many other things.
So, I think it will be more or less the 144,000 last days paralelled sort of disciples to teach God’s last days message to the great mulitude which John see’s after the sealing of the 144, 000.
That would mean there would be about 6 billion people who will die at the end.
I dunno, I still feel it’s a literal 144,000 personally…there are too many paralells to the disciples time and in the Bible of so many other things.
So, I think it will be more or less the 144,000 last days paralelled sort of disciples to teach God’s last days message to the great mulitude which John see’s after the sealing of the 144, 000.
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servus
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Dear Joey,
Your correct. There are many other quotations as well which speak of the lord’s day. And just as many about the Sabbath. However, Scripture, and not the fathers should form the foundation of out faith.
Pax,
servus
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RNRobert
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Christ did not die because we broke the Sabbath. The Original Sin of Adam and Eve was in disobeying God’s commandment regarding eating from the tree of good and evil.
I’m not an expert on the ECF, other Catholics who are better versed on them can refute your claims better.
I will say this though: I know when when somebody is contradicting itself. SDA literature says that that Christians did not worship on Sunday until Constantine changed it. Goitalone made the same claim in post 244. When we proved from the ECF that Christians were worshipping on Sunda, you came here with this song and dance that it started in the 2nd century as a way to “honor Jesus.” So,
which version of the SDA “gospel” is correct?
Also, the letter from St Ingatius that Joey Warren quoted a few posts ago (which states that they are worshiping on the Lord’s Day instead of the Sabbath) was written in the first few years of the 2nd century, and since Ignatius learned the faith from the mouth of the Apostle John himself, indicates that Sunday worship must have been going on for some time, i.e., in the first century.
A couple questions:
The early Christians vigorously opposed any attempts to distort or corruprt their faith, and many accepted a martyr’s death rather than compromise one iota. If Sabbath keeping was that important to the early Christians as you claim, why did they roll over on this issue?
Jesus claimed he would “be with us always” and the “gates of hell would not prevail” against his church. If Sabbath keeping was that important, why did God allow his church to be corrupted, and why we he allow his followers to be deluded for centuries until “prophetess” E.G. White appeared in the 19th century to show them the way?
Please don’t mention any “secret underground church.” Secular history records many sects who broke away from the Catholic Church through the centuries, but none ever broke away due to an issue over Sabbath-keeping. In White’s literature the only groups she mentions are the Waldensians and the Albigensians. Neither one was Sabbatarian, and the Albigeneses were recycled Manicheans who thought ritual suicide was a virtue.
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RNRobert
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A few posts back I posted a link to itsjustdave1988’s blog that had an article about the Sabbath. I’ve decided to post it here in its entirety. The words in bold are the original:
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goitalone
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Like I said before…I already feel the sealing has begun…you have taken your stand for your Pope and Sunday and Mary and whatever else.
And we have taken our stand for the 4th commandment and whatever goes along with it…even if by death of persecution as the Bible has foretold.
And we have taken our stand for the 4th commandment and whatever goes along with it…even if by death of persecution as the Bible has foretold.
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RNRobert
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You believe the 144,000 in Revelation is literal. There have been millions of Christians over the past 2000 years. How do you know that number hasn’t already been filled up. Besides, the SDA church has only been around for 150 years or so. Odds are, that number was filled up before your sect even came into existence.
I “take my stand” for Mary because she is the Mother of Our Savior (Theotokos, or “God-Bearer” as the Orthodox call her) and deserves that respect (ALL generations shall call her blessed, as she says in Luke). I “take my stand” for the Pope because he received the keys of Peter to bind and loose. I “take my stand” for Sunday because like St Ignatius, I “have come into a possession of a new hope.” And most of all, I take my stand for the Catholic Church, not because I amd deceived or a devil worshipper, but because it is THE CHURCH created by Christ, not some 19th century sect that had its roots in a false prophet (William Miller, although that description could also be applied to E.G. White).
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JoeyWarren
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Why can’t you even try to answer the rebuttal? He gave Expert Jewish Scholarship concerning the Sabbath. At least be a man and try to interact with it.
God has taken our stand for us. God chose the Pope, Mary, and Sunday.
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